Alchemist = Bombs or Bust


Classes

Liberty's Edge

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I realize that there are limited options in the playtest, but I really hope there are plans for more non-bomb related Alchemist feats in the full book. I love playing poison or elixer oriented Alchemists, but as it stands, there really isn't a way to focus on either of those as an Alchemist, since almost all of your feats are based on using or modifying bombs and nothing else.

Just as an example, the first feat you'll want if you're an Alchemist that wants to poison people isn't available until level 10. This is... disappointing.


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I was hoping from the original alchemist blog that there should be good options for several playstyles from level one. Several of which would completely different bombs.

You should be able to make a full support/healer alchemist, a poison/weapon blanch alchemist or a mutigen alchemist out of the box without having to take bomb options at all.

The fact that the damage increases they get while leveling up only apply to bombs and not other alchemical items seems like a problematic and unnecessarily limiting game design to me.


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JRutterbush wrote:

I realize that there are limited options in the playtest, but I really hope there are plans for more non-bomb related Alchemist feats in the full book. I love playing poison or elixer oriented Alchemists, but as it stands, there really isn't a way to focus on either of those as an Alchemist, since almost all of your feats are based on using or modifying bombs and nothing else.

Just as an example, the first feat you'll want if you're an Alchemist that wants to poison people isn't available until level 10. This is... disappointing.

Poisoner feat isn't that great to start with.

If you want to effectively poison stuff you need some way to apply potent elixir poisons and use those.

From what I can tell, the 3 ways I've found to do that were a) the level 12 feat (which is junk cause it doubles the RP cost) b) the extend feat that lets quick Alchemy elixirs last 1 more round (which is junk because too many actions) and c) rogue multiclass which is like (a) but tons better because it doesn't cost RP and you can still take it faster than your own feature even if it's multiclass.

Speaking frankly:
There is absolutely no reason alchemists don't get baseline Class DC to what they are doing, LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS DOES


Wolfism wrote:

I was hoping from the original alchemist blog that there should be good options for several playstyles from level one. Several of which would completely different bombs.

You should be able to make a full support/healer alchemist, a poison/weapon blanch alchemist or a mutigen alchemist out of the box without having to take bomb options at all.

The fact that the damage increases they get while leveling up only apply to bombs and not other alchemical items seems like a problematic and unnecessarily limiting game design to me.

Empower only works on 1st level bombs. The other elixers that can scale have higher level versions that when you get to that level you can put in your formula book and prepare for that day already. So things like healing potions don't require something like empowerment because that is already a built in option for higher tier versions of that item.


shroudb wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:

I realize that there are limited options in the playtest, but I really hope there are plans for more non-bomb related Alchemist feats in the full book. I love playing poison or elixer oriented Alchemists, but as it stands, there really isn't a way to focus on either of those as an Alchemist, since almost all of your feats are based on using or modifying bombs and nothing else.

Just as an example, the first feat you'll want if you're an Alchemist that wants to poison people isn't available until level 10. This is... disappointing.

Poisoner feat isn't that great to start with.

If you want to effectively poison stuff you need some way to apply potent elixir poisons and use those.

From what I can tell, the 3 ways I've found to do that were a) the level 12 feat (which is junk cause it doubles the RP cost) b) the extend feat that lets quick Alchemy elixirs last 1 more round (which is junk because too many actions) and c) rogue multiclass which is like (a) but tons better because it doesn't cost RP and you can still take it faster than your own feature even if it's multiclass.

Speaking frankly:
There is absolutely no reason alchemists don't get baseline Class DC to what they are doing, LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS DOES

I agree with the DC stuff it is both weird and currently you can get it but it is a feat tax to do so. I hate calling things a feat tax but it pretty much is exactly how it is currently implemented for alchemists. You have to burn feats to make them perform as expected.

For poisons their DC's tend to be pretty high anyway so it is less of an issue than some of their other item.

Some of the poison stuff is pretty solid even at low level. The damage is either as good as your bomb or better for a single target depending if the target saves at all or not and most also have some secondary debilitating effect which is good. I think in the full book they could due to flesh them out a bit more and maybe clean up how alchemists DC's work. You should always have the option to use your own DC if it is better than what you are making.


kaid wrote:
shroudb wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:

I realize that there are limited options in the playtest, but I really hope there are plans for more non-bomb related Alchemist feats in the full book. I love playing poison or elixer oriented Alchemists, but as it stands, there really isn't a way to focus on either of those as an Alchemist, since almost all of your feats are based on using or modifying bombs and nothing else.

Just as an example, the first feat you'll want if you're an Alchemist that wants to poison people isn't available until level 10. This is... disappointing.

Poisoner feat isn't that great to start with.

If you want to effectively poison stuff you need some way to apply potent elixir poisons and use those.

From what I can tell, the 3 ways I've found to do that were a) the level 12 feat (which is junk cause it doubles the RP cost) b) the extend feat that lets quick Alchemy elixirs last 1 more round (which is junk because too many actions) and c) rogue multiclass which is like (a) but tons better because it doesn't cost RP and you can still take it faster than your own feature even if it's multiclass.

