Buff Intelligence


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


With almost all non-Int based classes getting quite a few extra base skills now (some of them needed them, others not so much), plus with decoupling Int from Knowledge skills (Nature and Religion using Wis now, Good change imo) we now have:

Str:
Melee attack/damage
Bulk

Dex:
AC
Reflex saves
Ranged attack

Con:
HP
Fort saves

Int:
Extra Skills (but not really)

Wis:
Will saves
Initiative
Perception

Cha:
RP
Social skills

Int is by far the worst stat atm. Really, the only reason to raise or care about Int is if your class forces you to do so.

It needs SOMETHING

Potential (minor) buffs it can easily receive:
-Medicine: Switch to be Int based. It makes zero sense for a science to be wisdom based.
-More bonus languages (instead of only gaining one at +2, give one more at +4 and one more at +6)
-All Recall Knowledge rolls can be used with either their skill stat OR with Int stat, whichever is higher
-Deception can be used with either Cha OR Int, whichever is higher
-Extra Lore skills trained (1 per +1)
-Initiative can be based on Int instead of Perc (you think faster= you react faster)


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I notice you give charisma extra weight because of the skills that use it, but not intelligence. Or any of the other stats for that matter.

Personally, I'm seeing Con as the dump stat (considering dump is more "ignore"). It factors into a save and HP, both of which you can get more of with (generally not great) general feats. And HP you can probably wait until 7th level for anyway because race gives a decent-sized booster shot of HP at first level. Int factors into quite a few skills as well as the number of skills you get each level.


Paradozen wrote:

I notice you give charisma extra weight because of the skills that use it, but not intelligence. Or any of the other stats for that matter.

Personally, I'm seeing Con as the dump stat (considering dump is more "ignore"). It factors into a save and HP, both of which you can get more of with (generally not great) general feats. And HP you can probably wait until 7th level for anyway because race gives a decent-sized booster shot of HP at first level. Int factors into quite a few skills as well as the number of skills you get each level.

HP you can certainly not wait, trust me. 1 crit can mean your death at early levels.

Same for Fort. Which is the most important save in the game (imo), especially with the new Dying rules. All the playtests so far, i think that Fort is my most rolled save.

All 3 mental stats get the same amount of Skills keyed to them 4 (excluding fluff profession skill, Lore)

I gave more importance to Cha skills because I feel that social encounters make up a lot of the game.

Knowledges are split between Wis and Int, while both Wis and Int have some circumstantial skills as well (crafting, survival, etc) Cha is purely social skills.

So, skill wise, I do feel that Cha has the edge as the most useful all-around skills, hence the mention.

also, you're using outdated information of the previous edition:
Int has NOTHING to do with skills/level. Only level increases skills gained.


shroudb wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

I notice you give charisma extra weight because of the skills that use it, but not intelligence. Or any of the other stats for that matter.

Personally, I'm seeing Con as the dump stat (considering dump is more "ignore"). It factors into a save and HP, both of which you can get more of with (generally not great) general feats. And HP you can probably wait until 7th level for anyway because race gives a decent-sized booster shot of HP at first level. Int factors into quite a few skills as well as the number of skills you get each level.

HP you can certainly not wait, trust me. 1 crit can mean your death at early levels.

Same for Fort. Which is the most important save in the game (imo), especially with the new Dying rules. All the playtests so far, i think that Fort is my most rolled save.

All 3 mental stats get the same amount of Skills keyed to them 4 (excluding fluff profession skill, Lore)

I gave more importance to Cha skills because I feel that social encounters make up a lot of the game.

Knowledges are split between Wis and Int, while both Wis and Int have some circumstantial skills as well (crafting, survival, etc) Cha is purely social skills.

So, skill wise, I do feel that Cha has the edge as the most useful all-around skills, hence the mention.

also, you're using outdated information of the previous edition:
Int has NOTHING to do with skills/level. Only level increases skills gained.

Right, sorry, only the number of skills you don't suck at at level 1. And, most of the other levels, unless you want to pass on being an expert+ in skills.

As for skills, I agree that social skills can be incredibly important. So can knowing what a magic item does. Or what the enemy is. I see the latter 2 used more than the former set in most games that aren't focused on social situations though. IMO, neither side gets an edge here.


