| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a thread for general thoughts on the alchemist. If you want to get hyper specific on the intricacies of specific feats or class features a more specific thread may be better.
Alchemists only get simple weapons which is a good conversion from PF1e. I love alchemical items not being spell's and instead being its own thing. I love that I can choose between bombs or poisons and that poisons can be applied to blades. I don't like Empower Bombs and wish it was an alchemist feat or skill feat instead. I also wish there were minor elixirs that could be taken (I'd wait for 3rd level for them).
I haven't looked at specific feats yet. I'm just getting an overall look at the rules for now. But the alchemist gets a big tick of approval from me right now despite the bombs and delayed mutagen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I fear that Alchemists will rely too much on alchemical items. I liked how they were recreating spell effects inf PF1.
I also don't like that your 3rd level class freature somewhat forces you to use bombs. The only alchemist I played was an Infusion one, and I was not found of the bombs.
Changing their Resonance ability to be Int is a good thing.
I also like that they can craft alchemical items for the day without having to spend money (five sessions and I could still not use the batch of antidotes I crafted >_>).
We just helped a player create an alchemist tonight. I've never been a huge fan of the alchemist in the old edition. I thought the idea that you conjure bombs and potions and Mr. Hyde mutagens out of nothing for free felt unsatisfyingly video gamey. The fact that for the most part you have to actually make your bombs and potions ahead of time is a big improvement.
The selection of first level formulas is disappointing though. I like that you get classics like alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags and thunderstones. I wish you got a formula for a true grenade. I also feel like beyond potions that make you see better or run or jump better that it'd be nice to see something with a little bit of 'mutagen-lite'--like a woad that gives a temporary boost to combat ability in the short term with some kind of unpleasant side effect.
The fact you only get to make two a day of something that's so much of a focus of what the character is feels like too few. I'd be willing to see the alchemist character have to pay a reduced cost and get a full batch of four--in fact I'd be happier with it, the idea of them being totally free feels a little fake. You should have to pay something at least for reagents, bags, bottles, other supplies. Something.
The fact you only get to make two a day of something that's so much of a focus of what the character is feels like too few. I'd be willing to see the alchemist character have to pay a reduced cost and get a full batch of four--in fact I'd be happier with it, the idea of them being totally free feels a little fake. You should have to pay something at least for reagents, bags, bottles, other supplies. Something.
The thing is, those items only last one day. You don't pay to be able to Holy Smite or Attack of Opportunity. Why would you pay for a X/day class power ? (because Advanced Alchemy is essencialy that, a X/day class power)
I love the overall idea but the alchemical item list is terribly lack luster. Mutagens were particular, though not the sole disappointment.
I would much prefer for a set of rules allowing for procedural generation of alchemical items, based on item level and cost.
The fact you only get to make two a day of something that's so much of a focus of what the character is feels like too few. I'd be willing to see the alchemist character have to pay a reduced cost and get a full batch of four--in fact I'd be happier with it, the idea of them being totally free feels a little fake. You should have to pay something at least for reagents, bags, bottles, other supplies. Something.The thing is, those items only last one day. You don't pay to be able to Holy Smite or Attack of Opportunity. Why would you pay for a X/day class power ? (because Advanced Alchemy is essencialy that, a X/day class power)
Because a holy smite comes from a god channeling their power through you and an attack of opportunity is an opening you see where you can close with an enemy and mess them up in a way that hurts. Those things are free.
The bottles of alchemist's fire you make require you to start with actual reagents to cook up--and you have to buy those. Then you have to put the completed product into actual bottles--and you have to buy those.
Does that make sense? One thing is freely using an ability you know how to do, the other is making an actual physical thing that you need raw materials to make. It would be like having a character who's a blacksmith and could just pull steel out of nowhere and hammer out armor and swords for himself for free, but which he mysteriously can't take off or sell or lend to a party member or they immediately rust and disintegrate. It's a mental bridge too far.
Is it a little weird to me that your quick alchemy potions wear out in a day? Yeah, a little. I'd prefer they were just regular bottles of alchemist fire or tanglefoot bags that you made quickly because of superior training and working in small batches. But I can sort of see it working. I can imagine a chemical reaction that if you don't stabilize it could go flat in a day. Maybe it's ommiting that last step that makes the alchemist able to create his things cheaper and faster. That works well enough for me to buy into it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because a holy smite comes from a god channelingI'd be willing to see the alchemist character have to pay a reduced cost and get a full batch of four--in fact I'd be happier with it, the idea of them being totally free feels a little fake. You should have to pay something at least for reagents, bags, bottles, other supplies. Something.The thing is, those items only last one day. You don't pay to be able to Holy Smite or Attack of Opportunity. Why would you pay for a X/day class power ?
