Druid wild shape with handwraps of mighty fists


Classes


7th level elemental form doubles your damage dice. For earth elemental this brings 2d10 up to 4d10 damage dice. I feel as though I'm reading something wrong. With the +5 Handwraps that'd be 24d10 per attack. Elemental Form and other form spells state constant bonuses stay active and the handwraps imply they work with natural attacks.


Makes sense but that is a pretty heafty hit, but that is a very high level combo.


Kodyboy wrote:
Makes sense but that is a pretty heafty hit, but that is a very high level combo.

True but at 13th level itd be 16d6 with +3 handwraps. Also 5th level animal form bear can do 4d8 damage which you get at 9th level. +1 handwraps would have you doing 8d8 damage.


Dragorine wrote:
Kodyboy wrote:
Makes sense but that is a pretty heafty hit, but that is a very high level combo.
True but at 13th level itd be 16d6 with +3 handwraps. Also 5th level animal form bear can do 4d8 damage which you get at 9th level. +1 handwraps would have you doing 8d8 damage.

While not what I was thinking druids need help so it is something.


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Dragorine wrote:
7th level elemental form doubles your damage dice. For earth elemental this brings 2d10 up to 4d10 damage dice. I feel as though I'm reading something wrong. With the +5 Handwraps that'd be 24d10 per attack. Elemental Form and other form spells state constant bonuses stay active and the handwraps imply they work with natural attacks.

You're reading something wrong. It could be clearer, but weapon potency and handwraps both give additional damage dice (based on +). There isn't any reason to think you'd add the handwraps first, then double, as they aren't part of the form's statistics.

With +5 handwraps, it would be 2d10 doubled to 4d10 then add 5d10 from the +5 handwraps, for a total of 9d10.


+magic weapons add dices, not multiply the base (despite the bad wording on some places suggesting as such)


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I think you can't use items bonus with the forms,
"These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties,
circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses."
The only way to use potency item (because the bonus is an item bonus, not conditional o circumstance) is use druids vestiments, that substitute your bonus to the form bonus (ex. If you have a +5 sword, you use that damage for the attacks, instead of the form damage).


Guez wrote:

I think you can't use items bonus with the forms,

"These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties,
circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses."
The only way to use potency item (because the bonus is an item bonus, not conditional o circumstance) is use druids vestiments, that substitute your bonus to the form bonus (ex. If you have a +5 sword, you use that damage for the attacks, instead of the form damage).

I'm afraid i'll have to agree with you on that item bonus...i knew you wouldn't get the attack bonus but for some reason my brain didn't think it applied to the damage getting increased from handwraps or magic fang...which makes little sense to me or else why give druids magic fang at all.

Druid vestments only use your attack bonus, skill bonus and AC. It doesn't seem to say damage. I'd also like to point out that if you used your own stats for everything wild shape would give you reach and a few traits but little combat bonuses otherwise and would seem really weak. Druids should be able to use the higher damage dice for their forms at least.


If you can use the magic weapons in your wildshaped form then wildshaping is completely useless.


Guez wrote:

I think you can't use items bonus with the forms,

"These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties,
circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses."
The only way to use potency item (because the bonus is an item bonus, not conditional o circumstance) is use druids vestiments, that substitute your bonus to the form bonus (ex. If you have a +5 sword, you use that damage for the attacks, instead of the form damage).

Page reference for quote please?


Voss wrote:
Guez wrote:

I think you can't use items bonus with the forms,

"These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties,
circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses."
The only way to use potency item (because the bonus is an item bonus, not conditional o circumstance) is use druids vestiments, that substitute your bonus to the form bonus (ex. If you have a +5 sword, you use that damage for the attacks, instead of the form damage).
Page reference for quote please?

Its written on any form spell. Page 220 for elemental form 218 dragon form and 205 animal form to name 3.

Grand Lodge

Dragorine wrote:


I'm afraid i'll have to agree with you on that item bonus...i knew you wouldn't get the attack bonus but for some reason my brain didn't think it applied to the damage getting increased from handwraps or magic fang...which makes little sense to me or else why give druids magic fang at all.

I assume to use on their companion, but then companions also can't benefit from item bonuses other than barding. That may need to be clarified.

Silver Crusade

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From what it says under Potency Runes, the attack bonus is an item bonus, but the extra damage dice aren't called out as being typed, or even a bonus at all. Without the item bonus to hit, would +1 hand wraps of mighty fists still make Wild Shape natural attacks count as magic, for the purpose of resistance or similar?

If it is, indeed, possible to get the extra damage dice from handwraps of mighty fists, would it increase all dice, in the case of forms that have multiple dice (such as a bear's 2d8 or a beetle's 2d10), or just one of the component dice?

