paizo.com Recent Posts in Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?paizo.com Recent Posts in Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?2018-08-13T20:47:14Z2018-08-13T20:47:14ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?RobRendellhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#482018-08-21T22:16:18Z2018-08-21T22:16:18Z<p>I'm still running The Lost Star in the playtest, but I'm finding that first level characters also have annoyingly low bonusses. Ignoring stat bonusses, a PF1e character will have +4 for putting a rank into a class skill; a 1st level PF2e character with a trained skill gets +1. Also, it makes no difference if the skill is a "signature skill" or not until you're at least 7th level. Our party has a Bard but no Rogue, and despite being trained in Thievery the player has pretty much given up on trying to use it vs. the DCs in the adventure.</p>
<p>I'd prefer it if signature skills just gave a flat +3 (whether untrained, trained, or whatever) - that's your class training. Also, don't gate Master and Legendary based on signature. If a character wants to invest their precious skill advances in a non-signature skill, I don't see why they can't.</p>
<p>WRT the whole "+1 every level" thing... I can see that on paper it helps with setting DCs for mid or high level parties which can potentially be hit by everyone in the party without being an auto-critical for the specialists or impossible for the untrained, but I'm not sure why that's a huge problem.</p>
<p>If there's a wall to climb, you only need one PC to make the climb and then lower a rope.</p>
<p>If there's sneaking to be done in PF1e, the Rogue and Ranger can go off in front, and the clanky Paladin can follow behind, and because distance affects Perception DCs in PF1e that actually makes a difference. Even if an enemy notices the Paladin's clanking, the Rogue and Ranger's Stealth can still beat the monster's Perception and thus they remain hidden and ambush or flank the monsters as they rush towards the bait, err I mean, rest of the party.</p>
<p>By the time you get to mid-to-high level play in PF1e, the alternatives to skill checks grow massively anyway, so the fact that this legendary lock can only be picked by a high-level rogue isn't going to stop the party... the Wizard could cast Knock or Passwall, the Fighter can pull out his adamantine dagger and cut out the lock, the Barbarian can hack the door to pieces.</p>I'm still running The Lost Star in the playtest, but I'm finding that first level characters also have annoyingly low bonusses. Ignoring stat bonusses, a PF1e character will have +4 for putting a rank into a class skill; a 1st level PF2e character with a trained skill gets +1. Also, it makes no difference if the skill is a "signature skill" or not until you're at least 7th level. Our party has a Bard but no Rogue, and despite being trained in Thievery the player has pretty much given up on...RobRendell2018-08-21T22:16:18ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Ghilterashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#472018-08-21T21:45:48Z2018-08-21T18:56:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nightwhisper wrote:</div><blockquote>in 3.5e and PF1e, AC did not rise by level. Instead, it rose by magic armor (+5), natural armor (+5), ring of protection (+5), and probably a couple of other sources of +5 that I'm forgetting. </blockquote><p>Itemization you can always control, the +1/lvl you can't. It just goes up regardless. There are no mob rules in pf2e so the low lvl monster will always critical miss, while on 5e I can still effectively use them as minions as mob rules are statistical. Also we lack variants of monsters that are elite, no orc or goblin elite. A mid level PC can literally kill hundreds of them without ever being hit.Nightwhisper wrote:in 3.5e and PF1e, AC did not rise by level. Instead, it rose by magic armor (+5), natural armor (+5), ring of protection (+5), and probably a couple of other sources of +5 that I'm forgetting.
