Actually Make the Sorcerer Different

[Talsharien]

There have been a number of bold steps in the play-test so far, and I really like the concept of the variant spell domain sorcerer. I do think however that to really make this class different from the Cleric, Druid and Wizard in relation to spell-casting, they should follow the spell point system for all casting of sorcerer spells and move them away from the vancian system.

Leave the system in place for the other casters, but make sorcerers based truly upon raw power.

[Blave]

That's not gonna happen.

- It's too complicated. The whole idea of PF2 is "learn one class and you can easily understand the others". Having one class with a completely unique way to cast spells is the exact opposite of simple.

- You'd need seperate spell points besides the spell points already in the game. Otherwise you get some very weird interactions with multiclassing. Say you're a level 10 sorcerer and have like 30 spell points to cast your spells or something like that. Now you multiclassed to Paladin and pick up channel life. Suddenly you can cast 30 max level heal spells per day!

[Talsharien]

Yeah that is an interesting point with the multi-classing options as they are.

[The Once and Future Kai]

Blave wrote:

- It's too complicated. The whole idea of PF2 is "learn one class and you can easily understand the others". Having one class with a completely unique way to cast spells is the exact opposite of simple.

I don't think that's quite the case. Common elements have been streamlined but there's still a lot of mechanical diversity. The Alchemist is mechanically quite different from any other classes. Vancian casters and spontaneous casters are still different. I think there's room for more varieties of magic but I'm fine if Paizo decides to leave point based "spellcasting" to a Psionics book from Dreamscarred Press.

I do think you make a good point on multiclassing.

[Souphin]

I don't think it's too hard especially with the spell points system.
2 suggestions
1. Let sorcerers use spell points to cast spells. Like how clerics get channel energy to cast heal. Sorcerers can use their spell points to case heighted spells using their spell points.
2. Bring back the arcanist powers and allow the sorcerer to spend spell points there.

[dnoisette]

I agree that Sorcerers do not feel so different from Wizards at the moment and it bothers me.
They're spontaneous casters and they have "bloodline" instead of "school" powers, but that is it.

I would like them to feel mechanically different, and not just with how they prepare spells.

Dangerous Sorcery somewhat achieves that, for example. You deal more damage with your damaging spells and only Sorcerers have this feat. This makes Sorcerer the obvious choice for blasting and gives them some sort of unique identity.

Now, I would like something similar but which does not require a feat.
I'd like Sorcerers to have something baked-in the class' primary talents to make them stand out and help differentiate them from other casters.
It's important that I stress the fact that I do not want something more powerful but rather something different.
I want it to be something that makes a player want to play a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard, not over a Wizard.

For instance, a player who is interested in having a TWF character can go with the Ranger because he likes the mechanics of Hunt Target or with the Rogue because he likes Sneack Attack better.
Whatever the player decides, their character will be very good at TWF but it will feel and play differently.

I want it to be the same with spellcasters, equal power level, just different options that makes you question what type of spellcaster you want to be.

Honestly, I feel that Sorcerers, instead of being limited in what spells they can heighten, should have had the ability to heighten them at will and without restrictions.
But that is something they would share with Bards and does not make them truly unique.

Maybe have Sorcerers interact with metamagic in unique ways?

[FangDragon]

A long time ago in the 3.0 era the DM I was playing with hated vanican casting and used a variant system similar to psionic power pools (he also let us overcharge spells, a bit like burn, which was rather OP although we loved the visuals).

It worked pretty well because everyone even clerics has it, although I think it might be difficult to balance sorcerer's vs vanican casters if something like that was adopted for PF2. Typically it meant more high level or vastly more low level spells could be cast. That sort of is the Sorcerer's USP but not to that extent.

[The Once and Future Kai]

dnoisette wrote:

Maybe have Sorcerers interact with metamagic in unique ways?

I'll second that idea.

[Talsharien]

dnoisette wrote:

Maybe have Sorcerers interact with metamagic in unique ways?

Third to that.

I have run PF1 with a spell point system and it can work. I quite like the idea of their being more of a divide between educated magic and instinctive.

Sorcerers should be instinctive IMO and therefore should use a different system to other casters.

The muulti-class issue could be a stumbling block however

[Byron Zibeck]

Spontaneous casting is enough of a difference between the Sorcerer and Wizard to justify choosing one over the other.

The real problem is in differentiating Sorcerer's from the Bard and other spontaneous casting classes such as the Oracle that is sure to come later. Bloodline Powers are a step in the right direction, but Sorcerer's might need a bit more of a signature ability, something that when an NPC uses it it screams sorcerer. Something along the lines of Druid's Wild Shaping, Cleric's Channel Energy, Bard's Inspire Courage, or even just the Wizard's Spellbook.

Several posters have suggested Metamagic is probably the way to go here, though I'm not sure how to implement this. Limiting metamagic to sorcerers seems to much of a nerf on other casters, and just changing the mechanics of how metamagic works won't really change the feel of the sorcerer. Others have suggested Arcanist-type powers, but these might be a little too strong without dropping Bloodline Powers (which are thematically appropriately). On the other hand, clerics get Channel, Domain Powers, and Spells, so maybe not.