Paradozen wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

I notice you give charisma extra weight because of the skills that use it, but not intelligence. Or any of the other stats for that matter.

Personally, I'm seeing Con as the dump stat (considering dump is more "ignore"). It factors into a save and HP, both of which you can get more of with (generally not great) general feats. And HP you can probably wait until 7th level for anyway because race gives a decent-sized booster shot of HP at first level. Int factors into quite a few skills as well as the number of skills you get each level.

HP you can certainly not wait, trust me. 1 crit can mean your death at early levels.

Same for Fort. Which is the most important save in the game (imo), especially with the new Dying rules. All the playtests so far, i think that Fort is my most rolled save.

All 3 mental stats get the same amount of Skills keyed to them 4 (excluding fluff profession skill, Lore)

I gave more importance to Cha skills because I feel that social encounters make up a lot of the game.

Knowledges are split between Wis and Int, while both Wis and Int have some circumstantial skills as well (crafting, survival, etc) Cha is purely social skills.

So, skill wise, I do feel that Cha has the edge as the most useful all-around skills, hence the mention.

also, you're using outdated information of the previous edition:
Int has NOTHING to do with skills/level. Only level increases skills gained.

Right, sorry, only the number of skills you don't suck at at level 1. And, most of the other levels, unless you want to pass on being an expert+ in skills.

As for skills, I agree that social skills can be incredibly important. So can knowing what a magic item does. Or what the enemy is. I see the latter 2 used more than the former set in most games that aren't focused on social situations though. IMO, neither side gets an edge here.

Knowledge skills are equally split beetween Wis and Int, no longer the province of Int. Int has Arcane and Occult. Wis has Religion and Nature.

A 18 Int wizard starts with ONE more skill trained compared to the 10 Int cleric. So "Identifing magical items" and "Identifying Creatures" is as much the Wizard's job right now as it is the Cleric's.

That's why one of my suggestions is to to simply allow Int to be used for ALL Recall knowledges if it's higher (so, not nerfing the other stats at all, just giving Int an extra use).

As an example, The cleric will still be equally good as he is right now to identify what the undead in front of him does (since religion is Wis based) but now, the well read Wizard, will be equally as good.

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Also dump stats are definitly set up to be a thing with the way Potent items work. I think almost every optimized character will try to pick a sts too ignore and work towards getting that item as soon as possible. a +8 to +10 to a single stat is way to good to miss out on.


Christopher Van Horn wrote:
Also dump stats are definitly set up to be a thing with the way Potent items work. I think almost every optimized character will try to pick a sts too ignore and work towards getting that item as soon as possible. a +8 to +10 to a single stat is way to good to miss out on.

You can only have one potent item though, most characters will find boosting their main stat by 2 is better then boosting one they felt comfortable not increasing over 14 level by 8 or 10.


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I think allowing int to be the key skill for all recall knowledges and probably medicine too makes a lot of sense. I think since there currently isn't a way other than multiclassing to gain more signature skills giving that to int would help as well.

You are focusing a lot on the Wizard vs Cleric to reach the conclusion that Int doesn't really give more skill proficiencies if that's a problem its one of class design. If clerics get too many skills or wizards get too few that's a problem with those classes not with the ability score system itself.

A better comparison point might be a paladin who has no class features keying off either ability and wants to wear heavy armor, after they boost their dex to 12 or 14 are they going to boost int or wis next?

To them

Wis boost gives:
+1 Will save, +1 Perception
+1 to Medicine, Nature, Religion, and Survival

Int boost gives:
+1 to Arcana, Crafting, Lore, Occultism, and Society
and effectively +2 to one skill that they haven't yet trained as well as unlocking trained uses.

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, for everyone but Rogues, your Int mod is a very significant portion of your total number of trained skills. It's a bit less so than in PF1, but it's still pretty meaningful. Everyone now also has at least one Int Skill (the free Lore) and Int remains the stat for more skills than anything else (followed by Cha and Wis, and then Dex).

And it remains significant as you level, because most of your skill ranks as you increase in level the system strongly encourages you to focus into raising existing Skills, rather than buying new ones. There's a Feat to buy new ones...but it requires Int 12.


Bardarok wrote:

I think allowing int to be the key skill for all recall knowledges and probably medicine too makes a lot of sense. I think since there currently isn't a way other than multiclassing to gain more signature skills giving that to int would help as well.