Itemization you can always control, the +1/lvl you can't. It just goes up regardless. There are no mob rules in pf2e so the low lvl monster will always critical miss, while on 5e I can still effectively use them as minions as mob rules are statistical. Also we lack variants of...Ghilteras2018-08-21T18:56:35ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Nightwhisperhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#462018-08-18T08:14:51Z2018-08-18T08:14:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ghilteras wrote:</div><blockquote>It was not like this in previous editions where the AC did not scale. </blockquote><p>in 3.5e and PF1e, AC did not rise by level. Instead, it rose by magic armor (+5), natural armor (+5), ring of protection (+5), and probably a couple of other sources of +5 that I'm forgetting.Ghilteras wrote:It was not like this in previous editions where the AC did not scale.
in 3.5e and PF1e, AC did not rise by level. Instead, it rose by magic armor (+5), natural armor (+5), ring of protection (+5), and probably a couple of other sources of +5 that I'm forgetting.Nightwhisper2018-08-18T08:14:51ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Unicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#452018-08-17T03:15:11Z2018-08-16T12:22:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jeff Deaner wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I'm going to posit the existence of a 20th level rogue who is a transcendent locksmith- she charges exorbitant prices for locks she is confident no one can pick unless they are at least as good as her.</p>
<p>I mean, a lot of modern security experts used to be blackhats, so it checks out. </blockquote>"I'm a 20th level locksmith. For only $levelappropriate SP, I'll sell you a lock that can't be picked by anyone under 12th level - 95% of the time. I don't provide insurance against the Natural Twenty" </blockquote><p>No lock in PF2 gets picked with one roll, so it would probably be 3 natural 20s, which is not a 5% shot and is going to take a very long time. But most locks can be circumnavigated with time and energy so that doesn't shatter much for me as far as game experience.
<p>The real issue is that this PF2 system is different and complex enough that it takes a while to figure out as a GM how to fit old challenges into the new system and a lot of folks are making judgements on it without really doing the reading or looking at how these things work in the new system.</p>Jeff Deaner wrote:PossibleCabbage wrote:I'm going to posit the existence of a 20th level rogue who is a transcendent locksmith- she charges exorbitant prices for locks she is confident no one can pick unless they are at least as good as her.
I mean, a lot of modern security experts used to be blackhats, so it checks out.
"I'm a 20th level locksmith. For only $levelappropriate SP, I'll sell you a lock that can't be picked by anyone under 12th level - 95% of the time. I don't provide...Unicore2018-08-16T12:22:18ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Claxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#442018-08-16T02:29:43Z2018-08-16T02:29:43Z<p>I think the best compromise for this would be to simply say you need to be trained in a skill to get the bonus of your level to the skill.</p>
<p>That approximates being completely untrained as now skill point in PF1 did.</p>I think the best compromise for this would be to simply say you need to be trained in a skill to get the bonus of your level to the skill.
That approximates being completely untrained as now skill point in PF1 did.Claxon2018-08-16T02:29:43ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?GM Rednal (alias of Rednal)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#432018-08-16T02:08:21Z2018-08-16T02:08:21Z<p>One thing I want to see is an option to NOT get the bonus to certain skills at a level - not to be mechanically better in any way, but just because you don't think it fits the character. I mean, I get stuff like "I've seen the rogue pick dozens of locks and explain them to me, so while I'm not as good as he is, I understand enough to at least try it with a minimal level of competence", but I feel like not being good at things should be an option for roleplaying reasons.</p>One thing I want to see is an option to NOT get the bonus to certain skills at a level - not to be mechanically better in any way, but just because you don't think it fits the character. I mean, I get stuff like "I've seen the rogue pick dozens of locks and explain them to me, so while I'm not as good as he is, I understand enough to at least try it with a minimal level of competence", but I feel like not being good at things should be an option for roleplaying reasons.GM Rednal (alias of Rednal)2018-08-16T02:08:21ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Soldarchttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#422018-08-15T15:15:46Z2018-08-15T15:15:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:</div><blockquote> I expect (or at least hope) there will be a troop template. Which I would expect to help with waves of attackers. And overall have a higher attack bonus than the individuals. I don't know how much higher it should be. </blockquote><p>What? You dont find it realistic that a high level character can walk onto a battlefield with thousends of orcs and sit down to drink some tea and have a snack while watching everyone critically miss them? You dont think its ok that you're level 1 bard is sitting and playing at an in and a group of level 5-6 goblin barbarians come in, ask what that sound thing is in your hand and then takes it from you to try to make sounds from it and turning out to be better than you at playing it, all of them.. just "because of level". Seems odd that you wouldent agree with rules like that.. I mean a person of higher level should be better at exactly everything than lower level ppl or?Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:I expect (or at least hope) there will be a troop template. Which I would expect to help with waves of attackers. And overall have a higher attack bonus than the individuals. I don't know how much higher it should be.