What about something like a Bloodline Mutation, similar to Bloodline Arcana in that it's a constant ability, but that also changes the sorcerer's appearance. For instance, a Draconic Sorcerer might have scales, the provide a +1 conditional bonus to AC or some such.

[Emn1ty]

I think simply differentiating the Sorcerer's powers via bloodlines (rather than just swapping out their spell lists) is the best way. As it stands the powers are very lackluster and don't truly scream Sorcerer. There seems to be a distinct lack of passive abilities in Sorcerer Bloodlines and many other magical class features.

I think the Druidic Orders actually provide the necessary flavor that Sorcerer bloodlines presently lack.

Just take a look at the Storm Order. It gives you a skill (bloodlines do that, I'm good there). It gives you a Feat (Storm Born which has nice storm-themed flavor). And it gives you Tempest Surge.

Then look at the closest equivalent for Sorcerer, the Fey domain. It gives you a couple trained skills, swaps your entire spell list for Primal, and then gives you some spells that are spooky, fey-like spells. The initial power isn't too different or unique than other spells at that level and honestly you may as well use Sleep as it's better in general. Other than that, there's little direction for the kind of Sorcerer you are.

Maybe when there are more bloodlines this will change, but thematically they feel week and don't really define the characters that much (though they are far and above better than the current Domains.

[Wyldfire]

Where other classes have feats that let you choose bits and pieces of the class features sorcerers are lock down into their bloodlines.

Instead I think there should just be a series of sorcerer feats you purchase and build as your own bloodlines rather than set ones.

Where druids choose an order, you might choose a power source e.g. divine, primal, arcane.. then you can choose feats like elemental which gives you heighten to spells with your element... that way you might choose primal and elemental feats to reflect you being from a dragon heritage or elemental... let the players choose the fluff that surrounds it.

[ClanPsi]

I completely agree that Sorcerers are boring. They get to choose spell lists, which is neat, but that's it. Nothing else about them is interesting. 5e made Sorcerers super f*cking cool and unique, why can't PF2?

[citricking]

Blave wrote:

- You'd need seperate spell points besides the spell points already in the game. Otherwise you get some very weird interactions with multiclassing. Say you're a level 10 sorcerer and have like 30 spell points to cast your spells or something like that. Now you multiclassed to Paladin and pick up channel life. Suddenly you can cast 30 max level heal spells per day!

There's an easy solution to that, have all powers balanced around the same power level. A sorcerer can already mc paladin for channel life, which is way better than any power they have. The two druid wild order's powers are better than normal, so they made them unselectable with multiclass, but that makes a druid not want to select other powers. Powers should be of comparable power to other powers.

Personally I think they should make the sorcerer con based spell point based, absorb the 1e kineticist.

[Lady Melo]

Honestly Sorcerer might be kind of cool with a pool of known spells that are all cast at the highest level, starting from like 4 and growing to (10-12) times a day (about the number of top 3 spell levels of wizard). {I would keep this pool separate then spell point / focus)

While damage and healing spells require you to use top 2 slots to remain effective, many other spells of the traditional caster types (Buff, Utility, Debuff) can still get good use out of lower level slots.

When compared to a wizard (especially with quick prep) the classes would feel immensely different, while remaining very simple. The sorcerer could spontaneously cast more powerful spells, but far less total spells, and as usual with less versatility.

So i feel like it would be a proper solid trade off with wizard and cleric (9 spells in top 3 + all them bonus heals).

I could even see a mechanic to burn up, bleed, or gamble for a spell or two more when you run out, it would fit (though I don't personally like the resource pool expanding too much on a luck based nature, so i would prefer not).

[shroudb]

Honestly it would make much more sense for a "caster that has his spells innate" to just make the more powerful as he grows rather than getting new ones and swapping old ones all the time.

Something like very few spells known, like less than 10 at max, but all of them being stronger.

I toyed with the idea of reducing base spell level of a spell at every few levels (like 4 or so I guess?)

What this does is increasing heightened effects (a base level 2 fireball would not only mean double the fireballs, but level 3 fireballs also deal an extra 2d6 compared to everyone else's 3rd level fireballs)

If you wish, at the next decrease, you could even make it a 1st level spell, meaning 3ple the amount plus a bunch of extra damage from heightening.

[Draco18s]

Here's a thought:

Make Wizards learn their spells at each spell level (not sorcerers).
Spontaneous Heightening is changed to be "you can cast any spell at any level."

[masda_gib]

Agreed on making sorcerers more different.

In my opinion the sorcerer should be much more defined by their bloodline. While a wizard is a caster first and a shool specialis second, it should be switched for the sorcerer. Bloodline first and caster second.

Maybe reduce spell slots and add more bloodline powers. Give each bloodline a few power choices instead of a fixed selection.

