Persistent Damage is very rough


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Is it me, or are the rules for stripping persistent damage incredibly rough?

You get clipped by, say, acid arrow, and start taking 1d6 acid damage/round. If you want to get rid of this, it's a flat DC 20 check. so you could reasonably expect to each 10d6 damage off of that one spell over time.

That said, you can reduce that flat check to.... DC15. That's still a really hard check, and consequently a lot of damage.

Does this seem...problematic, to anyone else?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, I was raising my eyebrows at that as well. I wonder how long it will take until we get the first horror stories of PC's dying horribly because they got hit by an acid splash after their resonance and healing ran out.

Well, it should at least give Turin a laugh.


Is there even a clarification on what kind of action it is to reduce the check to 15? Does trying to wash off acid or remove flames provoke reactions? Is it a single action or an activity? Does it require a check?


Sayt wrote:

Is it me, or are the rules for stripping persistent damage incredibly rough?

You get clipped by, say, acid arrow, and start taking 1d6 acid damage/round. If you want to get rid of this, it's a flat DC 20 check. so you could reasonably expect to each 10d6 damage off of that one spell over time.

That said, you can reduce that flat check to.... DC15. That's still a really hard check, and consequently a lot of damage.

Does this seem...problematic, to anyone else?

Well, bleed is instantly healed if healed to max hp.

It makes persistent damage scary though, but that could be a expected thing.


Basically,if you actively try to put it out, that’s a 30% chance, so slightly less than four rounds?

With my luck, however, I’ll probably die every time. :)


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Another problem is that it's very asymmetrical.

Enemies get persistent damage, take it once, then die because it's round 4 of the combat.

Players get persistent damage, fight through it during the combat, then struggle not to die after the combat as they're rolling around, rubbing sand in it, etc.

That is, the only way for a character to get the full bang out of their persistent damage, whether they're a pc or npc...is to not kill the target. npcs are good at doing that, because killing PCs tends to drag the game to a halt.

PCs on the other hand, when they're in a combat, their plan is to reduce the foes to 0 HP, and it's hard to strategize around not doing that just to...inflict some extra damage.

Dark Archive

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It's a single action to roll on the ground, right? I believe the book says you get an additional roll after doing so. If you spend 3 actions, that's 3 30% chances plus the one after taking the damage. You end up with a 76% chance of removing it if you spend your whole turn washing/rolling.


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Mergy wrote:
It's a single action to roll on the ground, right? I believe the book says you get an additional roll after doing so. If you spend 3 actions, that's 3 30% chances plus the one after taking the damage. You end up with a 76% chance of removing it if you spend your whole turn washing/rolling.

I forgot that! When you said that, I remembered this from the Glass Cannon Playtest. So if you give up your whole turn for two turns you are almost guaranteed to end the condition. Harsh, but I kinda like it!


I mentioned persistent damage being killer in a couple other threads.

Ah yes, the General spell concerns thread.


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I think it is dangerous. I also think it is quite a good thing.

Silver Crusade

Sayt wrote:

Is it me, or are the rules for stripping persistent damage incredibly rough?

You get clipped by, say, acid arrow, and start taking 1d6 acid damage/round. If you want to get rid of this, it's a flat DC 20 check. so you could reasonably expect to each 10d6 damage off of that one spell over time.

That said, you can reduce that flat check to.... DC15. That's still a really hard check, and consequently a lot of damage.

Does this seem...problematic, to anyone else?

I agree that it seems a bit too much. Even though it's been said that you can spend all 3 of your actions to give yourself a 76% chance of putting it out.

I guess if the persistent damage drops you to zero HP, you're pretty much dead. Also, with no set duration on the items, it seems like you throw a vial of acid, kill your target and it bores a hole to the center of the earth.

Dark Archive

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Ted LG wrote:
Sayt wrote:

Is it me, or are the rules for stripping persistent damage incredibly rough?

You get clipped by, say, acid arrow, and start taking 1d6 acid damage/round. If you want to get rid of this, it's a flat DC 20 check. so you could reasonably expect to each 10d6 damage off of that one spell over time.

That said, you can reduce that flat check to.... DC15. That's still a really hard check, and consequently a lot of damage.

Does this seem...problematic, to anyone else?

I agree that it seems a bit too much. Even though it's been said that you can spend all 3 of your actions to give yourself a 76% chance of putting it out.