What? You dont find it realistic that a high level character can walk onto a battlefield with thousends of orcs and sit down to drink some tea and have a snack while watching everyone critically miss them? You dont think its ok that you're...Soldarc2018-08-15T15:15:46ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Chief Cook and Bottlewasher (alias of diana ratcliffe)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#412018-08-15T11:58:40Z2018-08-15T11:58:40Z<p>I expect (or at least hope) there will be a troop template. Which I would expect to help with waves of attackers. And overall have a higher attack bonus than the individuals. I don't know how much higher it should be.</p>I expect (or at least hope) there will be a troop template. Which I would expect to help with waves of attackers. And overall have a higher attack bonus than the individuals. I don't know how much higher it should be.Chief Cook and Bottlewasher (alias of diana ratcliffe)2018-08-15T11:58:40ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Ghilterashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#402018-08-15T00:27:47Z2018-08-15T00:27:47Z<p>Monsters and Hazards have been already scaled properly with the +1/lvl to everything bonus by Paizo. The only thing left to GMs is the skill DCs. 10-2 table gives some guidance, but IMHO it's not enough. </p>
<p>Also I don't like that some of the iconic low level monsters will be absolutely useless even in waves when you take into account the +1/lvl to AC as well. In 5e I can still use goblins and orcs as minions to a party mid level effectively (especially thanks to mob rules). In PF unless you publish some elite version of low level monsters like orc/goblin captains or whatever you will only use them at first levels or they would crit-failure most rolls even against a mid lvl party.. It was not like this in previous editions where the AC did not scale.</p>Monsters and Hazards have been already scaled properly with the +1/lvl to everything bonus by Paizo. The only thing left to GMs is the skill DCs. 10-2 table gives some guidance, but IMHO it's not enough.
Also I don't like that some of the iconic low level monsters will be absolutely useless even in waves when you take into account the +1/lvl to AC as well. In 5e I can still use goblins and orcs as minions to a party mid level effectively (especially thanks to mob rules). In PF unless you...Ghilteras2018-08-15T00:27:47ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Jeff Deanerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#392018-08-14T14:05:58Z2018-08-14T14:05:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I'm going to posit the existence of a 20th level rogue who is a transcendent locksmith- she charges exorbitant prices for locks she is confident no one can pick unless they are at least as good as her.</p>
<p>I mean, a lot of modern security experts used to be blackhats, so it checks out. </blockquote><p>"I'm a 20th level locksmith. For only $levelappropriate SP, I'll sell you a lock that can't be picked by anyone under 12th level - 95% of the time. I don't provide insurance against the Natural Twenty"PossibleCabbage wrote:I'm going to posit the existence of a 20th level rogue who is a transcendent locksmith- she charges exorbitant prices for locks she is confident no one can pick unless they are at least as good as her.
I mean, a lot of modern security experts used to be blackhats, so it checks out.
"I'm a 20th level locksmith. For only $levelappropriate SP, I'll sell you a lock that can't be picked by anyone under 12th level - 95% of the time. I don't provide insurance against the...Jeff Deaner2018-08-14T14:05:58ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Claxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#382018-08-14T13:46:54Z2018-08-14T13:46:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jackofmages wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Claxon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Nox Aeterna wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The intention to me seems simple enough.</p>
<p>By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.</p>
<p>So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...</p>
<p>You in turn have more situations where everyone might not be as good as the other guy, but they are still willing to try cause they are high enough lvl and thus have a good bonus to whatever it is. </blockquote><p>I do think this a huge benefit.