An alchemist has to pay about as much for his supplies as a wizard does with their minimal cost material components. Do you actually make the wizard buy bat guano? If you do, then by all means make the alchemist pay a similar amount for his "free" alchemical crafts. But if you do handwaive inexpensive material components for wizards (as do 99.999999999999999% of GMs once a component pouch is purchased), you should be willing to do the same for alchemists.
Their ability to enhance bombs should be an option between; Bombs - just leave as is, even though it's weaker than cantrips. Poisons - which also need to be simplified since they're currently annoying AF to deal with. Mutagens - "my first mutagen" in place of being forced to use bombs offensively. Potions - just focusing on alchemy itself.
I like that Paizo is removing redundant, almost never used abilities, but turning them into useless feats means there are clearly better options at each level, which is also annoying. I want ALL of my choices to feel good and be relevant. Don't trap me with garbage options or pad things to fill out space. If one feat is blatantly more useful than another than something has to be changed. Immediately. I'm saying that three days in we already need some errata and clarifications. At least let us know they're aware of our concerns.
Almost every race, background, and class has issues, already. It's getting harder and harder to even want to run this playtest if we're expected to run it with something that looks broken before dice are even rolled.
Remember you can't actually craft Mutagens, except MAYBE through the normal Crafting Method, though there is some question of that because when you are given the Alchemical Crafting feat it does mention being able to craft Common Alchemical items. But at no point can Quick Alchemy or Advanced Alchemy let you craft anything other than Common Alchemical items.
Also the level 5 Craft Mutagens ability does nothing. You can already add uncommon formula to your formula book, and the ability does not actually let you craft Mutagens.
Also remember the bombs are comparable to Cantrips, maybe even a little weaker unless you put in a lot of feats.
And it has recently been pointed out that Quick Alchemy cannot work because it requires a Free Hand, but also requires an Alchemy Toolkit which requires Two Hands.
That may be true. But if it is they will have to clarify it.
An alchemist has to pay about as much for his supplies as a wizard does with their minimal cost material components. Do you actually make the wizard buy bat guano? If you do, then by all means make the alchemist pay a similar amount for his "free" alchemical crafts. But if you do handwaive inexpensive material components for wizards (as do 99.999999999999999% of GMs once a component pouch is purchased), you should be willing to do the same for alchemists.Because a holy smite comes from a god channelingI'd be willing to see the alchemist character have to pay a reduced cost and get a full batch of four--in fact I'd be happier with it, the idea of them being totally free feels a little fake. You should have to pay something at least for reagents, bags, bottles, other supplies. Something.The thing is, those items only last one day. You don't pay to be able to Holy Smite or Attack of Opportunity. Why would you pay for a X/day class power ?
Much like buying food rations, a kind of upkeep I like to do for wizards is to pay a certain amount on 'components'. I'm not running a game of Oregon Trail so I don't track it down to how much bat guano is in their second pouch to the left any more than I make sure rations include enough citrus to avoid scurvy--but broadly yeah I like the idea that components are things and they must be periodically replenished. It makes things feel more real.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Much like buying food rations, a kind of upkeep I like to do for wizards is to pay a certain amount on 'components'. I'm not running a game of Oregon Trail so I don't track it down to how much bat guano is in their second pouch to the left any more than I make sure rations include enough citrus to avoid scurvy--but broadly yeah I like the idea that components are things and they must be periodically replenished. It makes things feel more real.
In that case charging the Alchemist a comparable amount of upkeep is perfectly consistent with how you run your campaign (do you get clerics and paladins to tithe to their church as well?).
I just thought of something, but is there something I miss where Alchemists improve beyond just Trained in Alchemical Bombs? Spellcasters improve beyond Trained in their Spellcasting, which means they are more likely to hit with their spells and cantrips as they level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Much like buying food rations, a kind of upkeep I like to do for wizards is to pay a certain amount on 'components'. I'm not running a game of Oregon Trail so I don't track it down to how much bat guano is in their second pouch to the left any more than I make sure rations include enough citrus to avoid scurvy--but broadly yeah I like the idea that components are things and they must be periodically replenished. It makes things feel more real.In that case charging the Alchemist a comparable amount of upkeep is perfectly consistent with how you run your campaign (do you get clerics and paladins to tithe to their church as well?).
