The Main Problem of PF2


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
They also have a feat that lets their "step"(I haven't read what a step is yet I'm going to look it up now.) ignore hindering terrain

"Hindering terrain"? What like a favored terrain for a ranger? What definition are they using for hindering terrain?

God this book is discombobulated. I can't find anything


Skystarlit1 wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
They also have a feat that lets their "step"(I haven't read what a step is yet I'm going to look it up now.) ignore hindering terrain

"Hindering terrain"? What like a favored terrain for a elf? What definition are they using for hindering terrain?

God this book is discombobulated. I can't find anything

I imagine its the same as hindering terrain in PF1 but its probably going to be in the "playing the game section" you did play PF1 right?

Ah I used the wrong wording its Difficult terrain. Just under the part about movement.


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Skystarlit1 wrote:


You continuing to post races and classes with inherit movement boosts isn't helping your argument. How bout you bring up quicklings next?

I literally brought up halflings. Also, "clases and races with inherit movement boosts" is exactly why elfs move more now. Just because it did not used to be that way in a certain edition does not mean it can't change. Halflings being nimbler than dwarves and elves being nimbler than humans make perfect sense with Golarion 's lore


Skystarlit1 wrote:


Dude he's reaching farther and farther afield for his examples. We are taking about a CORE race, not some insignificant construct or Fey creature most players aren't even aware of...
.

The moon has called. A goal post just landed there, they think it is yours.


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I'm not sure how many of you have tried actually running the Doomsday Dawn material yet, but I'm having extremely positive results in my local community and with my group. We are a fairly isolated community on a military base in Okinawa. Up until the playtest 5e was the only D20 system that was ran here.

The local community center is setting up to run the 2e Pathfinder playtest with as many tables as they can fill with new players.

My current group has also found the changes to be incredibly friendly to new players, it's actually possible to explain the game and play with new people now. My group had recently started to hate the rocket tag the 1e becomes and the fact that without an experienced DM a single optimizer can ruin the fun for a whole group. My group right now is a single power gamer, a rp guy who doesn't optimize, a kind of optimized experienced player and a brand new player. I've had much less trouble bringing my new player up to speed. There's some weird interactions and some polish needed still, but nothing to justify near the amount of complaining that I am seeing.

Some of you need to step back and play the game with your players before you rag on the system, keeping in mind that they rolled out the most extreme changes with the intent they be scaled back if they didn't work. They want your opinion having played the material, not theory-crafted the material into oblivion.

The change is about attracting new players to keep the game going, if they just keep the pissed off at 4e then eventually they won't have players any more. The 1e ruleset turned a lot of first time players off.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Skystarlit1 wrote:


You continuing to post races and classes with inherit movement boosts isn't helping your argument. How bout you bring up quicklings next?
I literally brought up halflings. Also, "clases and races with inherit movement boosts" is exactly why elfs move more now. Just because it did not used to be that way in a certain edition does not mean it can't change. Halflings being nimbler than dwarves and elves being nimbler than humans make perfect sense with Golarion 's lore

Oh, yes difficult terrain is in PF1. Sry, getting very late..going to look that up tomorrow. Getting way too sleepy.

Yes I see that gustavo iglesias, but my brain is not up to continuing to argue tonight. We can restart this debate tomorrow if you like, but I still say Dwarves shouldn't be that slow and/or Halflings that fast... Who knows, maybe it'll make more sense in the morning.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Syndrous wrote:

I'm not sure how many of you have tried actually running the Doomsday Dawn material yet, but I'm having extremely positive results in my local community and with my group. We are a fairly isolated community on a military base in Okinawa. Up until the playtest 5e was the only D20 system that was ran here.

The local community center is setting up to run the 2e Pathfinder playtest with as many tables as they can fill with new players.

My current group has also found the changes to be incredibly friendly to new players, it's actually possible to explain the game and play with new people now. My group had recently started to hate the rocket tag the 1e becomes and the fact that without an experienced DM a single optimizer can ruin the fun for a whole group. My group right now is a single power gamer, a rp guy who doesn't optimize, a kind of optimized experienced player and a brand new player. I've had much less trouble bringing my new player up to speed. There's some weird interactions and some polish needed still, but nothing to justify near the amount of complaining that I am seeing.

Some of you need to step back and play the game with your players before you rag on the system, keeping in mind that they rolled out the most extreme changes with the intent they be scaled back if they didn't work. They want your opinion having played the material, not theory-crafted the material into oblivion.