<p>My party having run the 1st level of the play test found that only the rogue was really prepared to use stealth, which meant it wasn't a particularly useful overall tactic for the rogue. At higher levels, we might be willing to try despite being untrained because our bonuses from level will outweigh the penalties, and everyone is likely to have at least a moderately good dex. </blockquote>@ Claxon, Why?, why would your party suddenly get to a point where their stealth is enough to sneak around with the rogue? It does not work that way. You must remember that all your opponents perceptions are going up the same rate as your parties stealth, because the GM is going to raise the level of the monsters you face thereby raising their perception, because of the +1 to everything mechanic. You say they will try it because your DEX will go up, but so do the the abilities of the monsters. This is the fallacy that +1 to everything tricks people into thinking, its an illusion, your skill goes up and your target DCs go up, they are the same percentage whether you have the +1 to everything or not. </blockquote><p>This too is a fallacy. Level appropriate challenges go up, but not all challenges go up.
<p>You can sneak through the woods, and the tribe of level 1 through 3 goblins wont notice your level 10 and you can pass by unhindered. </p>
<p>But the level 10 owl bear will notice you. And that's fine.</p>
<p>The GM just needs to make the world "realistic" in that the party doesn't only encounter level appropriate enemies. Meaning that you don't need to be the best of the best to sneak by them, or to use diplomacy on them, etc.</p>
<p>Sure, if you only ever see level appropriate enemies then the +1 is per level is worthless because they scale at the same rate (approximately). But if the world around you continues to have a range of enemies that are both relevant and not it allows characters to truly feel like they've grown. </p>
<p>And this was an issue in PF1 anyways. Where if you only encountered CR appropriate enemies you might never really "awesome" because everything remained a challenge.</p>
<p>•I'm just making up monsters as a random example, I have no idea if there's a level 10 owl bear stated out already, though you can make monsters of essentially any level.</p>Jackofmages wrote:Claxon wrote: Nox Aeterna wrote:The intention to me seems simple enough.
By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.
So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...
You in turn have more...Claxon2018-08-14T13:46:54ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?John Lynch 106https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#372018-08-15T04:04:47Z2018-08-14T10:25:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">heretic wrote:</div><blockquote><p>DCs are static but if you want a wall to act as a barrier that needs to be overcome you will need to make the one that the high level guys encounter very different to the ones the lower level folk do. </p>
<p>So given that characters of all level live in the same world there are some narrative problems that I worry about. Either a wall of the type we tend to imagine in a FRPG will provide very limited functionality in keeping any mid level adventurer out regardless of his experience or fitness level or it will have to be designed to keep high level PCs out and be next to impossible for low level ones.</p>
<p>Traditionally the solution was that the average adventurer would have real difficulties breaching e.g. a prison wall but that a skilled rogue might and then the rogue lets down a rope.</p>
<p>And it is not just walls of course.
<br />
</blockquote><p>I disagree that this is a problem or that this is new. You set the DCs to where they should be and then construct your adventures to work around those DCs. So if the players need to breach an area but can't beat the DC, provide them with other ways to access that area. Using the castle walls example, perhaps the sense gal has a gambling addiction that the PCs can exploit. Or a smuggler knows a way in. Or a gala is being thrown.heretic wrote:DCs are static but if you want a wall to act as a barrier that needs to be overcome you will need to make the one that the high level guys encounter very different to the ones the lower level folk do.