[Bluescale]

Frankly, I would have preferred sorcerers be more like 1E kinetisists, drawing on and shaping raw inborn power instead of casting distict spells like the wizard. Barring that, if you want to give bloodlines more oomph, you could do like the Oracle from 1E and have a bunch of 1st level class feats for each bloodlines that can be picked across the life of the character, instead of three fixed abilities at specific levels.

[Wolfism]

I like everything about what bluescale just said.

Also both, why not both those options.

[Elleth]

Emn1ty wrote:

I think simply differentiating the Sorcerer's powers via bloodlines (rather than just swapping out their spell lists) is the best way. As it stands the powers are very lackluster and don't truly scream Sorcerer. There seems to be a distinct lack of passive abilities in Sorcerer Bloodlines and many other magical class features.

I think the Druidic Orders actually provide the necessary flavor that Sorcerer bloodlines presently lack.

Just take a look at the Storm Order. It gives you a skill (bloodlines do that, I'm good there). It gives you a Feat (Storm Born which has nice storm-themed flavor). And it gives you Tempest Surge.

Then look at the closest equivalent for Sorcerer, the Fey domain. It gives you a couple trained skills, swaps your entire spell list for Primal, and then gives you some spells that are spooky, fey-like spells. The initial power isn't too different or unique than other spells at that level and honestly you may as well use Sleep as it's better in general. Other than that, there's little direction for the kind of Sorcerer you are.

Maybe when there are more bloodlines this will change, but thematically they feel week and don't really define the characters that much (though they are far and above better than the current Domains.

Orders really would make an interesting basis here. I think it would have the plus side of not making a sorc feel like they're missing a level 1 feat - as one gets bundled in with their bloodline.

I will confess though to really liking the Imperial Sorc, thanks to all of its powers being "cheat magic. You are the magic boss, show those plebs".

Also agreeing with ClanPsi that 5e sorcs are cool. I normally like complaining about 5e classes not being quite my jam, but unique flexibility with magic does fit pretty well with the thematics of sorc.

So I guess some weak passive bloodline effects (e.g. fey sorcs getting circ bonuses to certain things based off terrain, or dragon sorcs being able to sometimes apply a conditional bonus to the damage of spells in a type appropriate to their dragon), or unique metamagics might be fun. Either way it could be handled the order way with regards to making the abilities level 1 feats that might work better for their bloodline.

Thematically though I think PF2 sorcs are really great so far.

[Emn1ty]

Elleth wrote:

Orders really would make an interesting basis here. I think it would have the plus side of not making a sorc feel like they're missing a level 1 feat - as one gets bundled in with their bloodline.

I will confess though to really liking the Imperial Sorc, thanks to all of its powers being "cheat magic. You are the magic boss, show those plebs".

Also agreeing with ClanPsi that 5e sorcs are cool. I normally like complaining about 5e classes not being quite my jam, but unique flexibility with magic does fit pretty well with the thematics of sorc.

So I guess some weak passive bloodline effects (e.g. fey sorcs getting circ bonuses to certain things based off terrain, or dragon sorcs being able to sometimes apply a conditional...

I guess what makes me realize that the Sorc is less interesting in 2e is that in 1e, the first thing I thought about was what bloodline/concept I wanted for my Sorcerer and that would dictate where I went with the character. Did I want a trickster magician? Did I want an Ice Queen? Or perhaps I wanted a molten rock and I'd pick Fire + Rock themed bloodlines. The options were numerous and always interesting, allowing unique combinations and they always defined your character heavily.

In 2e, the most important aspect of the bloodline is the spell list it gives you, the rest is just nice additional things. What bugged me most was that the spell lists often conflicted with the concepts I had. Even trying to make a Storm Sorcerer found me bouncing between two inadequate bloodlines (Fey and Draconic).

[shroudb]

to be fair.

in someways, Bloodlines are tenfold more improtant in 2e than in 1e because they alter your whole spell list which is like your most major class feature.

it just doesn't feel that way due to 0 flavor afterwards.

[ClanPsi]

I REALLY like the Kineticist suggestions. I always felt like Kineticists were the most Sorcerer-like class in PF1. Making them a base class in PF2 would be SO AWESOME!!!

[Draco18s]

shroudb wrote:

it just doesn't feel that way due to 0 flavor afterwards.

Right. And that's kind of the problem.

A sorcerer with the divine spell list is a cleric without Channel. And has been discussed in another thread, "the cleric" part of the class is a useless bump on a log that just so happens to be attached to Channel Energy.

[Voss]

I wouldn't go that far. Domains are underwhelming, but clerics are on a far better base chassis than sorcerers/wizards (not randomly punished on saves and HPs, better weapon/armor proficiencies). They need some spells back, but that's about it.

But need 'spell fixin' is universal for everyone.

[Draco18s]

Voss wrote:

but clerics are on a far better base chassis than sorcerers/wizards

You're not wrong.

But that doesn't make the cleric any less bad. It just means they're not actually last.