Without the ability to apply magical enhancements, it seems Wild Shape just keeps falling further and further behind other melee classes.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

I do not think handwraps would have any direct effect on damage dice on forms because the forms set the damage. However, I do believe property runes would apply. So if you happen to have +3 handwraps with ghost touch on them, neither the +3 or extra damage dice apply but you would get ghost touch and reasonably magic on your attacks, though the rules do not outright say this.

If you look at the form spells the section on these bonuses occurs before the damage dice are listed, and applies to the preceding section.

So breaking down the animal form spell:
First it says constant bonuses still apply. You cannot activate any abilities. Pretty much the same as PF 1.

Second it lists AC/TAC, Attack and damage bonus, athletics and senses.
Then it explains on certain certain types of bonuses or penalties apply.

Third it lists the forms with the damage dice, speed and attacks of that form.

I gather from this that anything that does not modify the set of stats in the first section, AC/TAC through Athletics cannot benefit from item bonuses. However, other continuous effects do apply. So getting magic or ghost touch should work but does something like corrosive or holy? Those add damage dice but aren't bonuses to any of the above attributes. I think they should apply.

Now I don't believe the extra damage dice from the item apply because the forms list specifically the damage you do and it conforms roughly to what other melee are doing at that level. In fact at some levels it is the same or bigger. For example at level 13 if you go dinosaur form and grab Stegosaurus you are doing 4d8 + 18 damage or an average of 36. A Barbarian at that level with available gear and a greatsword is doing 4d12+10 or 36 on average. A fighter would only be doing 4d12+5 or 31. Now both classes have feats and other abilities (Power Attack, Double Slice etc) but that should give you an idea of how they scaled the abilities.


The handwraps certainly add to hit and damage to attacks, buy I am not sure about increased damage dice.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

Not while wild shaped. The spells are pretty clear about adding to those statistics.


I would also note that Druid's Vestments do not solve this problem, because they allow you to retain your attack bonus, but do NOT allow you to retain your own damage dice/weapon dice.

Liberty's Edge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

It seems like since the polymorph spells say "your constant abilities of your gear still function" and "these special statistics (AC, attack bonus, damage bonus)" then the damage from the Handwraps should still apply (because they affect the number of damage dice, a constant ability not mentioned in those special statistics).

However, all this feels clunky, and based on our confusion, hard to understand.

It would be cleaner for polymorph spells to read more like this:

...Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities AND YOUR EXTRA DAMAGE DICE from your gear continue to function, but you can't activate it. When you transform you gain the following statistics IF THEY ARE HIGHER THAN YOUR OWN. IF YOUR OWN STATISTICS ARE HIGHER, YOU INSTEAD GAIN A +1 CONDITIONAL BONUS TO THAT STATISTIC):
AC = 10 + level + 7 (max 27)
TAC = 10 + level + 4 (max 24)
One or more unarmed melee attacks, which are the only types of attacks you can use. You're trained with them (UNLESS YOUR PROFICIENCY RANK IS HIGHER).
Attack modifier = level + 5 (max +16)
Damage bonus = 5 (Strength based)
low-light vision
2 temporary Hit Points per level while you have the form (max 20).
Athletics bonus = level + 6

The rest would be the same, but omit any further details on AC, attack bonuses, etc. since the formula above covers scaling. This reduces complexity and hopefully word count.

This also solves the problem where polymorph spells at even character levels make you WEAKER because when you level up, all the enemies levels up too, but your spell is still the previous spell level (for example, a level 6 character still casts these as level 3 spells).


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Archimedes Mavranos wrote:

It seems like since the polymorph spells say "your constant abilities of your gear still function" and "these special statistics (AC, attack bonus, damage bonus)" then the damage from the Handwraps should still apply (because they affect the number of damage dice, a constant ability not mentioned in those special statistics).

I think you are correct about property runes, because page 371 states:

Quote:
"While most properties are constant abilities, some have special abilities that must be activated. These follow the rules for activating magic items on page 376." Attacking with a Ghost Touch weapon is not an Activate Item action so it would be a constant ability.

The part about extra damage dice is unclear, mostly because it is called out in the weapon potency rune stat block as two distinct combat benefits. And only refers to the attack roll bonus as an item bonus, but does not make that same distinction about the increased damage dice.

But the shape change spells say you gain

Quote:
"One or more unarmed melee attacks, which are the only types of attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +10 and your damage bonus is +5. These are Strength based (for the purpose of enfeebled, for example)."

Then it states

Quote:
"These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties, circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses."

But as far as I can tell, extra damage dice is not actually a bonus or penalty. While you might roll different dice based on attack type or weapon, a bonus or penalty is always just a single fixed number.