So given that characters of all level live in the same world there are some narrative problems that I worry about. Either a wall of the type we tend to imagine in a FRPG will provide very limited functionality in keeping any mid level adventurer out regardless of his experience or...John Lynch 1062018-08-14T10:25:10ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Mats Öhrmanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#362018-09-02T19:03:13Z2018-08-14T09:31:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jackofmages wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>@ Claxon, Why?, why would your party suddenly get to a point where their stealth is enough to sneak around with the rogue? It does not work that way. You must remember that all your opponents perceptions are going up the same rate as your parties stealth, because the GM is going to raise the level of the monsters you face thereby raising their perception, because of the +1 to everything mechanic. You say they will try it because your DEX will go up, but so do the the abilities of the monsters. This is the fallacy that +1 to everything tricks people into thinking, its an illusion, your skill goes up and your target DCs go up, they are the same percentage whether you have the +1 to everything or not. </blockquote><p>Exactly. Note <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v9zg?Monster-Skills-A-Serious-Problem#22" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this post</a>. Quote: “Out of curiosity, I scanned through the bestiary from A through E and found that only 12 out of 112 creatures have a perception modifier that is lower than an absolutely MAXED out player character of the same level.”Jackofmages wrote:@ Claxon, Why?, why would your party suddenly get to a point where their stealth is enough to sneak around with the rogue? It does not work that way. You must remember that all your opponents perceptions are going up the same rate as your parties stealth, because the GM is going to raise the level of the monsters you face thereby raising their perception, because of the +1 to everything mechanic. You say they will try it because your DEX will go up, but so do the the...Mats Öhrman2018-08-14T09:31:37ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Jackofmageshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#352018-08-21T21:37:00Z2018-08-14T09:14:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Claxon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Nox Aeterna wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The intention to me seems simple enough.</p>
<p>By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.</p>
<p>So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...</p>
<p>You in turn have more situations where everyone might not be as good as the other guy, but they are still willing to try cause they are high enough lvl and thus have a good bonus to whatever it is. </blockquote><p>I do think this a huge benefit.
<p>My party having run the 1st level of the play test found that only the rogue was really prepared to use stealth, which meant it wasn't a particularly useful overall tactic for the rogue. At higher levels, we might be willing to try despite being untrained because our bonuses from level will outweigh the penalties, and everyone is likely to have at least a moderately good dex. </blockquote><p>@ Claxon, Why?, why would your party suddenly get to a point where their stealth is enough to sneak around with the rogue? It does not work that way. You must remember that all your opponents perceptions are going up the same rate as your parties stealth, because the GM is going to raise the level of the monsters you face thereby raising their perception, because of the +1 to everything mechanic. You say they will try it because your DEX will go up, but so do the the abilities of the monsters. This is the fallacy that +1 to everything tricks people into thinking, its an illusion, your skill goes up and your target DCs go up, they are the same percentage whether you have the +1 to everything or not.Claxon wrote:Nox Aeterna wrote:The intention to me seems simple enough.
By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.
So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...
You in turn have more situations where...Jackofmages2018-08-14T09:14:08ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Claxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#342018-08-14T00:51:43Z2018-08-14T00:51:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nox Aeterna wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The intention to me seems simple enough.</p>
<p>By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.</p>
<p>So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...</p>
<p>You in turn have more situations where everyone might not be as good as the other guy, but they are still willing to try cause they are high enough lvl and thus have a good bonus to whatever it is. </blockquote><p>I do think this a huge benefit.
<p>My party having run the 1st level of the play test found that only the rogue was really prepared to use stealth, which meant it wasn't a particularly useful overall tactic for the rogue. At higher levels, we might be willing to try despite being untrained because our bonuses from level will outweigh the penalties, and everyone is likely to have at least a moderately good dex.</p>Nox Aeterna wrote:The intention to me seems simple enough.
By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.
So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...
You in turn have more situations where everyone might...Claxon2018-08-14T00:51:43ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Nox Aeternahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#332018-08-21T20:56:06Z2018-08-13T22:06:34Z<p>The intention to me seems simple enough.</p>
<p>By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.</p>
<p>So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...</p>
<p>You in turn have more situations where everyone might not be as good as the other guy, but they are still willing to try cause they are high enough lvl and thus have a good bonus to whatever it is.</p>The intention to me seems simple enough.
By everyone getting +1 at every lvl, the gap from one to another PC dimishes, this way everyone may attempt a task.
So instead of, one guy being at stealth, but the party refuses to do it cause the others arent, one guy is good at climb, but the party refuses to do it cause the wizard or whatever isnt, the other guy is good at X and the party refuses to do it cause they arent...
