They should just change Rogue's Sneak Attack ability's name to Precision Attack.


Classes


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Because you still can not sneak and then attack an enemy. Apparently all enemies have eyes in the back of their heads.

"You automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or
aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement,
or as soon as you do anything other than Hide or Sneak. The
GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive
action, activity, free action, or reaction without being noticed,
possibly requiring another Stealth check. If you speak or make
a deliberate loud noise, you become sensed. If you do anything
else, you become seen just before you act. For instance, if you
attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted
against that attack."

Kind of takes the fun out of sneaking up on enemies if I can't "Sneak Attack".

Anyone else bothered by this?

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

On this topic, I find it incredibly frustrating that Sneak Attacks are relegated to specific weapon types a la 4e. It eliminates a lot of interesting and fun rogue builds, most notably archers and sword-wielding rogues.


>Still

I mean you could sneak and then attack in PF1. You only lost stealth at the end of your turn or after you attacked.

Or do you mean 'still' in reference to a previous version of the playtest?


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While the Rogue cannot do it the Rangers cat can. At the top of page 286 it list the cat's Advanced Maneuver: Cat Pounce: "CAT POUNCE You Stride and then Strike. If you were unseen, you remain unseen until after the attack." It is a single action ability.

Why did the Rogue not get this ability? The Ranger's cat gets it when the Ranger is level 12.


DeltaPangaea wrote:

>Still

I mean you could sneak and then attack in PF1. You only lost stealth at the end of your turn or after you attacked.

Or do you mean 'still' in reference to a previous version of the playtest?

Not sure why I wrote still in there. Sometimes my fingers disobey my brain... =P


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CoeusFreeze wrote:
On this topic, I find it incredibly frustrating that Sneak Attacks are relegated to specific weapon types a la 4e. It eliminates a lot of interesting and fun rogue builds, most notably archers and sword-wielding rogues.

Archers are still fine. Sneak attack says it works with all ranged weapons, except for certain thrown weapons.

EDIT: Also throwing in agreement that game balance aside, not being able to do a Sneak Attack by sneaking and then attacking just *feels* wrong. It's incredibly unsatisfying for the rogue player.

And I imagine it will result in all rogues being goblins, just to get that ability back.


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MaxAstro wrote:
CoeusFreeze wrote:
On this topic, I find it incredibly frustrating that Sneak Attacks are relegated to specific weapon types a la 4e. It eliminates a lot of interesting and fun rogue builds, most notably archers and sword-wielding rogues.

Archers are still fine. Sneak attack says it works with all ranged weapons, except for certain thrown weapons.

EDIT: Also throwing in agreement that game balance aside, not being able to do a Sneak Attack by sneaking and then attacking just *feels* wrong. It's incredibly unsatisfying for the rogue player.

And I imagine it will result in all rogues being goblins, just to get that ability back.

Yeah, and with the major nerf to how many Sneak Attack die you get now, I'm thinking they don't want Rogues as a damage dealer anymore and mainly just a skill monkey.

I am Jack's disappointment...

I just don't know what to think about my favorite class anymore, but I still have quite a bit of reading into feats to do, so maybe there's still some hope.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
FunkenGruven wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
CoeusFreeze wrote:
On this topic, I find it incredibly frustrating that Sneak Attacks are relegated to specific weapon types a la 4e. It eliminates a lot of interesting and fun rogue builds, most notably archers and sword-wielding rogues.

Archers are still fine. Sneak attack says it works with all ranged weapons, except for certain thrown weapons.

EDIT: Also throwing in agreement that game balance aside, not being able to do a Sneak Attack by sneaking and then attacking just *feels* wrong. It's incredibly unsatisfying for the rogue player.

And I imagine it will result in all rogues being goblins, just to get that ability back.

Yeah, and with the major nerf to how many Sneak Attack die you get now, I'm thinking they don't want Rogues as a damage dealer anymore and mainly just a skill monkey.

I am Jack's disappointment...

I just don't know what to think about my favorite class anymore, but I still have quite a bit of reading into feats to do, so maybe there's still some hope.

You have to look at the sneak attack damage nerf in context - all damage got nerfed. Sneak attack damage is still huge - a sneak attacking rogue is still going to out damage almost everything else.

Their damage is low compared to a PF1e rogue, but high compared to a PF2e character.

I also have to say that out of every class I've read, rogue is my favorite class feat-wise. I mean, they get a feat to walk through walls. And it *isn't* a 20th level feat. That's awesome. :D


CoeusFreeze wrote:
On this topic, I find it incredibly frustrating that Sneak Attacks are relegated to specific weapon types a la 4e. It eliminates a lot of interesting and fun rogue builds, most notably archers and sword-wielding rogues.