Speaking frankly:
There is absolutely no reason alchemists don't get baseline Class DC to what they are doing, LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS DOES

I agree with the DC stuff it is both weird and currently you can get it but it is a feat tax to do so. I hate calling things a feat tax but it pretty much is exactly how it is currently implemented for alchemists. You have to burn feats to make them perform as expected.

For poisons their DC's tend to be pretty high anyway so it is less of an issue than some of their other item.

Some of the poison stuff is pretty solid even at low level. The damage is either as good as your bomb or better for a single target depending if the target saves at all or not and most also have some secondary debilitating effect which is good. I think in the full book they could due to flesh them out a bit more and maybe clean up...

Poisons are tricky to think they have a DC of level appropriate.

for starters, the BEST DC they have is -1 to -3 compared to Class DC (as levels rise and you don't get expert/master/legendary Class DC, again, the only one).

Then there's this simple thing:

Only level appropriate Poisons are back just -1 to -3

but what IF you want another effect since there's usually only 1 (injury) poison every two levels or so. (and highest stops at level 13 mind you, after that there's not a single injury poison, but I hope this is just for playtest).

What if you want to use the sleep poison. Nope. That's only at level 1 with a DC 13.

What if you want the sluggish condition but the "level appropriate" poison has the flat footed instead

etc

So taking poisoner just brings them up to +0 to -1 compared to other classes. Plus, taking poisoner basically makes potent alchemy redudant, the only worthwhile thing with DC in your lists is the poisons either way (deafen on thunder bomb is the only othe DC that exists in total i think)

So, 2 feats and you're still less than others and again that's only on the minority of things you can craft (the 1-2 level appropriate poisons) and all of your old poison recipes are basically worthless.

but wait you'll say! Poison touch! Nice. At 12 level now, and three feats in, and as a full round (craft, apply, attack) you can spend 2 RP to poison a target. As opposed to Advanced alchemy using 0.5RP/poison, 4 times less.

So for 4x the RP cost, 11 levels later, 3 feats, and a full round action, you finally get to poison something with level appropriate (without ANY prof bonus ofc) DC! (p.s. IF you start adjustent. If not, you'll need a 4th feat, enduring elixirs to actually pull it off)

Having Scaling DC to your abilities should have been the very first thing to have. Baseline. Without only working on the Quick but on everything you craft. Like, I don't know, everyone else!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm not sure about all crafted items - Rangers need a feat to get scaling DCs to snares.

But certainly all class features should have class DCs, like every other class. That shouldn't even be discussion.

Alchemists are also the only class that doesn't have an at-will ability.


Well, the Class DC wouldn't help much currently because Alchemists do not increase their proficiency bonuses either. Poisons are the most obvious because they greatly suffer from this.

Bombs only get a +2 item bonus to hit, but no proficiency bonuses. Meanwhile martial (for AC) and caster classes (for TAC and Saves) naturally scale up.

Mutagen bonuses are also item bonuses, meaning that a number of their boosts are made irrelevant by level-appropriate gear with item bonuses (item bonuses don't stack with other item bonuses). Meanwhile the drawbacks weigh you down since those are item penalties.

The issue is bigger than just giving them class DC to alchemy stuff to start. They should increase their proficiency for Class DC, bomb attack rolls, and mutagen item bonuses to Expert (12th), Master (16th), and Legendary (19th) just like spellcasters. At the very least they should gain Master proficiency to their alchemy by the end game.


MaxAstro wrote:

I'm not sure about all crafted items - Rangers need a feat to get scaling DCs to snares.

But certainly all class features should have class DCs, like every other class. That shouldn't even be discussion.

Alchemists are also the only class that doesn't have an at-will ability.

oh, I'm not talking about crafted items. (Alchemists don't even have the option for scaling DCs for that) I'm talking about Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy.

potent alchemy and posoner feats could be remade into affecting the crafted items once Alchemists get baseline scaling DC to their abilities...


kaid wrote:


Empower only works on 1st level bombs. The other elixers that can scale have higher level versions that when you get to that level you can put in your formula book and prepare for that day already. So things like healing potions don't require something like empowerment because that is already a built in option for higher tier versions of that item.

IIRC, all bombs are first-level.


All bombs are level 1. So they will always be affected by empower bombs from 3rd level and onward.


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I kinda want them to introduce liquid blades as an option for poisoner alchemists. A weapon that benefits from empower weapons and bomb proficiency, but is a melee weapon that lasts 1 minute. That you can store a poison in letting you lead with a poison. Introduce feats that let you make the poison stored in the blade last for more attack rolls. Also, agree that alchemist should use class DC for poisons made with Advanced Alchemy, rather than the default. Of course, this probably won't be core.

Also, I think alchemist needs some at-will alchemy ability. Right now, if they run out of bombs they are SOL. Spellcasters get at-will cantrips to give them a magical feel and a spammable attack. Martial classes don't have many uses/day features to begin with, and the few that they do have tend to enhance at-will features that fit their theme. Alchemists that run out of bombs and resonance have no alchemy-themed ability to default to. Right now I'm working with stocking up on cheap oil flasks and eating the untrained penalties and 45% chance they don't work, just so I don't fall back on a crossbow.

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