The change is about attracting new players to keep the game going, if they just keep the pissed off at 4e then eventually they won't have players any more. The 1e ruleset turned a lot of first time players off.

I love everything about this post, including the "isolated on Okinawa" part. You might be isolated, but those beaches! The sun! The kaiju!

On a more serious note, I think this is what PF2 is supposed to be about, getting in people who were driven away by PF1s complexity, tendency to reward powergaming and sheer amount of trap options which you can't avoid without system mastery.


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Skystarlit1 wrote:


Yes I see that gustavo iglesias, but my brain is not up to continuing to argue tonight. We can restart this debate tomorrow if you like, but I still say Dwarves shouldn't be that slow and/or Halflings that fast... Who knows, maybe it'll make more sense in the morning.

Fine. Tomorrow, with a fresh start, try to look at it. Dwarves can move faster in this edition. Don't just look at the numbers, look at how that numbers interact with the system. Yes, 20 feet is a small number, but you have THREE actions now.


CorvusMask wrote:

There is definitely people being overly defensive, but I'm still confused how you see majority of complaints having been reasonable ._. Like, maybe it's just because I've been reading too many of the threads, but there has been lot of vitriol, even swearing, hyperbole, "Paizo are liars" "Paizo doesn't care about us" etc type of comments going on. Or maybe the few individual ones are just sticking in my mind best so it feels worse than it actually is. Still, considering that Vic made sticky thread on how to give polite feedback, I feel like I'm not wrong about there having been lot of vitriol.

But yeah, its definitely uncalled for to attack people for having negative feelings about the game just as it would be other way around. And there are few threads where everyone has managed to stay reasonable, Deadmanwalking's thread is one of those I haven't seen anyone being hyperbolic.

(on side note, staying with 1e is definitely valid option. Heck, I'm not going to convert 1e APs into 2e, I'm planning to run eventually all of them in 1e)

They did not lie so much as form what they said some of us thought we were get something different than what we did. Example: One of the designers talked about how they planned to make it so base line was hitting 50% of the time, but fighter would be better than that.

The statement is true. I went and built a fighter then checked attack vs AC. My character was hitting round 75% on average. 55% on the low end and 80% of the high end with just the base build. Add in buffs and flaking and that is up to the 95% I was expecting. The reason I was expecting 95% base to hit on the first attack is that PF1 fighters can do this pass the low levels.

The game designers statement was true, but with the background in PF1 I had and they know I had the statement appeared to be misleading at first. Then I got to thinking, They have been working on this new system for months, so could have overlooked how it would appear to someone coming streight from PF1.


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Skystarlit1 wrote:
He probably got insulted because it hit too close to home for him. Some people just don't want to bother actually learning anything complicated I guess.

2/5. Troll better.


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I would have loved to have seen an edition that embraced wounds/vigor, and armor as DR as core.

It would have doubled down on the "dnd for grown-ups" thing that (imo) drew so many of us to PF after the 4e debacle.

The ability to differentiate fast but squishy opponents, from slow but tough targets would have really opened up the design space, while simultaneously addressing some of the "bounded accuracy" concepts that seem to be all the rage.

Goblin lucks out and crits your level 15 character? say hello to wnd(essentially CON) dmg!


Dairian wrote:

I would have loved to have seen an edition that embraced wounds/vigor, and armor as DR as core.

It would have doubled down on the "dnd for grown-ups" thing that (imo) drew so many of us to PF after the 4e debacle.

The ability to differentiate fast but squishy opponents, from slow but tough targets would have really opened up the design space, while simultaneously addressing some of the "bounded accuracy" concepts that seem to be all the rage.

Goblin lucks out and crits your level 15 character? say hello to wnd(essentially CON) dmg!

How does the goblin crit your lvl 15 character? Even unarmored a lvl 15 character trained in unarmored has an AC of 26 which makes the goblin just hit critically on a 20, if you were any sliver of armor -> no can do.

DR as Armor is not really how armor works though, DR when armor gets hit maybe, in PF if armor is hit DR = DMG. If you wear a fullplate and I stab you in the armpit or the throat your DR is 0 -> as applied in the system.

A character with 27 armor will get hit by a goblin on a 20 but never will he be critted.

Wounds and vigor including armor as DR then need body zones and the like which is really complicated.