And also in the wildly popular 5e. So it is not just a 4e thing. A rogue can, however, sneak attack with ranged weapons in 5e.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Aldarc wrote:
CoeusFreeze wrote:
On this topic, I find it incredibly frustrating that Sneak Attacks are relegated to specific weapon types a la 4e. It eliminates a lot of interesting and fun rogue builds, most notably archers and sword-wielding rogues.
And also in the wildly popular 5e. So it is not just a 4e thing. A rogue can, however, sneak attack with ranged weapons in 5e.

As I mentioned above, they can in PF2e also.


Okay, long post, and I apologize if I'm working off of faulty information (as in, I missed a skill/feat/condition description somewhere). This is simply based off the rules I have found and read thus far, and if I missed something, please direct me to the page number so I can correct it.

My biggest issue is that unless I'm missing something, there's essentially no way to be an archery rogue until 7th level. The only way you can cause an enemy to become flat-footed (barring blinding spells and the like) is to use the Deception skill to create a distraction, and only if you have the level 7 skill feat that keeps you unseen until after you attack (Cruel Deception, I think it's called) and there is no such feat option for Stealth. At all. So to be a sniper you need to wait until 7th level and also be good at lying, not sneaking. Wut.

Otherwise, there's no good way to make someone flat-footed against your ranged attacks. So until you take that feat at 7th, you can't deal sneak attack at range as the rules are written - again, barring extreme circumstances like blind opponents. That just seems utterly absurd to me. I mean, even your melee options are still limited (though admittedly, significantly less so). Until 6th level, when you can take the Gang Up feat, you can't deal Sneak Attack from flanking either.

While I agree the rogue's *potential* damage is likely above average (and apparently they can out-punch low level monks for non-lethal; again, what??) their actual opportunities to deal sneak attack are obscenely low. Is this to make up for their ability to make the rest of their party's skills more or less useless? The number of skills rogues can master is a little absurd. What are the rest of their allies supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs while Merisiel does all the skill checks? (Okay, I will grant you that someone else should still make the Lore checks; Merisiel was not burdened with an overabundance of schooling, as Mal would say.)

I just feel like their design choices with the rogue are problematic. I get the issue of damage balance; I really do. But they make rogues feel distinctly un-roguelike by going the route they went. I would prefer they got a few less mastered skills and can do the things in combat that rogues are supposed to be able to do.

As an alternative, I think limiting their starting skills to 7 or 8 plus Int mod is a good starting point, and possibly capping the number of mastered/legendary skills they can get. Then give them access to a feat that lets them snipe. It doesn't have to be an easy check; give the opponent the +4 bonus to their Perception check that they would normally get, or impose a penalty after a successful sniping sneak attack (a la the -20 penalty in 1e). But for crying out loud, at least give rogues a *chance* to put the "sneak" into "sneak attack."


Apoc Golem wrote:

Okay, long post, and I apologize if I'm working off of faulty information (as in, I missed a skill/feat/condition description somewhere). This is simply based off the rules I have found and read thus far, and if I missed something, please direct me to the page number so I can correct it.

My biggest issue is that unless I'm missing something, there's essentially no way to be an archery rogue until 7th level. The only way you can cause an enemy to become flat-footed (barring blinding spells and the like) is to use the Deception skill to create a distraction, and only if you have the level 7 skill feat that keeps you unseen until after you attack (Cruel Deception, I think it's called) and there is no such feat option for Stealth. At all. So to be a sniper you need to wait until 7th level and also be good at lying, not sneaking. Wut.

Otherwise, there's no good way to make someone flat-footed against your ranged attacks. So until you take that feat at 7th, you can't deal sneak attack at range as the rules are written - again, barring extreme circumstances like blind opponents. That just seems utterly absurd to me. I mean, even your melee options are still limited (though admittedly, significantly less so). Until 6th level, when you can take the Gang Up feat, you can't deal Sneak Attack from flanking either.

While I agree the rogue's *potential* damage is likely above average (and apparently they can out-punch low level monks for non-lethal; again, what??) their actual opportunities to deal sneak attack are obscenely low. Is this to make up for their ability to make the rest of their party's skills more or less useless? The number of skills rogues can master is a little absurd. What are the rest of their allies supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs while Merisiel does all the skill checks? (Okay, I will grant you that someone else should still make the Lore checks; Merisiel was not burdened with an overabundance of schooling, as Mal would say.)

I just feel like their design choices with the rogue are...

As a ranged Rogue, you have several options when it comes to sneak attacking an enemy.

  • You can create a diversion with Cruel Deceiver, as you've mentioned.
  • You can hide behind cover and become Sensed against creatures whose Perception DC your secret Stealth check beats. Those creatures are flat-footed against your attack.
  • With the new Stealth rules in the errata released on Monday, you can Sneak into cover or concealment, and you become unseen or remain Unseen as long as you end your Sneak action in cover or concealment. Creatures whose Perception DC your Stealth check beats are flat-footed against your attacks.
  • Your Fighter buddy Trips a creature or uses Combat Grab on them, or any of their numerous maneuvers that render them flat-footed. While they're preoccupied, you pepper them with arrows.

