Tridus wrote: @Colette Brunel
Just wanted to say I appreciate your writeups, especially after the group I'm playing in got utterly curb stomped in Mirrored Moon last night. It's certainly nice to not feel alone in it.
On the first encounter, no less. The poor Wizard only had two outcomes for his spells:
1. He cast Magic Missle and did damage.
2. The sea monster critically succeeded on its save.
That was it. There was literally no other outcome. Talk about feeling ineffective. :( Our DM (a very experienced 1e DM and someone who seeks to provide a challenge and have monsters act sensibly, but will not generally play to ruthlessly murder the party) actually thought the Wizard had miscalculated his save DC because it was so easy to make.
We only really investigated two hexes so I don't know how well that worked, but it felt like we needed pretty high rolls to succeed. That's a theme throughout the playtest, but it felt worse here.
DM also wondered if maybe he was supposed to weaken encounters for a party of four or something. When it can take half of the Fighter's HP in a single attack, it certainly feels overtuned.
I do have to wonder why that sea serpent is in there, at all. It's so beyond the PCs' ability to defeat it (especially using the underwater combat rules) that our ref had to hand-wave our escape just so we didn't all die.
And if dying was an option, we would have expected there to be something important about the encounter or at least have it balanced against the level of the PCs. But the critter moves too fast and quickly gets out of range before anyone can do anything.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Adam Smith wrote: TOZ wrote: I'm also curious how the Order of the Amber Die sessions compare. There are some excellent points being made in this thread, it's awesome to see how many groups are trying to stick to RAW for the Playtest. I wanted to chime in and say thank you to all of you for putting in the time to interact on threads like this, I can say that OAD members do frequently keep up with what is being discussed, and we spent about an hour before each playtest session just going over what is currently being said among the community. Some members even like to cite specific comments they’ve read, and we go around the table trying to interpret elements of the playtest. We agree with many of the comments here, in that we felt the best way to offer data (and the point of the Playtest) was to play as close as possible to RAW. That being said, there is no "right" way to play and enjoy the game, so while our style works for us, every group should find what's comfortable for them.
As for TOZ's question about how OAD compares to the live games mentioned in a couple of posts above, we don't skip any encounters or change anything in the narrative structure, and play everything as tight as we possibly can. Related to this, we have sometimes struggled with expressing one particular piece of data after every session: total session time played. When learning an entirely new system and at the same time trying to accurately record how long it takes to play, we've been wondering if other groups count the time they spend looking up rules? Since our game is out in front of the community, we feel obligated to spend time looking up rules (we’ve even texted authors in the middle of a game) in order to make sure it's played right. As a result, we've tried to employ a system similar to stoppage time in soccer, where we estimate the amount of time spent looking up rules, and remove some of that from our data. The same goes for time spent in character creation. Do players count the time they only spend making the character, or include the time spent looking up how all the spells, feats, and abilities work for the first time as well? In the latter case, that same player a couple of years down the line would have a better understanding of the system, and thus the amount of time spent in character creation will likely drop to a more accurate average for the edition.
When it comes to the doom, gloom, and TPKs, hang in there everyone—we might just have another TPK to show off in a future report, too! :) I'm mostly curious to see how much is the rules and how much is GM variance.
It looks like all update 1.5 did to the kraken was give it the weak template. Something tells me that this is still a destined TPK.
I do not know if I will ever get around to writing up proper reports. My life is getting more busy, and will only get more busy by November. My surgery recovery is plodding along at a slothful pace. I am sorry if I am letting everyone down.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Adam Smith wrote: TOZ wrote: I'm also curious how the Order of the Amber Die sessions compare. As for TOZ's question... ... You're absolutely right to ponder GM variance, it is definitely a significant factor but hard to quantify. I'm trying to think of the best way to at least offer something regarding that here. I was featured in the Killer GMs panel at PaizoCon for finding a way to kill the same character twice in a single round in one of our adventures for the blog? 100% legal too. :) Seriously though, I have gone very middle-of-the-road with everything in the Playtest, as I'd be undoing our own hard work to skew the data by going out of my way to kill PCs. Each monster has behaved exactly as described by the author, even when some of those tactics did not feel particularly advantageous. None of the monsters in the Playtest have run away unless the author stated it was to occur. When given open license, such as Mark's instruction's for the Night Heralds' prep at the top of p.56 (Part 4), I did take the full advantage given. Hope that helps somewhat?
