Lost Eye possibly equals dead character?


Starfinder Society

**** Venture-Agent, Washington—Tacoma aka Link2000

So in yesterday's session two of us received a critical hit from a weapon with the wound critical effect. We coincidentally both lost an eye. My character just hit level 2 and has effectively burned all credits on improving gear. The cheapest replacement "eyes" (dark vision capacitors) will take my weapon, armor, and the scenario reward. And the other player doesn't even have the option as he just doesn't have enough credits even after selling gear.

According to the Guide, all conditions with a mechanical effect have to be cleared by the end of the scenario or the character is effectively "dead". Since a lost eye imparts a -2 on perception, does this mean that the other player's character is dead? Does this mean that my character (a soldier) is running into the next scenario equipped with no weapons or armor?

How does this work? The GM is holding off on any final calls until we see what the community thinks on this. Seems strange that if we had lost a limb instead, this wouldn't be much of an issue as the scenario rewards could pay the 100 credits to buy a prosthetic, yet the same critical effect hitting an eye is now drawing problems.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Missing an eye isn't a "condition", so you're fine.

**** Venture-Agent, Washington—Tacoma aka Link2000

You sure?

If the wound effect gave "severed limb", would that also not be a condition?

I just want to be clear, because that's what brought all this on anyways when we searched through rules on how to get back an eye. People were saying that a lost limb would need a prosthetic, and a lost eye would just suck until you can buy "eyes". That was for non SFS play though.

I would greatly appreciate your version, I also just don't want to run into this in the future and have lots of variance.

Do you by chance have a section in the rulebook that I may reference?

Dark Archive *

Conditions usually refers to things that have the potential to kill a character over time if not treated. Poisons, diseases, bleed effects, and things like that need to be cleared up in some fashion before the end of the scenario, or the character would die in the nebulous time between scenarios. Permanent static penalties do not need to be cleared up immediately (and are not called 'conditions' for the most part), since they won't directly kill you in the short or intermediate term.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Lost eyes seem to be coming up a lot lately. Must be a scenario out there with a crit-happy wounding weapon..

So if you lose a leg, you have three options:
1) get a Regenerate spell (expensive)
2) get an augmented leg that does something special (expensive)
3) get a prosthetic leg (cheap)

For eyes, option 3 isn't written into the book. However, I'm not convinced that crit table is meant to have wild variation in how nasty the effects are - all are nasty, but they shouldn't vary on a scale of "100 credits for a plastic replacement" to "permadead unless you're rich".

If this happened with me at the helm as GM I'd be inclined to rule that the prosthetics in the CRB are examples, and that similar prosthetics exist for other body parts that can be lost, at similar prices.

In general we're supposed to run as written, not make up rules. However, it's a very new game system, not all the wrinkles have been ironed out yet. Sometimes pieces of rule are missing, and that is when as a GM you have to make more far-reaching calls.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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World of Dim Light wrote:
Conditions usually refers to things that have the potential to kill a character over time if not treated. Poisons, diseases, bleed effects, and things like that need to be cleared up in some fashion before the end of the scenario, or the character would die in the nebulous time between scenarios. Permanent static penalties do not need to be cleared up immediately (and are not called 'conditions' for the most part), since they won't directly kill you in the short or intermediate term.

I'm not sure I agree with that. PFS has more tradition on this topic of course, but I think the rule there exists for two reasons;

1) some measure of realism, in that things that could kill you can't be allowed to fester

2) the next GM shouldn't be burdened with the specialist game effects from a scenario he wasn't involved in. If I get a weird case in scenario A, the GM of scenario B doesn't have access to the rules for it and would be placed in a bad position if I brought it across. He wouldn't be able to look up the DC if I tried to get a Remove Curse either.

Reason #2 explains why some conditions are allowed to persist - they're very well-understood conditions with clearly defined game mechanics, as well as clearly defined remedies. Negative levels are clearly fixed by Restoration for example.

In that respect, while losing an eye is a "condition", I think it could be considered a "nonlethal" one. IIRC the Starfinder Guild Guide goes into making blind characters...

***** ⦵⦵⦵

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I highly doubt SFS is going to kill characters over needing glasses.

Wait for our insect overlord to get back from gencon, and the concrud to fade. The only problem here is that there are about 3 good solutions to pick from. (robot eyes for 100 alex being one of them)

In the meantime i'm putting stock in eyepatches. Arrrrr.

**** Venture-Agent, Washington—Tacoma aka Link2000

Thanks for the insight everyone! Until we get some more "official" word, the GM is just going to mark on our Chronicles that we have a missing eye, with the intent on hopefully everything being a little more clear in a week or two.

We will check up on this thread in case any updates occur.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

So if you lose a leg, you have three options:

1) get a Regenerate spell (expensive)
2) get an augmented leg that does something special (expensive)
3) get a prosthetic leg (cheap)

4) leave it as is (cheapest)

You can create a character with one arm, one leg, one ear and one eye. I see no reason why someone who didn't start a scenario that way must end a scenario that way.

Step 8 of filling out a Chronicle Sheet wrote:
If the character gained an ongoing condition like a curse or disease during the scenario, the player should note that on the sheet as well. See Dealing with Afflictions below for more information on noting conditions gained and cleared during a scenario or after its conclusion.