You are focusing a lot on the Wizard vs Cleric to reach the conclusion that Int doesn't really give more skill proficiencies if that's a problem its one of class design. If clerics get too many skills or wizards get too few that's a problem with those classes not with the ability score system itself.

A better comparison point might be a paladin who has no class features keying off either ability and wants to wear heavy armor, after they boost their dex to 12 or 14 are they going to boost int or wis next?

To them

Wis boost gives:
+1 Will save, +1 Perception
+1 to Medicine, Nature, Religion, and Survival

Int boost gives:
+1 to Arcana, Crafting, Lore, Occultism, and Society
and effectively +2 to one skill that they haven't yet trained as well as unlocking trained uses.

if i was making a paladin, for me the choice would be clear, no?

Wis gives a bonus to 3 combat stats (Initiative being more often than not Perception)

and the knowledge it gives (religion) is more close to my class either way compared to Int

The only reason I would ever want to boost Int would be if i couldn't repair my shield with craft without boosting it, but Repair is an easy DC, so I see no reason to go for Int.

Similary for classes like rogue, ranger, etc

As i stated, and i trully believe it, apart from Wizard and Alchemist who are both forced to go Int, I see no reason why a class would want to boost Int more than what they start with.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, for everyone but Rogues, your Int mod is a very significant portion of your total number of trained skills. It's a bit less so than in PF1, but it's still pretty meaningful. Everyone now also has at least one Int Skill (the free Lore) and Int remains the stat for more skills than anything else (followed by Cha and Wis, and then Dex).

And it remains significant as you level, because most of your skill ranks as you increase in level the system strongly encourages you to focus into raising existing Skills, rather than buying new ones. There's a Feat to buy new ones...but it requires Int 12.

"Lore" is the old "Profession" skill, it's VERY limited in what it can do as a standalone skill.

With "Lore" being the old "Profession" The difference in skills isn't that much since Int lost half of the knowledges. It's 5 (WITH the lore in it) for Int, and 4 for Wisdom and 4 for Cha. That's not really saying a lot.

As for being the bulk of your skills... it isn't really.

Every one has a free trained "Lore" (Profession) from Background. On top of that:

Those classes certainly dont need more than 10:

Rogue has like 10 skills
Bard has 7+int (plus bardic lore if he wants and VP), so he doesn't need Int at all
Ranger has 6+int, he doesn't need any more
Sorc has either 9 (probably an errata) or 5+Int doesn't need more
Cleric has 5+Int so he doesn't need Into at all
Paladin has 4+int, he doesn't need any more
Druid (after the errata) has 4+Int but most of his stuff has been rolled into Nature

These classes MAY need a 12 Int:

Barb has 3+Int, again usually will be Intimidate, athletics, acrobatics, but 12 int will also give him survival
Fighter has 3+Int, he'll need one more usually
Alchemist has 3+Int

Last of all
Wizard has 2+Int... I mean that's purely bullying at this point


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Okay so what if you let Int boost Religion, Nature, and Medicine as well?

Does int need to boost combat in some way to be competitive?


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I confess, I have made a number of characters, and while none of them are Wizards or Alchemists, I have not seen a compelling reason to invest in intelligence over any of the other statistics.

I find this unfortunate since I played a number of non-Int classes with fairly high Int in PF1, since 2 points of Int in PF1 translates to "max ranks in a skill" while 2 points of Int in PF2 translates to "trained in another skill."


Bardarok wrote:

Okay so what if you let Int boost Religion, Nature, and Medicine as well?

Does int need to boost combat in some way to be competitive?

Hence why I proposed it could also substitute for Initiative if the player wants (Thinks faster = Reacts faster)


Initiative seems off brand for Int. Giving extra skill boosts every time you get them would be too much but maybe if you got Int modifier additional boosts at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th lvls. Or something like that.


What if a starting Int of 14 gives an additional signature skill?


Bardarok wrote:
Initiative seems off brand for Int. Giving extra skill boosts every time you get them would be too much but maybe if you got Int modifier additional boosts at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th lvls. Or something like that.

i believe that additional skill ranks are a bit too much given that everyone else except Rogue only maxes 3 skills.

plus, I simply don't like it when on a system that's supposed to reward +1s you get random increases for random values (that extra language at 14 int is triggering me so much...)