I hope your recovery starts going better. :( Don't worry about letting people down, because you're not. Focus on what you need to do first.
Colette, don't feel beholden to the playtest or the community. Health comes first, always.
As for GM variance, etc. - the adventures are created with skippable Encounters and the Surveys ask which Encounters were skipped. This is valuable data for Adventure design. I do wonder if it isn't a bit misleading as we are testing primarily the rules, but the data is available for Paizo to see.
What I am ambivalent about is using non-written ways to evade Encounters (e.g. diplomancing Monsters where no such Option is defined in the Adventure), as this may lead to strange interactions and confusing data.
As for the random superhard Monsters I - really don't know. The should have some built-in "how to escape if Sh** hit the fan", but mostly there is nothing written in.
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My party for our first run of Red Flags was comprised of a bard, a wizard, a GMPC Intelligence rogue, and a GMPC Charisma rogue.
Due to obnoxiously high Diplomacy DCs, the party did not learn much useful information before the gala, even with two Hobnobbers in the party. In fact, the GMPC Charisma rogue critically failed to gather information on the mysterious "K," and the Intelligence rogue critically failed to gather information on Necerion, thus tipping off the NPCs to the party.
Nobody fell for casting spells at the gala. The players commanded the GMPC Charisma rogue to woo Kadhibat, and she successfully pried information out of him. The bard then entreated Whark with a 600-gp tribute and an offering, and succeeded, but did not critically succeed. Thus, Whark simply instructed the party to wait for Necerion to go into the vault, and for the party to catch Necerion. The party did just that.
Thanks to Sense the Unseen, the party spotted the invisible Necerion very quickly. Necerion fled and threw up a quickened wall of force, but the party's wizard gave chase with a heightened passwall. Unfortunately, Necerion's mind blank and fly meant that the party had no real chance of consistently pinpointing Necerion, so Necerion got away.
The GMPC Intelligence rogue succeeded on an Arcana check to find the right portal. The party uneventfully used fly to cross the obstacle course, and then the rogues used Hero Points to reroll Perception checks against the mirrors and identify them as traps. This section was uneventful. I rationalized that the lower level was dark, and the wizard was a halfling with no darkvision, so prying eye was not an option before heading down the stairs.
Before the party headed down the final staircase, I asked them if they would like to undertake preparations, and I reminded them of the scrolls that the rogues were carrying along. Apparently, the two players thought that they were merely headed to the next floor of the dungeon, so they saw no reason to pre-buff beforehand, or activate invisibility.
I stationed the weak kraken in such a way that it was in the Searching exploration tactic, and thus using Seek once per round in a 30-foot cone towards the entrance, a position I thought reasonable for a monster literally mind-controlled into being a vigilant vault guardian. Krakens have Intelligence and Wisdom modifiers of +5, so they are quite clever. Thus, the kraken was not hiding, but there it would almost certainly succeed at Seeking the party. I had one GMPC rogue peek around the corner, but the weak kraken rolled high on Seek, thus prompting initiative.
Initiative happened, with the weak kraken winning because of monster skills. The kraken opened up by hitting and grabbing the bard and the wizard, even through cover. It grabbed those two. The bard hurled a possession and the wizard tried a baleful polymorph, but the weak kraken critically succeeded against both. The bard and the wizard failed to escape, sealing their fate against the weak kraken, who was then free to completely wreck the two spellcasters.