Glossary:

Quote:
"Bonus: Bonuses are positive numbers that are added to a score or a roll, they come in three types: item, conditional, and circumstance. If you gain multiple bonuses of a given type, you apply on only the highest bonus, and ignore the others. See page 291 for more. See "modifier" and "penalty" for the other numbers that affect your rolls"
Quote:
"Modifier: Modifiers can be either negative or positive and adjust a roll. Most d20 rolls add an ability modifier based on your level of training. See page 290 for more, and see "bonus" and "penalty" for the other numbers that affect your rolls"
Quote:
"Penalty: Penalties are negative values that reduce a roll or a score. They come in three types: Conditional, circumstance, and (rarely) item. If you have multiple penalties of a given type, you apply only the worst penalty and ignore the others. Some penalties that you gain due to inherent drawbacks in your choices, such as the multiple attack penalty, are untyped, in which case they are cumulative and all apply. See page 291 for more, and see "modifier" and "bonus" for the other numbers that affect your rolls.

Those pages (290-291) all discuss checks which are dice rolls + modifiers. I would read that to indicate that additional damage dice from magic weapons are not considered "modifiers" and not prohibited by the clause in the various polymorph spells that limit adjustments to penalties, conditional and circumstance bonuses.

Currently, I'm of the opinion that you would get the constant abilities from handwraps that add additional damage dice and property runes to your unarmed attacks. These are invested items that do not just make your hands into magic weapons, but rather grant a constant ability that all your unarmed attacks work like magic weapons.

I think the specific rules for Handwraps of Mighty Fists are more specific than the shape spells, but also not disallowed by those spells either. In part because of the section on constant abilities on page 376.

Quote:
"Constant Abilities: Some magic items have abilities that always function, even without the expenditure of Resonance Points. An everburning torch always sheds light, and a flaming weapon causes fire damage every time it deals damage. Such an item has neither an activation entry nor the invested trait."

Page 377 has

Quote:

"Investing Magic Items: Most magic items that are worn, as well as some held items, must be invested with Resonance Points during the Invest Item activity in order to gain their benefits. These items have the invested train. Investing an item costs 1 Resonance Point, which you spend when you complete the Invest Item activity.

Many invested items have constant abilities that function all the time or that always trigger when you use the item. These fail to function if the item is not invested by you."

So it seems clear that even though the handwraps are invested, they still provide constant abilities. And while shapeshifted you get those constant abilities, but you are not allowed to apply the item bonus to attack rolls. The extra dice and most property runes provided by the handwraps will still be allowed because they are constant abilities and thus not prevented by the spells themselves.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Zamfield wrote:
Archimedes Mavranos wrote:

It seems like since the polymorph spells say "your constant abilities of your gear still function" and "these special statistics (AC, attack bonus, damage bonus)" then the damage from the Handwraps should still apply (because they affect the number of damage dice, a constant ability not mentioned in those special statistics).

I think you are correct about property runes, because page 371 states:

Quote:
"While most properties are constant abilities, some have special abilities that must be activated. These follow the rules for activating magic items on page 376." Attacking with a Ghost Touch weapon is not an Activate Item action so it would be a constant ability.

The part about extra damage dice is unclear, mostly because it is called out in the weapon potency rune stat block as two distinct combat benefits. And only refers to the attack roll bonus as an item bonus, but does not make that same distinction about the increased damage dice.

But the shape change spells say you gain

Quote:
"One or more unarmed melee attacks, which are the only types of attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +10 and your damage bonus is +5. These are Strength based (for the purpose of enfeebled, for example)."

Then it states

Quote:
"These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties, circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses."

But as far as I can tell, extra damage dice is not actually a bonus or penalty. While you might roll different dice based on attack type or weapon, a bonus or penalty is always just a single fixed number.

Glossary:

Quote:
"Bonus: Bonuses are positive numbers that are added to a score or a roll, they come in three types: item, conditional, and circumstance. If you gain multiple bonuses of a given type, you apply on only the highest bonus, and ignore the others. See page 291 for more. See "modifier" and "penalty" for the other numbers that affect your rolls"
...

Well said. I feel like this could be more friendly for new players however. =)


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Zamfield wrote:

Then it states

Quote:
"These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties, circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses."

But as far as I can tell, extra damage dice is not actually a bonus or penalty. While you might roll different dice based on attack type or weapon, a bonus or penalty is always just a single fixed number.

It doesn't label the abilities as bonuses or penalties, it says that these *statistics* can only be modified by bonuses and penalties...

I think you're reading this wrong here. You're right, they're not bonuses or penalties, they are statistics, and the only thing that's allowed to modify them (additional damage dice would modify them) would be circumstance bonuses, penalties, and conditional bonuses.

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