Goblins.... +2 Dex... +2.... Cha?!


Ancestries & Backgrounds

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
No ancestry should have bonuses to two physical or two mental attributes and a free attribute bonus, since that opens the way to getting +2 to all mental or all physical attributes.

My teen players don't like the +2 to Charisma either and this is what I told them. They came up with an idea which i think addresses people's concerns:

Strength flaw
Dexterity boost
Wisdom flaw
2 free ability boosts

It writes off 18 strength and 18 wisdom. But I think standardization among all the classes is overrated. :-)

What do people think?


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For me, I think goblins should get -2 to every mental stat and +2 to dex and con. That, IMO, fits the lore as insane, cowardly and illiterate.


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Just my 2 cents... maybe this has already been said...

Of 5 races with ability flaws, two have strength as their flaw. Strength comes up as a key ability more than any other ability score. Hampering that score on a third of the available races seems very problematic. I would suggest changing the gnome flaw to dexterity. They already have the slowest movement in the game. And with a constitution bonus, it makes sense for them to be sturdy little buggers.

To take that a step further and relate this to the discussion of Goblins, I would give goblins an Intelligence penalty instead of Wisdom. I'd also swap in Strength or Wisdom as their bonus over either or both of their current bonuses. Strength, because they are warlike and battle-hardened. Wisdom, because they are survivalists that train beasts.

3 races already have dexterity bonuses. So there is a mechanical argument for dropping one. If the counter argument for any of this is that either dexterity or intelligence are too important to have as a penalty or drop as a bonus, then that is something to fix about those abilities.


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TheMonkeyFish wrote:

TL:DR - I don't believe Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, +2 Free; I believe that Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Free. It makes more sense with their biography and common background.

Okay... So hear me out about this: Generation 1 Goblins were all +4 Dex with -2 Cha and -2 Wis. While I understand that these bonuses and penalties needed to be changed for balance, I don't believe they should be completely neglected either. Because of this, I don't believe Charisma should be one of the Goblin's mandatory +2 Stats. Not only that, but there are several things in the Pathfinder 2e Playtest Book which would point to Charisma not being a manditory key stat for the Goblins.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but please allow me to present my arguments based on the information described in their racial biography. I am going to take a few moments to break down what they say a Goblin is and should be, and why Charisma just doesn't make sense.

Pathfinder 2e Playtest PDF wrote:
Charisma: This score measures your character’s strength of personality, personal magnetism, and ability to influence the thoughts and moods of others. Charisma is an important statistic for bards and sorcerers, and it grants benefits to clerics and paladins. Charisma also determines your character’s Resonance Points (see page 376).

This is the in-game description of Charisma for Pathfinder 2e. Its safe to say that, when comparing this to the Goblin's biography description, it doesn't make sense why a Goblin would naturally gain +2 Charisma. Key word "Naturally". I don't believe that Charisma should be a Goblin's penalty, but I do believe that it should not be a secondary bonus for them. My arguments are presented below.

Pathfinder 2e Playtest PDF wrote:
Even those goblins who break from their destructive past often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been tied to the creatures for millennia.
^THIS^ is one of they key reasons I believe Goblins...

My first impression is that the goblin race's attributes were attributed to the number of MMORPG players who are now playing RPGs and expected cute, cunning and very intelligent goblins. The next thing I expect to see is that these Goblins also have a knack for engineering...


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Goblins can have engineering as long as NO TAKE CANDLE!


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Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
Goblins can have engineering as long as NO TAKE CANDLE!

You know what... I didn't want a candle before but now that you've said "NO TAKE CANDLE", I now want one... Mmmmmm..... Candle....


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graystone wrote:
Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
Goblins can have engineering as long as NO TAKE CANDLE!
You know what... I didn't want a candle before but now that you've said "NO TAKE CANDLE", I now want one... Mmmmmm..... Candle....

!!!... EHhh just you make sure you go for the one underneath the boulder.. the one with the sign that says no take candle... You may have to give it a good tug.

Unrelated question: whatever race you are you have bones and squishy bits that would be damaged by say just out of the blue a giant rock falling on you right? I ask for purely scholarly reasons.

Also unrelated do you keep your silver on your person or like in a sack or something close by?


TheMonkeyFish wrote:
TL:DR - I don't believe Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, +2 Free; I believe that Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Free. It makes more sense with their biography and common background.

Maybe

But I'm going to be building a Goblin Paladin riding a Warg while I can...


Gortle wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
TL:DR - I don't believe Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, +2 Free; I believe that Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Free. It makes more sense with their biography and common background.

Maybe

But I'm going to be building a Goblin Paladin riding a Warg while I can...