I guess if the persistent damage drops you to zero HP, you're pretty much dead. Also, with no set duration on the items, it seems like you throw a vial of acid, kill your target and it bores a hole to the center of the earth.

It's weaponized acid. If you splash something on yourself in chemistry class aren't you supposed to wash the area for one to two minutes? If it's really bad you might need a hospital trip anyway. I'd expect something created especially to kill to be more dangerous than that.

Weaponized acid.


Mergy wrote:
Ted LG wrote:
Sayt wrote:

Is it me, or are the rules for stripping persistent damage incredibly rough?

You get clipped by, say, acid arrow, and start taking 1d6 acid damage/round. If you want to get rid of this, it's a flat DC 20 check. so you could reasonably expect to each 10d6 damage off of that one spell over time.

That said, you can reduce that flat check to.... DC15. That's still a really hard check, and consequently a lot of damage.

Does this seem...problematic, to anyone else?

I agree that it seems a bit too much. Even though it's been said that you can spend all 3 of your actions to give yourself a 76% chance of putting it out.

I guess if the persistent damage drops you to zero HP, you're pretty much dead. Also, with no set duration on the items, it seems like you throw a vial of acid, kill your target and it bores a hole to the center of the earth.

It's weaponized acid. If you splash something on yourself in chemistry class aren't you supposed to wash the area for one to two minutes? If it's really bad you might need a hospital trip anyway. I'd expect something created especially to kill to be more dangerous than that.

Weaponized acid.

Exactly, acid is horrible. And it's hard to get it off and you MUST NOT use water as that will only make it worse.

IF you want to see the effects google "acid attack victims" or better, don't do that.

It's better to be hit with a baseball bat on the face.


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You get an EXTRA roll when spending an action to immediately stop the persistent damage! And you still get your free roll at the end of your round as well, and it gets the benefit of being only a DC 15 flat check as well!

Not only can you spend actions to stop the persistent damage, so can adjacent allies. A good use of a third action.

And finally, once you've spent an action, all remaining free flat checks against that persistent damage are DC 15, even if you ignore the damage in the following rounds.

Page 323 of the Playtest book says wrote:


You or an ally can spend actions to help you recover from persistent damage, such as casting healing spells or using Medicine to Administer First Aid against bleeding, dousing a flame, or washing off acid; successfully doing so reduces the DC of that condition’s flat check to 15 and usually lets you immediately attempt an extra flat check to end that persistent damage. The reduction to the DC lasts until you remove the persistent damage or gain another persistent damage condition with the same damage type.

This applies to bleeding as well as other forms of persistent damage.

So while persistent damage is good, it's not godly. Hopefully on the 1st round you can spend at least 1 action to give yourself a 60% chance of stopping it, more if you can spend more than one action.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

It also makes persistent damage super powerful against creatures with no way to stop it - say animals. Since you can get bleed effects at 1st level - it becomes an incredibly effective tactic to say use tiger stance as a monk on a foe, hit once, then run away and let the poor owlbear bleed out.


JoelF847 wrote:
It also makes persistent damage super powerful against creatures with no way to stop it - say animals. Since you can get bleed effects at 1st level - it becomes an incredibly effective tactic to say use tiger stance as a monk on a foe, hit once, then run away and let the poor owlbear bleed out.

I don't see why an animal can't roll on the ground to put out a fire like a humanoid.

Or with bleeding damage, pressing up against it, licking their wounds, or the blood flow just cauterizing.

Animals should be able to recover as well as anyone else not trained in Medicine.


Honestly persistent damage, and the ability to play "keep away" is one of the reasons I am really curious how my Alchemist will play. Bombs being the spice and used mainly for for targeted options.

Interesting note though. Acid Flask I feel like is a nicer bomb than alchemist fire because of the persistent daamge bit. One action to completely clear the alchemist fire from you.
"A creature adjacent to the target can also end the persistent damage by spending an Interact action." from alchemist's fire. Doesn't even say you get the check to try and end it. You end it, straight up. One action.
Tanglefoot is 3 actions.
So, I feel that Acid and bleed are the best persistent damages.
makes alchemist's and rogues love things IMO.


I was happy to find out that being underwater gives resistance 5 acid, as well as fire.


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What if the target is suffering from something other than acid, bleed, or fire (which have examples in the Persistent Damage section)? What is the action one would take to reduce the DC for negative damage (from Disrupt Ki, e.g.)? Is the fact that they spent an action trying to recover from the persistent damage sufficient?


