There is a little confusion in a play group I am in over how to determine the bonus for the touch attack for spells.
One person pointed out:
Pg 197 - In both cases, make an attack roll.... your proficiency modifier for a spell's attack roll is the same as your proficiency modifier with spell rolls.
But does that mean you use your primary spell casting attribute when making touch attacks?
Why does it specifically reference touch attacks as being finesse attacks in a later section?
My initial interpretation was that you use the same proficiency modifier (UTEML) as your casting checks, but that you use either your STR or DEX mod for the roll.
How have other people read this?
And how has it been done in the developer's play tests?
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Your proficiency modifier is level + proficiency. So no attribute. What this means is that spellcasters get better at hitting with spells when their spellcasting proficiency increases at 12th, 16th, and 19th levels. You always use Dex to make a ranged attack, and you always use your choice of Str or Dex (because finesse) to make a melee touch attack.
The Spell Duelist's Wand and Spell Duelist's Glove magic items are the only other way I've seen to improve your spell attacks.
This is how I read it as well.
When I read the whole section, it clearly makes no sense to mention that a melee touch attack is a finesse attack if you would never be using DEX to attack anyway.
Some spells require you to succeed at an attack roll to affect the target. This is usually because they require you to touch your target, precisely aim a ray, or otherwise make an accurate attack. Any attack you make is part of the spell’s Somatic Casting action.
Usually, such spells require a melee touch attack or a ranged touch attack. In both cases, make an attack roll and compare the result to the target’s TAC. Your proficiency modifier for a spell’s attack roll is the same as your proficiency modifier with spell rolls. Spell attacks are unarmed, but they don’t apply any special benefits
from your weapons or unarmed attacks, nor do they deal any damage outside of what’s listed in the spell. Melee touch attacks have the finesse trait (see page 182). On a successful attack, your spell affects the target, and on a failure the spell is lost unless otherwise noted. Spells with a range of “touch” always require a melee touch attack when used against an unwilling target, but not when used
on a willing or unconscious target. Some spells require a normal melee attack or ranged attack instead of a touch attack. These work as described above, but they target AC instead of TAC
In the final CRB, it would be a good idea to have an example here to show exactly how it works.
However, someone who was at Paizo Con is saying that the attack rolls used the same attribute as the spell casting attribute so we could be wrong. They are saying that the finesse trait is there so it is clear that spells can be used with sneak attack.
However, someone who was at Paizo Con is saying that the attack rolls used the same attribute as the spell casting attribute so we could be wrong. They are saying that the finesse trait is there so it is clear that spells can be used with sneak attack.
Lots of reports from con play experiences violate the published rules - this does, as Sneak Attack seemingly limits you to a strike with a weapon.
You deal additional damage to flat-footed creatures (see page 322). If you Strike
a flat-footed creature with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse
unarmed attack, or a ranged attack, you deal 1d6 extra precision damage. For a
ranged attack with a thrown weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.
The only way this works for spell attacks is if it also works with any damage source at all that you provide, but with a seemingly weird limitation on using non-finesse, non-agile weapons.
Buff Rogue: "Sweet, a crit! Apply my sneak attack dice"
GM: "Sorry, you're wielding a battle axe, you don't qualify."
[later]
Wizard with Rogue multiclass: "Sweet, a crit! Apply my sneak attack in addition to my Produce Flame persistent damage!"
GM: "Sure, that makes sense."
I think you're limited to weapon strikes.
It is a play test, so I am sure there are a whole bucket of rules with confusing wording. Is there a centralized place to post questions like this for developer feed back?
I also looked at the pregen characters and their spells clearly don't use their spell casting attribute for attack rolls with spells.
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It is a play test, so I am sure there are a whole bucket of rules with confusing wording. Is there a centralized place to post questions like this for developer feed back?
I also looked at the pregen characters and their spells clearly don't use their spell casting attribute for attack rolls with spells.
I think they have GMs who don't have a full grasp of all the rules yet (how could they?) and are winging it to an extent, even Paizo employees who have probably used different iterations and don't know some of the final implementations.
Apparently, Herolab online is pushing using the spell casting attribute when listing modifiers for spells, running counter to our assumption that it should be dex or str based. This really needs clarification quickly.
Apparently, Herolab online is pushing using the spell casting attribute when listing modifiers for spells, running counter to our assumption that it should be dex or str based. This really needs clarification quickly.
I agree it does require clarifications as I two got from my reading that is is your proficeny bounus+casting attribute. To give a example a level 1 18 charisma bard would have +5 to hit with touch attacks
Apparently, Herolab online is pushing using the spell casting attribute when listing modifiers for spells, running counter to our assumption that it should be dex or str based. This really needs clarification quickly.
I agree it does require clarifications as I two got from my reading that is is your proficeny bounus+casting attribute. To give a example a level 1 18 charisma bard would have +5 to hit with touch attacks
Even though I disagree with you, I know that you are not alone and the "evidence" I have to present about why spell attack rolls and spell rolls are different probably stems back from discussions with developers during the archived pre-release board and includes speculation instead of rules based support. After carefully rereading every possible relevant section of the book, there is no definitive sentence that makes it clear one way or another.
I would argue that no where in the rules where it talks about attacks or touch attacks, does it ever mention any other potential attribute modifier than STR or DEX, but it rarely talks about spell attacks explicitly without also using the words "spell roll" in the same sentence.
Monsters clearly do not use their spell roll for spell attacks, but we have been told repeatedly that monsters are not built according to player rules.