Plus, imo, Int is BETTER suited than Wis for initiative. So what IF you saw something better? You're still processing it.

Intelligence also represents sharp wit, and sharp wit is almost synonymous to Initiative


Yah that's probably too much. Games always have breakpoints so I don't see the Int 14 giving a language as too big of a problem. All heavy armor users want Dex 12 or 14 and no higher.

Playing off of what PossibleCabbage said what if at Int 14 and Int 18 (and maybe int 22) you got both another signature skill and enough skill boost to take it to legendary.


Does int represent sharp wit? conversational wit would be charisma, reacting quickly would be dexterity, noticing things would be wisdom. Intelligence is knowledge and reason not speed of thought.


Bardarok wrote:
Does int represent sharp wit? conversational wit would be charisma, reacting quickly would be dexterity, noticing things would be wisdom. Intelligence is knowledge and reason not speed of thought.

Dexterity is no longer "reacting quickly" it's just "hand-eye coordination" (it no longer affects initiative)

hence I proposed Int to be "reacting quickly"

Extra signature and Skill ranks at 18/22 would work though, it's just 2 more skills and it gives an incentive for Rogue to pick Int for at least int 18.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
What if a starting Int of 14 gives an additional signature skill?

Bad idea. Choosing a signature skill is not a decision that should be forced on players of 1st level characters.


David knott 242 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
What if a starting Int of 14 gives an additional signature skill?
Bad idea. Choosing a signature skill is not a decision that should be forced on players of 1st level characters.

Most if not all of your characters signature skills are chosen at level one by your choice of class.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
What if a starting Int of 14 gives an additional signature skill?

i would raise that to 18 and 22 actually.

if everything stopped at 14, there would be no reason at all to raise it over that. It would just be an "early stat tax" instead of a dedicated bonus if you raised intelligence.

18 is esily achievable by level 10 for anyone willing to start with a 14, or by level 15 if you started with just a 12.

-------------

Alternative... sticking with the skill theme:

what IF Inteligence lowered the level requirement for Skill ranks and Skill feats by it's bonus.

So, at 14 int you can get master at level 5 as an example (7-2) and pick up skill feats with level requirement 7 at level 5, and Legendary at 13 instead of 15

Even with a 18 int i don't think that would be broken (legendary skills and feats at level 11 instead of 15)


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Bardarok wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
What if a starting Int of 14 gives an additional signature skill?
Bad idea. Choosing a signature skill is not a decision that should be forced on players of 1st level characters.
Most if not all of your characters signature skills are chosen at level one by your choice of class.

Exactly. You aren't directly choosing your signature skills -- you are choosing your class and getting certain signature skills as a side effect of that choice. That is a critical distinction.


David knott 242 wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
What if a starting Int of 14 gives an additional signature skill?
Bad idea. Choosing a signature skill is not a decision that should be forced on players of 1st level characters.
Most if not all of your characters signature skills are chosen at level one by your choice of class.

Exactly. You aren't directly choosing your signature skills -- you are choosing your class and getting certain signature skills as a side effect of that choice. That is a critical distinction.

So.. you're saying its too difficult to choose an additional signature skill? It's basically the same choice as choosing which skill to put your bonus trained skills from int into and if you don't like it as a variable feature you could always retrain it.


shroudb wrote:


Dexterity is no longer "reacting quickly" it's just "hand-eye coordination" (it no longer affects initiative)

Not if I am sneaking! A rogue or any other high DX class can choose to use dex for initiative if they wish.


Kerobelis wrote:
shroudb wrote:


Dexterity is no longer "reacting quickly" it's just "hand-eye coordination" (it no longer affects initiative)
Not if I am sneaking! A rogue or any other high DX class can choose to use dex for initiative if they wish.

correct.

And that's why I'm suggesting allowing Int for Init in place of Perc.

There are already occasions you don't roll Perc (stealth when you're sneaking, social skill during a social encounter, like a bar brawl, etc)

so the new Initiative system wants to be flexible to accommodate different rolls in it. Why can't one of those rolls be a use for a junky stat?

it's a win-win!


While this is varying into off topic, I find the justifying using a skill for initiative to be unnecessary. There was nothing wrong with the PF1 system. Now people will try to game their best stat for initiative.

