# Monk multiple attack penalty

### Classes

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Vahnyu wrote:

Given that Flurry combines both hits into one, for DR overcoming purposes, you already have precious little reason to ever not Flurry as your first attack.

They also combine for weakness, which would make them deal less damage against a weak target. Edge case, but still there.

Draco18s wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
If Flurry counted as two attacks, but both Flurry strikes have the same multiattack penalty, then Flurry followed by Strike would be +0,+0,-8 and Strike followed by Flurry would be +0,-4,-4. This does not force always-flurry-first, but it gives two different results. And it is harder to explain.

Soo...Double Slice

Quote:

Make one Strike (see page 308) with each of your two melee weapons, each at your current

multiple attack penalty. The second Strike takes a –2 circumstance penalty if it’s made with
a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait (see page 182). If both attacks hit, combine the
attacks’ damage, and then add any other applicable enhancements from both weapons. For
purposes of resistances and weaknesses, this is considered a single Strike. This counts as
two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty (see page 305).
:P

there's this little detail that double slice actually costs double the actions of flurry.

flurry is the less accurate but much quiquer and much more mobile brother of double slice.

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Page 178
MULTIPLE ATTACK PENALTY
If you attack more than once on the same turn, your
attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple
attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and
any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty. This penalty is
untyped and is cumulative with all other penalties.
The penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you take when it
isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction),
though these attacks often have their own penalty. You
can choose a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your
multiple attack penalty (see page 182).

Page 305
Multiple Attack Penalty
Attacks are particularly strenuous and become less and
less effective the more you use them during a single turn.
The second time you use an attack action (anything with
the attack trait) during your turn, you take a –5 penalty
subsequent attacks if you have a way to take more) you
take a –10 penalty. This penalty is called your multiple
attack penalty. The multiple attack penalty applies only
on your turn and resets at the end of your turn. Attacks
you can make outside of your turn might include their
own penalties.

Looks like these were written by two different authors and the wording leads me to think there is some ambiguity.

shroudb wrote:
but it gives two different results. And it is harder to explain.

Soo...Double Slice

:P there's this little detail that double slice actually costs double the actions of flurry.

Well yes, but the (redacted quote portion) is more what I was poking fun at.

Draco18s wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
but it gives two different results. And it is harder to explain.

Soo...Double Slice

:P

there's this little detail that double slice actually costs double the actions of flurry.
Well yes, but the (redacted quote portion) is more what I was poking fun at.

And despite all the verbiage in Double Slice, I think it has an error. The sentence that says, "If both attacks hit, combine the attacks’ damage, and then add any other applicable enhancements from both weapons," shcould really say, "If both attacks hit the same creature, combine the attacks’ damage, and then add any other applicable enhancements from both weapons." And I prefer the wording on the monk's Flurry of Blows, "If both hit the same creature, combine their damage and enhancements for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses."

I have two players who, after reading Double Slice, would look to me and ask me to explain it to them. I hope that the final version of Double Slice in Pathfinder 2nd Edition will be clearer than this.

Quote:
I hope that the final version of Double Slice in Pathfinder 2nd Edition will be clearer than this.

Oh, agreed.

Along with like 60 other things.

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By the way, it has been confirmed (Official Paizo Twitch on 8/24) that Flurry is intended to be "you take 1 action to make 2 strikes". Each "thing you do" that has the attack trait adds to MAP. So Flurry with unarmed, done as the first action, is (0, -4) due to agile.

Rhyst wrote:
By the way, it has been confirmed (Official Paizo Twitch on 8/24) that Flurry is intended to be "you take 1 action to make 2 strikes". Each "thing you do" that has the attack trait adds to MAP. So Flurry with unarmed, done as the first action, is (0, -4) due to agile.

That makes the most sense to me at this point. Given the Forceful weapon trait, it would be incredibly strong if the second attack did not take a penalty.

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Personally I wish they spread the penalty out a bit as a -0,-4 just feels weird to be as one action. I'd rather take -2,-2 instead giving both attacks an equal chance to hit making it more likely they activate their "combined" effect.

I was pretty much convinced that the 0/-4 attack penalty for a flurry is what they had in mind. But in the Order of the Amber die playest blog, they ran it as 0/0 for the flurry attack penalty (followed by -4 and -8 for the follow up attacks). And they tend to be pretty good at getting the rules right.

So now I'm again unsure as to how this was intended to work...

Yeah, I really don't think running the Flurry as 0/0 is game breaking or anything. If they want the attacks to take a penalty I'd want them to count it as a 1 attack at -2/-2 so that if you attack two more times that turn it goes (-2/-2), -4, -8. I still think that the 0/-4 is really weird and feels strange to explain to someone.

I was confused also until Jason Bulham talked about on the twitch stream.

flurry of blows is a singe action to grants you two attacks that are not affected by the multi attack penalty.

so its full, full, -4, -8 -8

I therefore assume that tiger slash/flurry/ is full, -8, -8

while flurry/tiger slash is full, full, -4,

Rhyst wrote:
By the way, it has been confirmed (Official Paizo Twitch on 8/24) that Flurry is intended to be "you take 1 action to make 2 strikes". Each "thing you do" that has the attack trait adds to MAP. So Flurry with unarmed, done as the first action, is (0, -4) due to agile.

I believe you misheard him. he stated that flurry grants you two attacks, that are not affected by the MAP. so they get MAP whenever you take it.

so if flurry was you first its 0, 0
if you attacked first with some other kind of attack, then the flurry is -4. -4

if the flurry was your third attack then it's -8, -8

Any chance you could direct me to the twitch stream you’re referring to, and when Jason talks about this?

Because now someone in the order of the amber die thread has said they got confirmation that it was supposed to be 0/-4...

So confusing!

Daniel Scholler wrote:
FireclawDrake wrote:
Flurry it was played as 0/0, then -4 (agile) and -8 (agile).

This does seem to be an incorrect reading of the ability, as it does 2 Strike actions, both of which have the Attack trait (and thus both are separately affected by MAP).

I could see an argument for both strikes occuring at the same time and thus not affecting each other, but then the remainder of the attacks would be at -8 with agile (since you've already had two actions with the attack trait from Flurry). However, with the conspicuous absence of such language from the Flurry description (whereas Double Slice includes it, for example), I'm fairly certain 0/-4 for flurry is the correct reading.

Yes, received confirmation to end the debate. No matter how we've each chosen to play it, correct ruling is 0/-4, which--most importantly--means Lem might just have a chance at showing Sajan up in a combat on the next blog. Hehehe!

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ok I rewatched the stream.
i was wrong. the Map does apply to flurry.

ikarinokami wrote:

ok I rewatched the stream.

i was wrong. the Map does apply to flurry.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification!

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