Where'd you get all that dere silver for that armor of yours?


Very_Simple_Commoner wrote:
Gortle wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
TL:DR - I don't believe Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, +2 Free; I believe that Goblins should have +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Free. It makes more sense with their biography and common background.

Maybe

But I'm going to be building a Goblin Paladin riding a Warg while I can...

Where'd you get all that dere silver for that armor of yours?

O_O ...

Nowhere!


Anyone proposing anything other than a +2 X, +2 Y, -2 Z spread or +2 X and +2 Y spread for a core PHB race are being delusional.

The only sensible options for playable options appear to be Set 1 (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis) or Set 2 (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis), or variations of the prior two that provide a -2 Str isntead.


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Aldarc wrote:

Anyone proposing anything other than a +2 X, +2 Y, -2 Z spread or +2 X and +2 Y spread for a core PHB race are being delusional.

+1 for goblins not being a core race


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Snickersnax wrote:
Aldarc wrote:

Anyone proposing anything other than a +2 X, +2 Y, -2 Z spread or +2 X and +2 Y spread for a core PHB race are being delusional.

+1 for goblins not being a core race

And that is a separate argument entirely.


Not a fan of Ancestry-based adjustments to Ability Scores in the first place, but if we must have them, I think Charisma works fine - No one can deny that Goblins have strong personalities even if they are frequently obnoxious ones by human standards..


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Aldarc wrote:
Snickersnax wrote:
Aldarc wrote:

Anyone proposing anything other than a +2 X, +2 Y, -2 Z spread or +2 X and +2 Y spread for a core PHB race are being delusional.

+1 for goblins not being a core race
And that is a separate argument entirely.

I was just pointing out how your opinion linked very well to my argument.


TheMonkeyFish wrote:

@DanceYrself - Ya know, I'm going to put myself out on a limb here for saying this, but I'm like 90% sure the only reason they added Alchemist was because of the Goblin Bombarder everyone wants to play. Considering their alchemist skills and trap making, and the fact that they are SMART enough to learn they need to ask for help to survive, Intelligence makes much more sense than Charisma. Something like:

"Naturally curious by nature, Goblins are quick to learn - especially when it comes to making things blow up."

@ Paizo - If you are listening, what do you think of the whole idea of Goblins being +Dex/+Int and switching back Halflings to +Dex/+Cha like the old ones we used to know and love?

@ Grimcleaver - Waylangs and Vine Leshy would like to have a word with you.

While i see your point, i must remind you that the goblins aren't much alike the other small races. While gnomes and halflings are the two most similar core races as of today, the goblins tend more towards orcish/koboldish form. They are green, barbaric and tend to primitive societies more than the adaptive halflings or the fascinated gnomes. they also tend more towards martial classes then the spellcasting ones than most other races (i don't consider sorcerer an option because it's genetic, not choosable). As such, the str flaw would hurt all the possible goblin barbarians, which are defenetly more common than an halfling barbarian or gnome barbarian.


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I actually just came to the forums to suggest changing Goblin stats to Kobold. It's really nice to see that quite a few people already agree with me.

Goblins aren't charismatic, they're crafty. Thus, Goblins should be +Int.

Kobolds are Sorcerers, so they should be +Cha.


ClanPsi wrote:

I actually just came to the forums to suggest changing Goblin stats to Kobold. It's really nice to see that quite a few people already agree with me.

Goblins aren't charismatic, they're crafty. Thus, Goblins should be +Int.

Kobolds are Sorcerers, so they should be +Cha.

Just because a ancestry does something doesn't mean they have to be good at it. And they certainly don't have to be as good as the best possible suited ancestry for a class.

Maybe its necessary for the game and the times we live in, but I just see these as more reasons to not have these ancestries be player characters.


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Snickersnax wrote:


Just because a[n] ancestry does something doesn't mean they have to be good at it.

That's a really strange thing to say, since it's pretty much why stat boosts and ancestry feats exist in the first place. They're a mechanical representation of what an ancestry is fundamentally good at.


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ClanPsi wrote:
Snickersnax wrote:


Just because a[n] ancestry does something doesn't mean they have to be good at it.

That's a really strange thing to say, since it's pretty much why stat boosts and ancestry feats exist in the first place. They're a mechanical representation of what an ancestry is fundamentally good at.

That's not strange at all: being known for having sorcerers is different than them being known for being GOOD sorcerers. In pathfinder 1, they had a +0 bonus to Cha and only stood out if they took the racial trait for a effective +2 to draconic/kobold bloodline.