You in turn have more situations where everyone might not be as good as...Nox Aeterna2018-08-13T22:06:34ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Claxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#322018-08-15T00:21:28Z2018-08-13T21:24:39Z<p>Would you accept the situation if proficiency only added your level to the bonus if you were trained?</p>
<p>So instead of untrained being a penalty -2, it simply leaves your score proficiency score at 0. Sure, at low levels a very dexterous character might be the trained thief with low(er) dex. But then the trained character will quickly outstrip the other person.</p>
<p>I could potentially get behind that sort of change to the system, but otherwise I very much like the system of adding +1 per level to everything. Especially for recalling knowledge on monster. Even though my barbarian might have no formal training on these monsters, he's fought enough of them to recognize this monster and their similar kin.</p>Would you accept the situation if proficiency only added your level to the bonus if you were trained?
So instead of untrained being a penalty -2, it simply leaves your score proficiency score at 0. Sure, at low levels a very dexterous character might be the trained thief with low(er) dex. But then the trained character will quickly outstrip the other person.
I could potentially get behind that sort of change to the system, but otherwise I very much like the system of adding +1 per level to...Claxon2018-08-13T21:24:39ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?ruimpranickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#312018-08-21T21:35:00Z2018-08-13T21:17:33Z<p>Actually Ghilteras has a point, in the part 6 of Doomsday Dawn the main focus of it is to see how skills are working, and it really got me disappointed, until then I didn't pay attention about skills, of course the whole concept bothered me but the focus was killing foes and stuff so I ignored it.</p>
<p>But when I read it I saw simple tasks like gathering informations that wouldn't be that difficult to gather, or picklocking a servant's room that should be a easy task if you stop to think that no one would care about a servant a DC 25 check. I'm pretty sure that if it was a low level adventure those DCs would be much lower.</p>
<p>People talk about how epic it gets when you get high level but the only thing I'm seeing is the DCs getting higher for no reason, and don't call this bad GMing or nothing like that, because even the official content does this.</p>
<p>and even if you can make pertinent DCs, climbing trees is each level easier and the solution to that is stop placing trees and start placing flat walls, it loses all sense, the challenge isn't gone, it's just skinned</p>Actually Ghilteras has a point, in the part 6 of Doomsday Dawn the main focus of it is to see how skills are working, and it really got me disappointed, until then I didn't pay attention about skills, of course the whole concept bothered me but the focus was killing foes and stuff so I ignored it.
But when I read it I saw simple tasks like gathering informations that wouldn't be that difficult to gather, or picklocking a servant's room that should be a easy task if you stop to think that no...ruimpranick2018-08-13T21:17:33ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Ghilterashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#302018-08-21T21:33:45Z2018-08-13T20:40:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Why is "untrained characters stay behind" ever a good thing?
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</blockquote><p>I'm afraid It's the other way around. Paizo should explain to us why having everybody good at everything should be better and not the opposite. It's never been like this and it's always worked fine since the dawn of rpg, no system made everybody godlike even at untrained stuff. I don't find a good justification for this choice. Actually t forces GMs to scale DCs for skill checks so it's more work for me. That's why I want to know why this is a good change. I don't need to justify for opposite because it's always been the opposite and it's always worked! This is introducing more overhead for GMs so it's a price we pay for +1/lvl, is it worth it? Why? What does this +1/lvl gives us that is so hot and good that is ok to have scaling DCs and 20lvl characters with 20+ modifiers to everything? How is that any good?PossibleCabbage wrote:Why is "untrained characters stay behind" ever a good thing?
I'm afraid It's the other way around. Paizo should explain to us why having everybody good at everything should be better and not the opposite. It's never been like this and it's always worked fine since the dawn of rpg, no system made everybody godlike even at untrained stuff. I don't find a good justification for this choice. Actually t forces GMs to scale DCs for skill checks so it's more work for me....Ghilteras2018-08-13T20:40:09ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Unicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#292018-08-25T03:32:26Z2018-08-09T14:45:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">shade2077 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Please please please remove this 'higher level beats everything' rubbish!