I hadn't thought about it, but I do like it. Honestly back in second edition D&D one of the most satisfying parts of the game for me was strolling into some local temple after having sold off all the loot and handing over as much of the gold as I could possibly do without to the priest there. I think the DM was used to characters grudgingly doing this, so he leaned into my enjoyment of it by having the priest be appropriately flabergasted at the huge donation, which was fun. I always imagined the churches in my guy's wake suddenly having the funds to start building up the communities around them. Good memories.
I always imagined the churches in my guy's wake suddenly having the funds to start building up the communities around them. Good memories.
I like that.
Ok here's my Alchemist question:
On page 45 of the playtest rulebook, it says Alchemists get "Advanced Alchemy," which reads in part:
(emphasis mine)
Then on page 46, it also says Alchemists get a "Formula Book," which says:
Originally, I assumed these two things overlapped, so I start with 4 formulas.... but now I'm focusing on the word "additional" on page 45.... meaning it would be 8. Does anyone know the right answer? 4 or 8 starting formulas for Alchemists? Thank you
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
8. pretty positive its 8.
also various other places on the forums also go with 8.
Thank you!
They should simply say "You start with eight formulas" in one spot. Time to go update my Alchemist :)
So the pre-gen alchemist had +4 to it’s bomb throws, with the only 18 stat being Intelligence. Being the primary stat of the class it would make sense if throwing bombs what using int state, but for the life of me I can’t find it in the rulebook. Anyone able to find the section?
So the pre-gen alchemist had +4 to it’s bomb throws, with the only 18 stat being Intelligence. Being the primary stat of the class it would make sense if throwing bombs what using int state, but for the life of me I can’t find it in the rulebook. Anyone able to find the section?
He would also get level to his attack bonus. Was Dex a 16?
So the pre-gen alchemist had +4 to it’s bomb throws, with the only 18 stat being Intelligence. Being the primary stat of the class it would make sense if throwing bombs what using int state, but for the life of me I can’t find it in the rulebook. Anyone able to find the section?He would also get level to his attack bonus. Was Dex a 16?
It was, so it’s dex to throw.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
8. pretty positive its 8.
also various other places on the forums also go with 8.Thank you!
They should simply say "You start with eight formulas" in one spot. Time to go update my Alchemist :)
No kidding this confused me as well. The way it is worded makes it highly unclear if it is just referencing the four you are listed as starting with or not.
No kidding this confused me as well. The way it is worded makes it highly unclear if it is just referencing the four you are listed as starting with or not.8. pretty positive its 8.
also various other places on the forums also go with 8.Thank you!
They should simply say "You start with eight formulas" in one spot. Time to go update my Alchemist :)
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, RAI is 4. Paizo has a terrible habit of inconsistent wording, but it's because they literally expect us to figure things out without their help. No one else starts with 8 of anything, so yeah, it's probably 4.
Good point. Page 51 has a sample starting formula book with 8 formulas :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really wish Mutagen use was relegated to a feat and I could something else as a class feature. Same with bombs. I don't always want to focus on bombs; when I do, I want that to be my primary thing. I don't always want to use mutagens; when I do, I want it to be my primary thing. More general alchemical enhancements, especially in the support area, would make me happier.
The Alchemist needs alternative combat styles than bombs. Maybe make Mutagens start at first level for a combat alchemist.
Also, who not a golem animal companion. That would be awesome!
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, RAI is 4. Paizo has a terrible habit of inconsistent wording, but it's because they literally expect us to figure things out without their help. No one else starts with 8 of anything, so yeah, it's probably 4.No kidding this confused me as well. The way it is worded makes it highly unclear if it is just referencing the four you are listed as starting with or not.8. pretty positive its 8.
also various other places on the forums also go with 8.Thank you!
They should simply say "You start with eight formulas" in one spot. Time to go update my Alchemist :)
That was my thought but when you look at their recommended starter book of formulas it lists 8. It is also entirely possible they were still in the process of figuring if they wanted it to be 4 or 8 and left it in a way that it is just inconclusive. This is something that should be spelled out much more clearly for the final book.
No Alchemists Need alot of Freaking Help. the Rules for crafting are too broken ((in a bad way not a good way)) to be usable. to craft 4 alchemical fires a level 1 item as a level 1 character you need to spend 6 gold up front and work for bare minimium of 4 days then spend the other 6 gold or spend more days to make it cheaper. to get it at half price you have brew the same 4 alchemist fires for a total of 64 days to spend only 6 gold on them (the initial 6)
thats for 4 alchemist first that you will end up throwing in 4 rounds. the alchemist can spend resonance to make 2 alchemical fires durring daily prep but then what? you need resonance to use magic items too and potions and all the alchemist abilities generally require resonance to do. ok so you cant spend too much to make your alchemist fires ahead of tiem i can spend may 3 points to get 6 bombs for the day. if i need more quick alchemy lets me spend 1 resonance for 1 alchemical item.. that exchange rate. you cant do anything with the class but if you wanna brew them it takes 2 months and 4 days to get enough to throw in 4 rounds of combat. then on top of that if you go up in level you have to get to level 11 to be able to make those same 4 alchmical fires in just 2 days and because their is a time minimium of 1 day to get it at store price and a minimium of 1 more day to get it at half price thats 2 days for 4 rounds of combat throwing alchemical fires. and it never gets any better than 2 days.