From there, given that freeing people from the weak kraken was all but impossible, I had the two GMPC rogues leave their friends to their deaths. The two GMPC rogues complain towards Whark about the kraken. I rationalized that over the course of several hours, Whark would eventually agree, apologize for the kraken incident [GONE WRONG][GONE TENTACLED], and then hand The Last Theorem over to the Esoteric Order. And that was the anticlimactic ending to the first run of Red Flags.
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Also, completely unsurprisingly, social tactics were more or less nonfunctional during the social side of Red Flags. It did not help that the adventure had its own method of handling social interactions.
Exploration mode was somewhat more viable during the dungeon crawling section, yet it still reared its ugly head in just how clunky and unnecessary it was.
Also, there is no Diplomacy (Request) DC for Whark listed. I had to conjure one on the spot, DC 34.
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So only the 2 PCs got grabbed by the Kraken? That seems an unlikely coincidence. And then the GMPCs ran away? I guess you don't play GMPCs with the same overbearing need to win as you do the monsters.
Colette Brunel wrote: The problem, of course, seems to be that the monster math is overtuned. Thus, whether or not this was the developers' intent, encounters are balanced around players and their PCs playing to win and focusing fire, and monsters lackadaisically running around doing "cool" but tactically inefficient things. This at least we can agree on being a problem. I shouldn't have to waste 2/3rds of my actions, or use enemies several levels beneath my heroes to prevent killing them.
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Hello everyone,
I've had to remove a lot of posts from a conversation that derailed the thread. Again, we want to allow you to share your feedback and experiences with other GMs, but this is not the place to critique someone's style of play. There are other forums on our site that would be more appropriate places for that kind of discussion. Keep your replies civil, and be cognizant of how your replies come off.
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I redid the kraken battle. I was able to recruit the wizard's player for this, so I controlled the bard, the Intelligence rogue, and the Charisma rogue. Due to previous rerolls in the adventure, the Intelligence rogue had no Hero Points and the Charisma rogue had only 1 Hero Point, while the wizard and the bard were at 2 Hero Points. Since James Jacobs has already weighed in on Intimidation (Demoralize), I avoided it.
Just as a reminder, a weak kraken has Intelligence modifier +5, Wisdom modifier +5, Arcana +25, Athletics +30, Nature +30, Occultism +25, Perception +28, Religion +25. This is no unintelligent sea beast. Also as a reminder, this battle was taking place on the left side of the sea cave.
The weak kraken won initiative, because Perception +28 is serious business. The rogues were assumed to be using Nimble Dodge whenever possible against the kraken's attacks, and this was factored in.
Round #1:
• Weak Kraken: Swim to get into a good position. Double Attack with arms, attacking Intelligence rogue through cover and Charisma rogue through screening. Critical hit on Intelligence rogue, regular hit on Charisma rogue. Grab.
• Rogues: Enter Wolf Stance, fail two Acrobatics (Escape) checks each. Their Acrobatics was merely trained, at +19, and the kraken had Athletics DC 40. Thus, it should be no surprise that both rogues failed.
• Bard: Stride into position for a possession. Kraken regularly succeeds. Bard opts for critical success, to avoid going unconscious.
• Wizard: Stride into position for a baleful polymorph. Kraken critically succeeds.
Round #2:
• Weak Kraken: Double Attack with arms, clear shot on bard and wizard. Critical hit on both. Grab/sustain grabs. Double attack with tentacles on flat-footed bard and wizard. Miss bard, regular hit on wizard.
• Rogues: Fail three Acrobatics (Escape) attempts each.
• Bard: Possession. Kraken regularly succeeds. Bard opts for critical success, to avoid going unconscious. Shield, but it fizzles due to the DC 5 flat check for the grab.
• Wizard: Fail Acrobatics (Escape) attempt. Enervation. Hits touch AC. Kraken critically succeeds, avoiding all effects.
Round #3:
• Weak Kraken: Sustain grabs. Double Attack with arms, clear shot on flat-footed bard and wizard. Critical hit on bard, regular hit on wizard. Both are unconscious. Reposition Intelligence rogue, miss with beak attack. Intelligence rogue's Nimble Roll is irrelevant due to being grabbed, sadly.