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</blockquote><p>If you really hate the idea that experience trumps training, then PF2 is probably not the game for you. PF1 past level 10 is probably not the game for you either because magic trumps both experience and training and everything else starting right about then as well.
<p>It is really hard to represent the breath of "training" that lived experience yields in a game. It doesn't work at all in a game that only gives you 1 point to increase proficiencies and one feat per level, without getting that general +1 to everything. It also fails spectacularly in games designed to allow you to do things like fight dragons and demi-gods because balancing numbers around 20+ point swings in ability is really really difficult/impossible (ie. see mythic pathfinder). </p>
<p>PF2 has decided to really let Experience shine and that actually gives it a fairly unique place in the game industry. I have my own reservations as well, but I have been impressed enough to see it in play before deciding whether it is the system for me.</p>shade2077 wrote:Please please please remove this 'higher level beats everything' rubbish!
If you really hate the idea that experience trumps training, then PF2 is probably not the game for you. PF1 past level 10 is probably not the game for you either because magic trumps both experience and training and everything else starting right about then as well. It is really hard to represent the breath of "training" that lived experience yields in a game. It doesn't work at all in a game that only...Unicore2018-08-09T14:45:50ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?heretichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#282018-08-21T21:32:52Z2018-08-09T12:52:06Z<p>I have been giving the skills system a lot of thought. The +1 per level bonus combined with a -2 penalty for not being skilled means that for characters with the same ability score two levels of experience means the trained professional is no better than someone who has never encountered the matter in hand before. Yes this is qualified: there are skills with gated subsets. There are also skill feats that require higher proficiency pips. </p>
<p>DCs are static but if you want a wall to act as a barrier that needs to be overcome you will need to make the one that the high level guys encounter very different to the ones the lower level folk do. </p>
<p>So given that characters of all level live in the same world there are some narrative problems that I worry about. Either a wall of the type we tend to imagine in a FRPG will provide very limited functionality in keeping any mid level adventurer out regardless of his experience or fitness level or it will have to be designed to keep high level PCs out and be next to impossible for low level ones.</p>
<p>Traditionally the solution was that the average adventurer would have real difficulties breaching e.g. a prison wall but that a skilled rogue might and then the rogue lets down a rope.</p>
<p>And it is not just walls of course.</p>
<p>So there is a degree of forcing going on if you prioritise narrative consistency.</p>
<p>I also get that people hate the way that in certain circumstance a PC is just useless in an encounter because the encounter needs certain skills which they don’t have. Not sure this even fixes this or if it does, does so at too great a cost.</p>I have been giving the skills system a lot of thought. The +1 per level bonus combined with a -2 penalty for not being skilled means that for characters with the same ability score two levels of experience means the trained professional is no better than someone who has never encountered the matter in hand before. Yes this is qualified: there are skills with gated subsets. There are also skill feats that require higher proficiency pips.
DCs are static but if you want a wall to act as a...heretic2018-08-09T12:52:06ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#272018-08-17T03:12:40Z2018-08-09T00:37:36Z<p>Alternatively- once the party is sufficiently experienced, all walls are climbable unless somebody for some reason took steps to make a particular wall more difficult to climb.</p>
<p>Like if we're attacking the dread arch-necromancer in his spooky castle, it's presumable that he has taken steps to make his sanctum difficult to breech, so maybe the walls just ooze blood (which is surprisingly slippery)- this is pretty atmospheric for a spooky necromancer castle. But if that same party comes back to town after murking said necromancer, they can just climb every wall, tree, drain-pipe, or what have you in the city with no problem.</p>Alternatively- once the party is sufficiently experienced, all walls are climbable unless somebody for some reason took steps to make a particular wall more difficult to climb.