and this supposed to be the alchmist's main thing his speciality
Made even more weird by the fact there basically is no real reason after a couple levels to ever try to make bombs using normal alchemy because they get no benefit from any of your powers until you are like level 20. So plus side is you are not spending gold making bombs but you are using your precious resonance heavily which makes using magic items and wearing magical gear problematic.
The Alchemist needs alternative combat styles than bombs. Maybe make Mutagens start at first level for a combat alchemist.
Also, who not a golem animal companion. That would be awesome!
One of the several off site interviews said this was possible.
Not in playtest. Release? Maybe.
Look up Tinkerer Alchemist until then.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There isn't much magic item support for alchemists. The only item I noticed that really helped them much, not counting the more standard gear, were the Greater Alchemist Goggles for a +2 item bonus to hit and ignore screening.
Bomb-focused alchemists don't have many ways to boost their to-hit in the late game. Empowered Bombs gives them up to a +2 item bonus, after that its just their Dexterity. The only way to improve this are mutagens, but then you have to accept their drawbacks or invest more feats. Alchemists who use unarmed strikes and weapons fare a bit better, though the alchemist's proficiency in armor and weapons doesn't progress past trained (neither does their Class DC for that matter). This might lead to more scaling issues, but would have to see how this all works in-game at later levels.
I do wish alchemists had more "fun" feats and magic items. Explosive Missile was one of my favorite PF1 discoveries, and the Sipping Jacket would be an awesome armor trinket (store an infused elixir or mutagen for up to 24 hours, can drink it as an action without the manipulate trait). A personal favorite item though was a pair of Gauntlets that extended my alchemist's thrown weapon range, which could be ported over into PF2 and allow for Rune enchantments to hit and the like.
I second the motion that Advanced Alchemy (including the Quick Alchemy action it grants) should cost spell points instead of resonance, or else be drawn from a similarly seperate pool like clerics draw from for channel energy.
Or Quick Alchemy can just not cost RP or any other resource at all. Since it already costs and action in combat, then another action to throw a bomb, drink an elixir/mutagen, or apply a poison. Poisons and Bombs are likely going to compare to Cantrips. Maybe slightly better in some cases but for the most part not, and the Alchemists don't have actual spells.
As for Elixir's and Mutagens, giving them to others would still require a bunch of actions on everyone's part and the other person would still require spending Resonance. And if the Alchemist uses them on themselves? Well that takes a lot of actions to keep themselves topped up without doing much. Maybe if there is no Resonance cost for Mutagens and other Elixirs crafted with Quick Alchemy there could be a Resonance cost to use them, so long as Poisons and Bombs at least have no Resonance cost.
It's a bit weird that they made the alchemist stop having alchemical combat options once they run out of resonance. It's similar to the 3.5 caster problem where they'd run out of spells and be a cut rate commoner till they could rest.
I don't know what they need, better weapon selection, an at will spell like thing similar to a cantrip, a rifle, but something.
As they are right now, I would only build one as a chassis for multiclassing. Alchemist fighter/graymaiden would probably be pretty cool.
Maybe alchemist/rogue depending on how quickdraw interacts with quick bombing.
The class doesn't stand on its own though.
By now, I have seen 2 alchemists in our playtest groups. One of them went for the elven racial bow weapons and effectively played the character as a sort-of martial. The other picked wizard dedication multiclass path and used cantrips and an arcane wand to dps.
Neither of them went for bombs (except for a couple of poor initial tries of using quick alchemy in combat; the only fight where it actually made any sense was using alchemist fire against mummies).
Instead, both found themselves in clericless groups and used all of their quick alchemy effects allotment to make as good elixirs of healing as they had formulas off. Sure, RP cost, but at least that did not require money. Both kept routinely hitting 0 Resonance points by the end of an adventuring day, most of them spent for healing elixirs between fights (using quick alchemy in combat is very unwieldy action-wise), and rare few - to use for other items. It was like "ok, our alchemist is out of resonance, time for rest".
Basically, they were weaker at combat than other classes and had to used non-alchemy options to be of any use at all. Utility alchemy is good outside fights.