Class Powers mixed with Spells


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


The first thing is see missing is a list of Ki powers. Monks can get Ki Powers but it is a pain to find what they are. the spell casters have a nice list of their spells and what level they are. The Monk Ki Powers are just all mixed in with the spell descriptions. If they don't have Ki in the name how do i know if they are Monk powers it isn't even stated in the description who can use it.


Doctadud wrote:
The first thing is see missing is a list of Ki powers. Monks can get Ki Powers but it is a pain to find what they are. the spell casters have a nice list of their spells and what level they are. The Monk Ki Powers are just all mixed in with the spell descriptions. If they don't have Ki in the name how do i know if they are Monk powers it isn't even stated in the description who can use it.

I guess it is kind of there in the Monk list of feats but in seems a list of powers before the spells/powers section would be nice


The Monk seems to be the only class whose powers are separated from the rest.

I agree with your second post. Mixing spells and powers in the same list may seem okay at first since they work the same way, but it makes them really hard to find as they are hidden between spells. Powers should be in their own lists. Not necesseraly tied to their classe's chapter, but separated from "normal" spells, since you can't select powers when you can select spells, and vice versa.


The spell powers should absolutely be separated from the spell descriptions.

There should be lists of spells by spell school (e.g., a list of conjuration spells). While some spells, such as "summon monster", are readily identified as being in the conjuration school, some others, including the new spells, are more difficult to identify (is the "negate aroma" spell transmutation, or illusion, or...I wouldn't have thought it is abjuration).

If normal adventurers can only select commonly-known spells, why not have a separate list for uncommon and rare spells?


Class Powers need to have their own listing apart from Spells.

MHO.


Having them in with the spell descriptions isn't too bad, but I feel like we need an extra page between the end of the spell lists and the start of the spell descriptions, and to have that page showing the class power lists.

The descriptions are all in alphabetical order so it's not too hard to find a power once you know the name (helped by the fact that powers have a red level number in their header while spells have a black one), it's just having an easy reference for those names that's needed. Spellcasters have the spell lists right before the descriptions, but finding the names of class powers requires you to flip through the class feats to find them all (unless you're playing a Sorcerer, then you just find all the powers in your Bloodline entry).


Hi I appreciate that the playtest has ended and this might be to late but there should be a separate section for spells and powers and if possible could you please break spells down by level and then alphabetically as it makes it a lot easier during character creation to find all the spells.


SadSAK wrote:
Hi I appreciate that the playtest has ended and this might be to late but there should be a separate section for spells and powers and if possible could you please break spells down by level and then alphabetically as it makes it a lot easier during character creation to find all the spells.

They have already confirmed that Spells and Powers will be separate and they already are in their internal playtest files. I'm not sure about the second part.


My biggest problem is just that it already starts to dilute the meaning of Uncommon, since there's an entire class of spells that's only labelled as Uncommon because you have to get them through class features.


RazarTuk wrote:
My biggest problem is just that it already starts to dilute the meaning of Uncommon, since there's an entire class of spells that's only labelled as Uncommon because you have to get them through class features.

That's basically the definition of uncommon though. It is stuff you can either get through taking particular options or by asking your GM. Rare is where you get into stuff that can only be obtained through GM intervention.


Captain Morgan wrote:
RazarTuk wrote:
My biggest problem is just that it already starts to dilute the meaning of Uncommon, since there's an entire class of spells that's only labelled as Uncommon because you have to get them through class features.
That's basically the definition of uncommon though. It is stuff you can either get through taking particular options or by asking your GM. Rare is where you get into stuff that can only be obtained through GM intervention.

Yes, but it's unclear why something is uncommon if uncommon can mean two different things, making it difficult for a GM to know whether they should be saying "yes" to something or not.

Uncommon is the one that requires GM permission, but it's also what gates some class feature stuff, and the power or spell itself won't necessarily tell you that's the case. So the GM is left guessing.

I'd rather class feat stuff have its own rarity, if it is to continue using the rarity system. Or, if not, some other easily spotted marker that lets the player and the GM both know immediately that this spell/power is actually off-limits because you're supposed to pay for it with a feat. Anything that is Uncommon for campaign-disruption reasons like Zone of Truth should also include a note to the GM explaining why, so that newer GM's have some guidance on when to say yes or no.