Maybe I'm just too used to Eberron, where one of the most powerful sorcerers in the world is a Kobold. Eberron is so fantastic.


ClanPsi wrote:
Maybe I'm just too used to Eberron, where one of the most powerful sorcerers in the world is a Kobold. Eberron is so fantastic.

Hmmm... I don't recall powerful kobold sorcerers in eberron. *looks up stats* They had: -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution and Favored Class [Sorcerer]. So same plus to Cha, a +0.

Maybe you're thinking of a particular very high level kobold?


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Hm... I was not expecting this thread to still be alive after my hiatus for about a month. That being said, Kobolds have a much stronger force of personality than goblins do - and in PF1 (and DnD), not having a 20 score didn't make you a /bad/ caster. Unfortunately, it feels like PF2 is pushing for the "18 is standard" mindset for the game, meaning if you don't have 18 in your key score, you might loss out on a lot of stuff that it has to offer.

That being said, I believe Kobolds with +Dex/+Cha/-Str (or -Con) would make much more sense then the Goblin's +Dex/+Cha/-Wis. While I think a -2 Strength (or Constitution) might make more sense for the Goblin, it was previously pointed out (to my agreement) that Goblins are still considered a more primal class, and penalizing their strength or constitution. That being said, the main argument for them carrying the -2 Wisdom is the fact that the /only/ reason they are alive is how quickly they are able to reproduce and replenish numbers - no matter how many predators work to lower their numbers.

If Goblin's DIDN'T die on a daily basis, then it would quickly turn into an issue of overpopulation of accident prone explosive monsters.

Sovereign Court

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Goblins should NOT be a core race and should keep their PF1 modifiers.

What happened on Golarion that caused such major social and physical changes to Goblins?


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Pretty sure it's obvious that I'm for Goblins being a core race. I can get 100% behind adding Ratfolk and Kobolds as well. Small Monstrous Races for life!

Respectively, I'd give them...

Goblins: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Str
Kobolds: +2 Dex +2 Cha -2 Str
Ratfolk: +2 Dex +2 Wis -2 Str


Cylerist wrote:

Goblins should NOT be a core race and should keep their PF1 modifiers.

What happened on Golarion that caused such major social and physical changes to Goblins?

Hopefully something interesting. Golarian is better than Forgotten Realms, but it's still a bit too bland for my tastes. Personally I love Warcraft Goblins, and am totally down with something like that in Pathfinder.


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@Gloom - I agree with the stats to a point, unfortunately they are all pretty much the same to one another with the exception for their second bonus, and I don't believe Paizo would do something so blatant for their small races - even if they aren't core.

I still believe that the Goblin's Penalty stat makes more sense as a Wisdom bane than Strength. Kobolds seem like they would be more of a Constitution Bane than anything else, and Ratfolk I agree with the Strength Bane.


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TheMonkeyFish wrote:

@Gloom - I agree with the stats to a point, unfortunately they are all pretty much the same to one another with the exception for their second bonus, and I don't believe Paizo would do something so blatant for their small races - even if they aren't core.

I still believe that the Goblin's Penalty stat makes more sense as a Wisdom bane than Strength. Kobolds seem like they would be more of a Constitution Bane than anything else, and Ratfolk I agree with the Strength Bane.

Giving a race, especially a Small race two Physical Boosts is a bit 'out there'. If you look at most of the races you can see that they've almost all got a bonus to one Physical and one Mental attribute. I think they want to keep that consistent.

Strength is almost always a negative for smaller races with dex almost always being boosted. That leaves the flexibility in the mental boosts.

One could argue that the only real mental attribute that fits Goblins would be Intelligence, since they tend not to have much common sense. Charisma is a bit of a stretch but it's possible with their Goblin songs. They have almost always been portrayed as crafty though, and capable of turning junk into usable equipment.

Kobolds and Ratfolk are the same when it comes to trapping and mining for the Kobolds and general tinkering for the Ratfolk. I really didn't want to suggest having all three of them be Dex/Int.

I can see Kobolds gaining Charisma because they can tend to be charming at times, when you understand them. And they do have an affinity for draconic bloodline sorcery.

Ratfolk on the other hand could either be Wisdom or Intelligence, given that they've got their crafty nature and they are the ones that are the most well adjusted to humanoid civilization.

It's a toss-up. I definitely don't think that smaller races should have two physical boosts out of the gate though!

Maybe the best way to have them stand out in terms of their racial attributes is not so much their boosts but their flaws?

Kobold - Dex/Cha boost with Con flaw
Goblin - Dex/Int boost with Cha flaw
Ratfolk - Dex/Int boost with Str flaw

That could work.

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