Zwordsman wrote:

Interesting note though. Acid Flask I feel like is a nicer bomb than alchemist fire because of the persistent daamge bit. One action to completely clear the alchemist fire from you.

"A creature adjacent to the target can also end the persistent damage by spending an Interact action." from alchemist's fire. Doesn't even say you get the check to try and end it. You end it, straight up. One action.

Yeah, my group noticed this last night too. I then examined the other level 1 flasks:

Acid - persistent damage, general rules
Lightning - persistent damage, general rules
Fire - persistent damage, specific (more lenient) rules
Ice - different effect
Thunder - different effect


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jozh wrote:
What if the target is suffering from something other than acid, bleed, or fire (which have examples in the Persistent Damage section)? What is the action one would take to reduce the DC for negative damage (from Disrupt Ki, e.g.)? Is the fact that they spent an action trying to recover from the persistent damage sufficient?

pdf quick jump to 322.

This states all persistent damage is a flat check dc20. Unless someone attempts helping, or a reasonable environmental aid (such as water vs acid or fire), in which case it is reduced to dc 15 flat check permanently (or until reapplied by whatever applied it originally)
What kind of persistent doesnt actually matter one iota--Unless. the ability has a specific line about required elements,and trumps the general rules listed below.

This is, of course, bypassed by specific statement.s Such as Alchemist's Fire stating
"The target can end this persistent damage by spending an Interact
action or by becoming submerged in water or otherwise entering
an area deprived of air. A creature adjacent to the target can also
end the persistent damage by spending an Interact action." where there is no check, it simply requires an action to end.

persistent damage quote:

Persistent Damage
Persistent damage comes from effects like acid or burning
and appears as “X persistent [type] damage,” where the
“X” is the amount of damage dealt and “[type]” is the
damage type. While affected by persistent damage, at
the end of your turn you take the specified amount and
type of damage, after which you can attempt a DC 20
flat check to remove the persistent damage. You roll
the damage dice anew each time you take the persistent
damage. Immunities, resistances, and weaknesses all
apply to persistent damage. If an effect deals damage
immediately and also deals persistent damage, you don’t
take the persistent damage if you negate the other damage.
For example, an attack that deals slashing damage and
persistent bleed damage wouldn’t deal the persistent bleed
damage if you blocked all of the slashing damage.
You can be simultaneously affected by multiple
persistent damage conditions so long as they have different
damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent
damage condition with the same damage type, the higher
amount of damage overrides the lower amount. All
types of persistent damage occur at once, so if something
triggers when you take damage, it triggers only one time.
Persistent damage can have the bleed type, meaning it
affects only living creatures that need blood to survive.
Bleeding automatically ends if you’re healed to your
maximum Hit Points.
You or an ally can spend actions to help you recover
from persistent damage, such as casting healing spells or
using Medicine to Administer First Aid against bleeding,
dousing a flame, or washing off acid; successfully doing
so reduces the DC of that condition’s flat check to 15
and usually lets you immediately attempt an extra flat
check to end that persistent damage. The reduction to
the DC lasts until you remove the persistent damage or
gain another persistent damage condition with the same
damage type.


Draco18s wrote:


Yeah, my group noticed this last night too. I then examined the other level 1 flasks:

Acid - persistent damage, general rules
Lightning - persistent damage, general rules
Fire - persistent damage, specific (more lenient) rules
Ice - different effect
Thunder - different effect

acid flask, alchemist flask do persistent damage.

Bottled lighting just does damage, splash, and flatfooted right? What item are you referring to?

as a random note of weird.
IF you have that lv.. 10? + alchemist feat *sticky bomb i think?* that turns splash damage into persistent damage. IF you used that with the alchemist's flask.
I am pretty sure the Flask's persistent damage can be ended with just the one action.
but. The new persistent (which is likely to be bigger than the alchemist's flask's persistent damage. meaning it would override the Flask's natural amount) from the feat.. I think would run off normal rules for persistent aka. harder to get rid of. Which sorta makes sense I guess, as that extra stuff is special alchemist's skill/knowledge based.


Zwordsman wrote:

pdf quick jump to 322.

This states all persistent damage is a flat check dc20. Unless someone attempts helping, or a reasonable environmental aid (such as water vs acid or fire), in which case it is reduced to dc 15 flat check permanently (or until reapplied by whatever applied it originally)
What kind of persistent doesnt actually matter one iota--Unless. the ability has a specific line about required elements,and trumps the general rules listed below.