Helmic wrote:


Yes, but it's unclear why something is uncommon if uncommon can mean two different things, making it difficult for a GM to know whether they should be saying "yes" to something or not.

Uncommon is the one that requires GM permission, but it's also what gates some class feature stuff, and the power or spell itself won't necessarily tell you that's the case. So the GM is left guessing.

I'd rather class feat stuff have its own rarity, if it is to continue using the rarity system. Or, if not, some other easily spotted marker that lets the player and the GM both know immediately that this spell/power is actually off-limits because you're supposed to pay for it with a feat.

I'd rather class feat stuff have its own rarity, if it is to continue using the rarity system

Isn't this basically solved by moving powers into their own separate chapter, which we know they are doing? I can't think of another example whose rarity seems easy to conflate. Like, there are uncommon spells, but they don't intersect with feats at all IIRC. And there are uncommon items that do, but that's mostly pretty obvious-- dwarves can gain access to dwarf stuff with dwarf feats, monks can gain access to monk stuff with monk feats-- and seems fine to just allow for story reasons anyway, largely.

Powers seem to basically be THE class locked rarity system. So having them in a separate chapter makes it pretty clear cut, maybe with a couple sentences at the beginning of the chapter explaining this.

Quote:
Anything that is Uncommon for campaign-disruption reasons like Zone of Truth should also include a note to the GM explaining why, so that newer GM's have some guidance on when to say yes or no.

Yeah, that would be nice, though I'm not entirely sure if its worth the space for each narrative disrupting option. I'd like to think that if a spell is highlighted and a player has to ask the GM, the GM will be forced to think through WHY it can be disruptive in the first place. That might be giving folks too much credit though. I know I've warned GMs about how certain things might feel disruptive and they've still managed to feel surprised by it. (5e is actually really bad about this, especially the Warlock.)


Captain Morgan wrote:

Isn't this basically solved by moving powers into their own separate chapter, which we know they are doing? I can't think of another example whose rarity seems easy to conflate. Like, there are uncommon spells, but they don't intersect with feats at all IIRC. And there are uncommon items that do, but that's mostly pretty obvious-- dwarves can gain access to dwarf stuff with dwarf feats, monks can gain access to monk stuff with monk feats-- and seems fine to just allow for story reasons anyway, largely.

Powers seem to basically be THE class locked rarity system. So having them in a separate chapter makes it pretty clear cut, maybe with a couple sentences at the beginning of the chapter explaining this.

To be more specific, Triple Time is a Bard cantrip that's usually only available through the feat of the same name. Same with Inspire Competence and Inspire Courage.

To make things worse, they don't have a solid box, instead relying on text only which is a lot thinner. It can be difficult for those like myself that can't see red very well to even pick up that the cantrip is uncommon.

Aside from rarity, the only thing marking the spell as something special is the fact that it's not actually specified as part of a spell list.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Yeah, that would be nice, though I'm not entirely sure if its worth the space for each narrative disrupting option. I'd like to think that if a spell is highlighted and a player has to ask the GM, the GM will be forced to think through WHY it can be disruptive in the first place. That might be giving folks too much credit though. I know I've warned GMs about how certain things might feel disruptive and they've still managed to feel surprised by it. (5e is actually really bad about this, especially the Warlock.)

There aren't that many spells marked uncommon for that reason and it'll have to be written down somewhere because a new GM is not necessarily going to know what the big deal about Alter Reality or Wish is, In order to even think about why these spells might be a problem, you have to have at least heard of them being problems or imagined a sceanrio where it could be one - and for you to imagine such a scenario, you must have played at least one game and gotten a grip of what a typical D&D-style adventure is like.

Given that, I think the space spent explaining each Uncommon-because-it's-potentially-disruptive spell is marked as such would be a good use of space, it makes it unmissable so both player and GM understand the reasoning. If not there in the spell list, it would have to be in the GM section separated from it, where it might not be found as it would require the GM to know what the rarity system implies in the first place, something you can't rely on when the rules for the entire system are so complex.


Helmic wrote:
...

Fair enough. :)

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