I realize everyone reads text differently, but Starfinder went out of its way to define "conditions" (see the various Condition Cards), and "missing a pinky finger" isn't one of them. The example we're given here is "like a curse or disease", things you need to make "ongoing" checks for. Missing a body part is not equivalent.

Dealing with Afflictions wrote:
At the end of a scenario, a PC might have been afflicted with any number of possible afflictions, such as blindness, a curse, deafness, a disease, or a poison.

This list expands on the examples from earlier. Things like blindness and deafness don't have "ongoing" checks required, like with diseases and poisons, but they are still categorized under Starfinder's list of Conditions.

Page 15 of the Roleplaying Guild Guide wrote:
Any affliction that would result in an unplayable character must be resolved at the table once the game ends. This typically involves the remove affliction spell, either cast by a fellow PC or purchased as a service from an NPC. A character who does not resolve such conditions should be marked as dead.

And then we have this.

First off, remove affliction does not restore missing body parts. It references the same sorts of conditions and afflictions discussed thus far, which should indicate that missing limbs is not a condition or affliction.

But second, and most importantly, the affliction must result in an unplayable character.

Missing an eye, limb, or whatever doesn't make your character unplayable. Therefore, you can continue enjoying your 0/20 vision.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

I'm going to second most of what Dim Light and Nefreet said. You need to clear any afflictions that still have a duration to run (usually diseases) before you "close out" a scenario. Any effects that have finished, even with a permanent negative result like blindness, but don't result in an unplayable character do not have to be cleared.

Players can play as a naturally blind (or deaf) character, so simply "being blind" doesn't make you unplayable. Neither does missing one eye. Just make sure that it is noted on the chronicle and that the PC is taking a -2 on perception checks.

Spoiler:
And of course we mean the literal definition of "unplayable." As in, "your PC cannot take actions in the adventure."

Even the most cursory search of the messageboards will find at least one powergamer claiming that every single class, archetype, spell, feat, and piece of equipment is "unplayable" because it's so "underpowered." That's not what the Guide means :)

Exo-Guardians

I lost a hand in one adventure, and the rules weren't clear on if I could replace just a hand, or if I had to get a full cybernetic arm replacement. At no point did anyone suggest that Zoggy was no longer a valid character.

While I waited for a ruling from Thursty and Owen, I just went to SFS 1-10 with a goblin wrench welded to my armor's forearm. It didn't have any game effect, but it was hilarious.

I couldn't use my pike properly because it is a two-handed weapon, so I just had to punch bad guys with Hammer Fist or Natural Weapons. The GM got exasperated when I did 32 damage in one round.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Society Developer

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Official Clarification: Lost limbs or severed eyes count as a survivable condition between sessions, though the occurrence must be noted on the Chronicle Sheet of the scenario where the loss occurred.

Design Notes: OK, prosthetic limbs are reasonably priced in the game, so I don't think lost limbs are too much of an issue to replace, but for some multi-limbed species it might be thematic to have some 'battle damage'. Severed eyes are a BIT more of a pricey venture and I'm going to bring it up with some people internally to see if we can ease the terrible potential of a weapon with the Wound characteristic taking out both eyes in a low-tier scenario. :D

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Maybe just make prosthetic eyes, that function the same as regular eyes, and give them the same cost as other prosthetic limbs?

Sovereign Court **** ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka The Masked Ferret

Nefreet wrote:
Maybe just make prosthetic eyes, that function the same as regular eyes, and give them the same cost as other prosthetic limbs?

Add cheap prosthetics for everything that could be lost with the Wounding property? That would address most of the issue with the wounding property, and give more things for people who want to build a person with many prosthetics.

**** Venture-Agent, Washington—Tacoma aka Link2000

Thanks for the official clarification! Much appreciated!

Paizo Employee Starfinder Society Developer

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Even More Official Errata: After speaking with the Starfinder team and its designer, we've decided that eyes can be included in the list of "limbs" replaceable by a standard prosthetic limb. Note: this only applies to a standard prosthetic limb and not to hideaway limbs or those with storage.

I suspect this will appear in a more official Starfinder Core Rulebook errata in the future, but for now, this ruling is official for Starfinder Society Organized Play.

Exo-Guardians

Dang, I wanted Hideaway Eyes. Oh, hey, Weaponized Prosthesis Eyes! Er, I suppose that's just an Optical Laser.

Side note, I was a little bummed that the Weaponized Prosthesis was an "Arm and Hand" augment again, meaning that people with just hand replacements can't have a tiny holdout weapon built into their palm. No, I'm not going to get an Enervating Hand necrograft. Gross.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

What about creating prostetic eyes with a light/motion sensor, as opposed to one that gives Dark Vision, in a future book?

⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Woodbury aka Wishing Wells

Zoggy Grav wrote:

I lost a hand in one adventure, and the rules weren't clear on if I could replace just a hand, or if I had to get a full cybernetic arm replacement. At no point did anyone suggest that Zoggy was no longer a valid character.

While I waited for a ruling from Thursty and Owen, I just went to SFS 1-10 with a goblin wrench welded to my armor's forearm. It didn't have any game effect, but it was hilarious.

I couldn't use my pike properly because it is a two-handed weapon, so I just had to punch bad guys with Hammer Fist or Natural Weapons. The GM got exasperated when I did 32 damage in one round.

Yeah... That was a thing...

Though I do like that limb damage and injuries are able to get treatment of some kind, taking a would be disability as a way to empower the character instead of "retiring" them.

****

It's all part of being a pirate.

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