This is, of course, bypassed by specific statement.s Such as Alchemist's Fire stating

"The target can end this persistent damage by spending an Interact
action or by becoming submerged in water or otherwise entering
an area deprived of air. A creature adjacent to the target can also
end the persistent damage by spending an Interact action." where there is no check, it simply requires an action to end.

I can dig it.


Zwordsman wrote:

acid flask, alchemist flask do persistent damage.

Bottled lighting just does damage, splash, and flatfooted right? What item are you referring to?

I was thinking of Bottled Lightning, but you're right I mis-remembered (that's what happens when the forum loses my post and then dies for five hours). I thought there was a third one. Oops.

Quote:

as a random note of weird.

I think would run off normal rules for persistent aka. harder to get rid of. Which sorta makes sense I guess, as that extra stuff is special alchemist's skill/knowledge based.

Huh.


Pathfinder Card Game, Cards Subscriber

What actions for negative damage from disrupt ki?


@zamfield probably just focusing or trying to control breathing since they are trying to right the flow of ki within them.

Anyways. As others have said it's 1 action to lower the DC to 15 and a free check. You can then spend more actions, such as continuing to dose yourself in water for burning, the DC stays 15 but you can make a new check with each action as well as the one you make at the end of your turn. So at most you can get 4 attempts a round


It's been a long time since I've had a statistic class, but if I'm recalling correctly...

The chance of success for a flat DC 15 check, is 30%, 0.3.
The chance of failure is 70%, 0.7.

This is for each individual roll.

So the chance that you would fail 3 consecutive rolls is 0.7*0.7*0.7. Or 0.343, or 34%. Meaning the chance succeed on at least 1 is 66%. If you extend this to four rolls in a round you chance to succeed on at least one is 76%.

Mergy mentioned that before, and I was trying to figure out how they reached that, but initially I thought you only had three opportunities in a round, not 4.

A 75% chance of ending the condition by spending the entire round attempting to do so is pretty good IMO. If you fail the first round and spend 1 action that round (4 total) you have a 83% chance to succeed, 5 total actions is 88%, 6 total action (2 complete rounds) is 94% because you have 8 attempts. So you're pretty unlikely to fail for more than 1 round, and really unlikely to fail for 2. The math is more complicated if you don't take the action because it changes the chance of success from 30% to 5%.

If you're taking persistent damage it's probably wise to spend at least 1 action trying to get rid of it, since it increase the chance of success for your free roll to get rid of.


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I feel like persistent damage being very strong is in order to incentivize PCs using it, since monsters do not last more than one combat, a player is unlikely to choose a persistent damage effect unless it is very efficient.

A GM, or a module designer can control how often it's used against the player, but it has to be strong to encourage players to use it. I recall quite a few times in the PF1 forums where someone wanted to have a persistent damage/bleed/whatever character and the general consensus was "It's not very good, but here's how you can do it, I guess."


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like persistent damage being very strong is in order to incentivize PCs using it, since monsters do not last more than one combat, a player is unlikely to choose a persistent damage effect unless it is very efficient.

A GM, or a module designer can control how often it's used against the player, but it has to be strong to encourage players to use it. I recall quite a few times in the PF1 forums where someone wanted to have a persistent damage/bleed/whatever character and the general consensus was "It's not very good, but here's how you can do it, I guess."

This is a fair point.

I'm just a huge fan of persistent damage tbh, so I like it being able to be used, even if it is impractical in quick fights.


Oh this old post~

Yeah. Persistent is just sooo much fun.
A hilarious scenario.. a boss got dosed in Acid, and kept failing when we retrated.. it died alone in a hole. Though I suppose it could've gone to find water.


Another interesting oddity of persistent damage: if players have an easy way of applying it (e.g. a wounding weapon) then the monsters can only ever waste actions trying to end it early (as the next time you hit, it gets reapplied).


Looks like Persistent damage got hit with the Nerf bat


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Atalius wrote:
Looks like Persistent damage got hit with the Nerf bat

????


Used to love playing a necro in EQ with a spell list full of d.o.t.


Didnt Persistent damage get changed? Or same rules as the original Playtest Rulebook Captain Morgan?


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Nope, hasn't been changed a bit to my knowledge.

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