• Rogues: Fail three Acrobatics (Escape) attempts each.
Round #4:
• Bard: Hero Point. Possession. Kraken regularly succeeds. Bard opts for critical success, to avoid going unconscious. Fail Acrobatics (Escape) attempt.
• Wizard: Hero Point. Interact to pick up wand. Fireball, 3rd-level. Kraken succeeds and takes a piddly 4d6 damage.
• Weak Kraken: Sustain grabs. Bard and wizard drop unconscious. Double Attack with arms, clean shot on flat-footed Intelligence rogue, attacking flat-footed Charisma rogue through cover. Critical hit on both. Intelligence rogue drops unconscious.
• Charisma Rogue: Fail three Acrobatics (Escape) attempts.
Round #5:
• Intelligence Rogue: Regularly fail flat check. Dying 3.
• Bard: Hero Point. Pick up wand. Enervation. Misses against TAC.
• Wizard: Hero Point. Pick up wand. Ray of frost, ignorant of the kraken's cold resistance. Hits TAC, but damage roll is low enough that the kraken takes no damage.
• Weak Kraken: Sustain grabs. Use automatic 10 damage power. Intelligence rogue dies, at dying 4. Bard and wizard drop unconscious again. Reposition Charisma rogue, regular hit on flat-footed Charisma rogue. Charisma rogue drops to dying 1.
Round #6:
• Charisma Rogue: Hero Point. Fail three Acrobatics (Escape) attempts.
• Bard: Regularly fail flat check. Dying 2.
• Wizard: Regularly fail flat check. Dying 2.
• Weak Kraken: Sustain grabs. Use automatic 10 damage power, twice. Bard and wizard die. Charisma rogue drops to dying 2.
Round #7:
• Charisma Rogue: Critically fail flat check. Dying 4. Dead.
• Weak Kraken: They did not even need to do anything this round.
I do not think it would have been fairer to have the weak kraken target the rogues first.
The four character sheets have been linked above. They are the same character sheets that were used for the game, and the two casters were built and used by other players. The characters were not built for combat, hence the general lack of combat-useful spells. The rogues did not even have a ranged option, hence their overall inability to actually do anything while grabbed. The only spells that had been expended by that point were:
• Bard: Casting of see invisibility, three castings of fly.
• Wizard: Casting of fly (4th-level), casting of passwall (7th-level).
Does anyone have any better idea for what each PC should have been doing? What could the rogues, for example, have done if not try to escape?
I never really internalized it at the time, but the roleplaying-oriented segment of Red Flags was terribly underwhelming and fell flat. The information-gathering was mostly useless, talking to Kadhibat was also superfluous, there was no need at all to talk to Kasbeel, and the party already stumbled onto the most viable solution possible simply by snitching to Whark. Almost all of the background lore of the NPCs was useless.
It was all over very quickly.
I was working through how to set up this encounter and figured I'd see how you went about it.
If you selected the diadem as one of the free items, and a player happened to be detecting magic as their exploration tactic, then I could see them at least knowing about the dispel enchantment route.
Wall of stone could give you a bridge and a covered area near the entrance of the room with a single casting. Shape stone gives you a 10 foot cube of stone to shape, which is more than enough to destroy the pillar of stone the vault sits atop and tip it toward the players and possibly seal the passage behind it depending on what they shaped with the stone. Unfortunately, the characters are asked to make infiltrators and that probably persuaded them not to take up excavation as a spell focus.
Perhaps casting wall of force in a flat plane beneath the door and dimension dooring atop that would have given them enough time and protections from the kraken to get things going.
Much of the players difficulty comes from spell selection. They seem to have been built with the idea that spells could realistically succeed if they allow saves. With saving throws being what they are, you either want saveless spells like power word blind, spells that target your environment like shape stone and wall spells, or spells that target your allies like freedom of movement.
They really should have let Necerion try to deal with the Kraken.
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