Like if we're attacking the dread arch-necromancer in his spooky castle, it's presumable that he has taken steps to make his sanctum difficult to breech, so maybe the walls just ooze blood (which is surprisingly slippery)- this is pretty atmospheric for a spooky necromancer castle. But if that same party comes back to...PossibleCabbage2018-08-09T00:37:36ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Soldarchttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#262018-08-21T21:31:05Z2018-08-09T00:28:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ghilteras wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The problem is not the crumbling wall vs the smooth wall. The problem is that if a challenge does not scale everybody will succeed because at higher lvl all players will have 20+ in all skills, making every DC less than that an automatic success. I don't like that. I don't want to scale my DCs just because of level. It's an added labor and there is no guidance on how I'm supposed to set it.</p>
<p>In PF 1st edition and D&D 5e untrained character stay behind so if I decide my wall is hard to climb and set DC20 then only the trained ppl will succeed. In PF2e everyone will, forcing me to add vampire bats to the climb and change the DC to 40. I don't see how anyone could like this system to be honest, how are you supposed to pick the new DC? Tables 10-2 and 10-3 would need to be constantly consulted to find a use case close to what you need. It's such a useless overcomplication. </blockquote><p>Its easy, the higher level the party gets the more illogical and weird and messed up the world gets.. all important walls all of a sudden secrete slippery oil, grow thorns, have little gnomes living in them that push players with sticks to make them harder to climb. everything the group encounters in the form of none combat encounters works this way and all of a sudden all NPCs level to level 15+ so the party cant just go in to a town and tell the mayor "This is our town now" roll diplomacy and crit succeed on a nat 2. you see in PF2 its not about a party of heroes adjusting and growing in a world but rather a world that grows and evolve around the heroes.Ghilteras wrote:The problem is not the crumbling wall vs the smooth wall. The problem is that if a challenge does not scale everybody will succeed because at higher lvl all players will have 20+ in all skills, making every DC less than that an automatic success. I don't like that. I don't want to scale my DCs just because of level. It's an added labor and there is no guidance on how I'm supposed to set it.
In PF 1st edition and D&D 5e untrained character stay behind so if I decide my wall is...Soldarc2018-08-09T00:28:05ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#252018-08-21T20:52:49Z2018-08-09T00:25:18Z<p>Why is "untrained characters stay behind" ever a good thing?</p>
<p>If there's a tactic that everyone in the party cannot succeed at (e.g. somebody in the party is decidedly not-stealthy) then the party tends not to even attempt it.</p>Why is "untrained characters stay behind" ever a good thing?
If there's a tactic that everyone in the party cannot succeed at (e.g. somebody in the party is decidedly not-stealthy) then the party tends not to even attempt it.PossibleCabbage2018-08-09T00:25:18ZRe: Forums: Running the Game: Are you forcing GMs to adjust skill checks DCs with character level?Ghilterashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vawc?Are-you-forcing-GMs-to-adjust-skill-checks#242018-08-15T03:59:48Z2018-08-09T00:21:29Z<p>The problem is not the crumbling wall vs the smooth wall. The problem is that if a challenge does not scale everybody will succeed because at higher lvl all players will have 20+ in all skills, making every DC less than that an automatic success. I don't like that. I don't want to scale my DCs just because of level. It's an added labor and there is no guidance on how I'm supposed to set it.</p>
<p>In PF 1st edition and D&D 5e untrained character stay behind so if I decide my wall is hard to climb and set DC20 then only the trained ppl will succeed. In PF2e everyone will, forcing me to add vampire bats to the climb and change the DC to 40. I don't see how anyone could like this system to be honest, how are you supposed to pick the new DC? Tables 10-2 and 10-3 would need to be constantly consulted to find a use case close to what you need. It's such a useless overcomplication.</p>The problem is not the crumbling wall vs the smooth wall. The problem is that if a challenge does not scale everybody will succeed because at higher lvl all players will have 20+ in all skills, making every DC less than that an automatic success. I don't like that. I don't want to scale my DCs just because of level. It's an added labor and there is no guidance on how I'm supposed to set it.
In PF 1st edition and D&D 5e untrained character stay behind so if I decide my wall is hard to climb...Ghilteras2018-08-09T00:21:29Z