blahpers |
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When casting summon monster, summon nature's ally, or other similar spells that allow selection from a table of options, when does a caster "lock in" her choice of which monster to summon? Do you declare "I'm casting summon monster ii to summon 1d3 dogs", or do you declare "I'm casting summon monster ii, finish casting the spell next round, and then say "I choose 1d3 fiendish dogs" or "I choose a small air elemental" as it resolves?
Barring definitive text and/or reasoning, I'm inclined to allow the latter. The caster is already unable to choose placement definitively until the spell resolves since in some cases she doesn't even know how many creature's she's summoning. It seems simpler to make all of the necessary choices at once. (Note that targeted spells fit this paradigm--a caster need not select a spell's target(s) until she finishes casting the spell. Unfortunately, I can find no text one way or the other with respect to other decisions.)
LordKailas |
I always assumed that everything was decided except placement of the summons for the reasons you gave above.
My reasoning is that in some cases you are locked in to what you can summon with the particular spell before it's even cast. The inevitable domain for example gets planar binding but can only use it to bind inevitables.
That being said, mechanically there's no reason the decisions couldn't be made until the spell has been finished casting. For all we know the last word(s) of the spell are the name of the thing you want to summon. If the the summon monster spell was very different to summon a dog vs a dolphin then summon dog would be a separate spell from summon dolphin.
Thematically I like the idea that you choose when you start casting, but the fact that you don't have to decide what you summon until you start to cast the spell you've "memorized", suggests these choices can be made once you finish casting the spell.
Val'bryn2 |
A fair point, which was why I said my way was personal preference. I understand that the name could be the last part of the spell, but I believe the ritual to summon, while it is more or less fill-in-the-blank as to what you summon, also has an ever so slightly different form depending on what you summon. It makes sense that the way you do it would be slightly different, you're not likely to use the same gestures and words to summon a lantern archon as to call up a barghest.
Azothath |
I agree that normally a spell caster must have pertinent decisions made when the casting comes into effect.
Some spells require a bit of the element on hand when you start and the spell gains that type. (I don't see that text in Pathfinder summoning spells). It becomes an upfront(leading) requirement as a material component.
For smooth game flow it is best to tell the GM what you intend. Counterspells and dispelling may happen along with Spellcraft checks. Pass a note if you want to be secretive. Honestly nobody in the party technically knows what you're doing unless you do the same thing over and over. Besides, the GM may courteously inform you that you cannot summon a dretch that looks like a demon lord with Summon Monster III.
blahpers |
From Magic, Casting Time CRB: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
Ha, I knew I missed a section. Casting time. And that isn't even a terrible place for the distinction.
Thanks!
@Azothath, in this case it's less about playing it close to the vest and more about "well, crap, after a round of casting now there's no room for a large fire elemental, guess I'll summon 1d3 medium whatsits instead". This comes up a lot for my druid.
LordKailas |
Dave Justus wrote:From Magic, Casting Time CRB: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."Ha, I knew I missed a section. Casting time. And that isn't even a terrible place for the distinction.
Thanks!
@Azothath, in this case it's less about playing it close to the vest and more about "well, crap, after a round of casting now there's no room for a large fire elemental, guess I'll summon 1d3 medium whatsits instead". This comes up a lot for my druid.
makes sense. I can also see it mattering in other ways. If you see someone casting a summon monster spell, and you identify it as such with a spellcraft check. It makes sense that the person making the check would also know "what" is being summoned, but only if the caster has defined what they are summoning at the start of the spell.
Pizza Lord |
Unfortunately, a summon spell may also take on a spell descriptor depending on what you are summoning. There may be effects or protections or wards in place that would damage, hinder, or even prevent a certain spell type from being cast. This could be a significantly important distinction if you have to allow a caster to fully complete casting (which could be 1 round and material components) only to prevent it due to an effect that should have occurred when a spell of that type was even attempted.
I certainly agree with the quoted text from Dave Justus. I am just pointing out that it doesn't cover every contingency.
Azothath |
Summon Monster spells.
...When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type. ... Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. Summoning these creatures makes the summoning spell’s type match your alignment.
The summon monster spells have numerous entries representing creatures that are summoned from the Outer Planes, and thus have the celestial or fiendish template or can be summoned with the entropic or resolute template (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2, pages 292 and 293, respectively).
the last paragraph is extra (verified using Archive of Nethys) but addresses feats that wizards can take as I don't believe entropic or resolute templates are freely available.
The text on the table clarifies the template/alignment,"* This creature is summoned with the celestial template if you are good, or the fiendish template if you are evil; you may choose either if you are neutral." thus it only may match part of your alignment.
LordKailas |
How many such effects are there--namely, effects that should have occurred when beginning to cast a summoning spell with a particular descriptor rather than when completing the spell?
The only effect like that that comes to mind are the planar traits. Where it becomes difficult if not impossible to cast a lawful spell while in a strongly chaotic plane IIRC.
But honestly, even then I think it's fine for the spell to simply fizzle when you pick a lawful creature at the end of the summoning. You've lost your action either way.
Yure |
From Magic, Casting Time CRB: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
That's a nice find, previously I would have said it was part the verbiage and signals required to make the summon. Bravo!
NOW... The real question is this. If you don't speak the creature's language; how and when do you command it to attack?
Is it with the casting? If with the casting could you tell creature to change target's afterwards?
LordKailas |
Dave Justus wrote:From Magic, Casting Time CRB: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."That's a nice find, previously I would have said it was part the verbiage and signals required to make the summon. Bravo!
NOW... The real question is this. If you don't speak the creature's language; how and when do you command it to attack?
Is it with the casting? If with the casting could you tell creature to change target's afterwards?
It looks like if you can't communicate with it, it acts like an aggressive guard dog. It won't go after you but otherwise it just attacks the nearest perceived enemy.
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
note that the bolded part only applies when you can communicate with the thing you summon.