Or, just pick a stat for initiative (if we are worried DX is too powerful) and be consistent with it. In your case (@ shroudb) you are suggesting intelligence. I would be fine, but I think people would argue about it (as DX = reactions or WS = perception would make more logical sense). In the end you say INT modifies intelligence for stat balance reasons...


Kerobelis wrote:

While this is varying into off topic, I find the justifying using a skill for initiative to be unnecessary. There was nothing wrong with the PF1 system. Now people will try to game their best stat for initiative.

Or, just pick a stat for initiative (if we are worried DX is too powerful) and be consistent with it. In your case (@ shroudb) you are suggesting intelligence. I would be fine, but I think people would argue about it (as DX = reactions or WS = perception would make more logical sense). In the end you say INT modifies intelligence for stat balance reasons...

My system's solution is the lesser of WIS and DEX for Initiative. You can be quick enough to react to danger, but if you don't see it, you don't know to react to it. Likewise, you can see danger coming, but if you're too slow to react then it doesn't matter.

It also makes DEX a bit less strong and WIS a bit better. Characters that traditionally want high DEX and WIS are generally the types of characters you expect to react to danger quickly anyway (monks).


Kerobelis wrote:

While this is varying into off topic, I find the justifying using a skill for initiative to be unnecessary. There was nothing wrong with the PF1 system. Now people will try to game their best stat for initiative.

Or, just pick a stat for initiative (if we are worried DX is too powerful) and be consistent with it. In your case (@ shroudb) you are suggesting intelligence. I would be fine, but I think people would argue about it (as DX = reactions or WS = perception would make more logical sense). In the end you say INT modifies intelligence for stat balance reasons...

it's important to note that most of my suggestions (i think all apart from medicine) are alternatives, not substitutions.

So, as an example, Religion would still remain a WIS skill, it's just the added benefit of Int to allow Recall Knowledge checks, regardless of the skill, tou be rolled with INT if the player wants.


I do think Int is a bit too weak right now, but most of the proposed fixes haven't felt right to me. The closest is Int for init, but I'm iffy on that. Maybe if there were more trained only skill uses, it would feel about on par with the old system, but even so, I don't know, and that'd be a tough tightrope to walk, if you also have the design goal that skills shouldn't be as disparate as in 1e, as that just circles around to the question of "Can I attempt this check? Well let's see, did I max out my ranks in this skill using one of my X+INT/level skill points choose to take this as trained using one of my X+INT skill choices."


Tholomyes wrote:
I do think Int is a bit too weak right now, but most of the proposed fixes haven't felt right to me. The closest is Int for init, but I'm iffy on that. Maybe if there were more trained only skill uses, it would feel about on par with the old system, but even so, I don't know, and that'd be a tough tightrope to walk, if you also have the design goal that skills shouldn't be as disparate as in 1e, as that just circles around to the question of "Can I attempt this check? Well let's see, did I max out my ranks in this skill using one of my X+INT/level skill points choose to take this as trained using one of my X+INT skill choices."

if we're going to flatten out skill points to that degree, then why not plainly remove Int.

I mean, frankly, at this point it only serves the purpose of 2 classes having a different key ability.

it offers nothing mechanics wise and almost zero stuff are dependent on it (4-5 skills are the only Int based checks in the game, some of which don't even make 100% sense, like the legendary blacksmith having key stat his Int...)

If not, and we're sticking on the theme that Int is THE skill stat, then it really needs to ffer real, tangible, and serious bonuses and advantages to skills. Something that it certainly doesn't do now.

Edit:

As it stands now, most classes do have only 3 or so signature skills. While all classes can put all skills up to expert.

in reality, i have seen exactly ZERO characters, either mine, or from anyone from my group, that split their Skill points to multiple skills instead of just advancing 3 skills to legendary.

Given that, maybe having Int granting extra skill increases isn't all that bad. I mean, he can still only advance skills up to Expert and not furthermore, so what's the harm?

Not sure how this can be done though so as not to give too many (obviously +int/skill up is too many) or too few


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What is inte modifier granted extra skill boosts instead of extra trained skills. So an Alchemist with 18 Int instead of starting trained in 7 skills could start Expert in 3 skills and trained in 1 other. Makes it a little easier to boost skills faster and let's you start off as a smarty-pants expert.

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