By yourself, you have 3 options to attack flat-footed creatures from range. With your allies' help, your options greatly expand, but you need teamwork to succeed. Good thing teamwork is the whole point of this collaborative storytelling experience we call a roleplaying game, no?

I hope this addresses your concerns about Rogues and Sneak Attack.


Ah, I had not seen the errata. While PF is absolutely a teamwork-based game, a class also needs to be able to stand on its own legs, so to speak. Otherwise you have codependent classes, which just doesn't work out in the long run. For example, what if your front-liner uses neither trips nor grabs, and is just a straight-up sword-and-board fighter or paladin?

Before the errata, there was no way to use Stealth to Sneak Attack, because it specifically stated the opponent lost the flat-footed condition *before* your attack. I am glad they saw the error of this. I'm sure they intended it for game balance, but it was counter-intuitive.

This does actually clear up my most primary concern for rogues, and opens up a wide variety of playstyles. I would like to see some future options (maybe in supplemental rulebooks later on?) that open up different weapons for rogue playstyles, as was mentioned above. I have an elf rogue in my homebrew campaign that uses a curve blade and he's ridiculously fun to watch.

EDIT: Also, I just realized my concern with the overabundance of skill training is also unfounded. I was unaware you could only gain master and legendary in signature skills. The rogue does have a significantly longer list of signature skills than most, but that's in line with 1e rogues' astounding number of class skills. So the rogue has the capacity to master more skills than most, but will not necessarily vastly outstrip anyone else, as I previously thought.


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I hope this idea is worth something to more than one person, but I want the rogue's niche to be expanded upon, and include the swashbuckler's thing.

Sneak Attack is actually designed really well this edition, because Feint is a single action and guarantees FF on at least a single attack if you succeed. Naturally, this is a decent and opportunistic choice for the rogue, and one that doesn't cost them feats anymore to do. This is fantastic. Given how crits work, our rogue actually was the shining example of how combat is done in this edition, with the greater focus on adding additional dice this makes sneak attack a much more viable combat choice. And it doubles on a crit, meaning you'll see the damage that you saw before, maybe even more so than on other builds. It's basically Power Attack for free with no feat or action cost associated.

Now, take this concept, and ask what would a Duelist Prestige class be doing here? How would they increase their damage? What kinds of features would they have? Imo rogues should be full martial builds now and include the utility and combat toys of the swashbuckler and duelist into the class to expand their choices and make them feel complementary to other class builds that do focus on combat. Open the class up to do more than niche rogue builds, and allow the class to fulfill a large number of concepts. Also then you don't need to do a Duelist class.


Back in the day we used to call it backstabbing! :D

@master_marshmallow: That sounds like a great idea and I think it fits in great with the broader sense of what a rogue is/can be.


I sign off on the title of this thread.

This PF2e was a great opportunity to clean up and clarify the language of PF1, and all we got in that department was Ancestry.


A lot of the naming seems way off to me, not just the broad terms, but the individual feature/feat names sometimes make you scratch your head.

For example: The Alchemist
Quick Alchemy -Lets you make up an item on the fly.
Double Elixir -Lets make any two items up on the fly.
Alchemical Alacrity -Lets you make three.

One of these doesn't quite fit, and if you're just skimming you might wrongly think the alchemist has different actions for making different kinds of items.

Also, Double Slice...
Nice name if you're using swords, not so much if you have maces.


I'm glad to see the rogue's SA get some updates in this edition. I may be one of the few who is glad that the total damage dice went down--because overall, it meant that their accuracy could go UP. Previously, it was iffy if the rogue could get SA, and then they were swinging at a penalty. That was two "hits" to being able to use a core class ability.

I'd rather they had more accuracy and, when invested, some interesting rider effects (like a crippling strike, and so on) that spoke to the theme of the class, rather than higher damage and lower accuracy--and therefore lower player agency.

I'm an odd one, though.

Also on board with the update to Precision, if only because SA conjures a specific image of its use. I'd love a version of SA specifically tied to stealth some day.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
FunkenGruven wrote:

Because you still can not sneak and then attack an enemy. Apparently all enemies have eyes in the back of their heads.

"You automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or
aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement,
or as soon as you do anything other than Hide or Sneak. The
GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive
action, activity, free action, or reaction without being noticed,
possibly requiring another Stealth check. If you speak or make
a deliberate loud noise, you become sensed. If you do anything
else, you become seen just before you act. For instance, if you
attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted
against that attack."

Kind of takes the fun out of sneaking up on enemies if I can't "Sneak Attack".

Anyone else bothered by this?

This is actually something that was carried over from nearly all d20 games. There is no facing, so in most cases you cannot positively say that a foe has his back turned to you.

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