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Skystarlit1 wrote:

Yah, I'm thinking your thinking right on that one.
A fully armored Dwarf moving 10ft an actin just sounds ridiculous, even 15 isn't much better. I think your right on just ignoring movement penalties, err... Speed reductions for Dwarfs.

A fully armoured dwarf moving downhill can get up quite some momentum!


Yossarian wrote:
Skystarlit1 wrote:

Yah, I'm thinking your thinking right on that one.
A fully armored Dwarf moving 10ft an actin just sounds ridiculous, even 15 isn't much better. I think your right on just ignoring movement penalties, err... Speed reductions for Dwarfs.

A fully armoured dwarf moving downhill can get up quite some momentum!

Ha, yeah, there could be some dwarven feat that lets you tumble like a little boulder and knock enemies prone, like that chubby kid in the movie, Hook.


vestris wrote:
Dairian wrote:

I would have loved to have seen an edition that embraced wounds/vigor, and armor as DR as core.

It would have doubled down on the "dnd for grown-ups" thing that (imo) drew so many of us to PF after the 4e debacle.

The ability to differentiate fast but squishy opponents, from slow but tough targets would have really opened up the design space, while simultaneously addressing some of the "bounded accuracy" concepts that seem to be all the rage.

Goblin lucks out and crits your level 15 character? say hello to wnd(essentially CON) dmg!

How does the goblin crit your lvl 15 character? Even unarmored a lvl 15 character trained in unarmored has an AC of 26 which makes the goblin just hit critically on a 20, if you were any sliver of armor -> no can do.

DR as Armor is not really how armor works though, DR when armor gets hit maybe, in PF if armor is hit DR = DMG. If you wear a fullplate and I stab you in the armpit or the throat your DR is 0 -> as applied in the system.

A character with 27 armor will get hit by a goblin on a 20 but never will he be critted.

Wounds and vigor including armor as DR then need body zones and the like which is really complicated.

If you are aiming for the throat or some other small exposed area you are taking a -8 called shot penalty to hit in order to avoid the DR. Seems fine to me


Greylurker wrote:
vestris wrote:
Dairian wrote:

I would have loved to have seen an edition that embraced wounds/vigor, and armor as DR as core.

It would have doubled down on the "dnd for grown-ups" thing that (imo) drew so many of us to PF after the 4e debacle.

The ability to differentiate fast but squishy opponents, from slow but tough targets would have really opened up the design space, while simultaneously addressing some of the "bounded accuracy" concepts that seem to be all the rage.

Goblin lucks out and crits your level 15 character? say hello to wnd(essentially CON) dmg!

How does the goblin crit your lvl 15 character? Even unarmored a lvl 15 character trained in unarmored has an AC of 26 which makes the goblin just hit critically on a 20, if you were any sliver of armor -> no can do.

DR as Armor is not really how armor works though, DR when armor gets hit maybe, in PF if armor is hit DR = DMG. If you wear a fullplate and I stab you in the armpit or the throat your DR is 0 -> as applied in the system.

A character with 27 armor will get hit by a goblin on a 20 but never will he be critted.

Wounds and vigor including armor as DR then need body zones and the like which is really complicated.

If you are aiming for the throat or some other small exposed area you are taking a -8 called shot penalty to hit in order to avoid the DR. Seems fine to me

Though that runs into problems when a different type of armour which exposes more parts of the body, as the called shot wouldn't need to be so precise against the legs of a knight in a padded hauberk, but equally wouldn't be quite as lethal. (Though of course, a gorget provides a fair amount of protection for the threat, and the arming doublet and potentially mail would do the same for the armpit). It's not that there aren't games using armour as DR and with protection that sometimes only covers part of the body with consequences for striking that - I've been a Runequest player since the 1970s, and that does it - it's just that the systems are fundamentally different in ways that would mean a massive rewrite of D&D.


Cyouni wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Rogue has +4 to his roll. He's at Expert and that's (Level +1) bonus. Now I actually went and looked at Stealth feats a day or two and I really couldn't find any boost to it. Nothing like a +2-3. And by level 3, you don't have any items to boost it either thanks to level gating. However let's give him the benifet of the doubt and say he or she has as high Dex as they can get away with. That'd be 18 I'm assuming. So grand total is 7.

Now let's take those NPCs, make them fighters. Because there's no Warrior yet.

Fighter is Expert in Perception and he's level 2. So that means he's at +3 for his Perception bonus by default. Now lets say this one knows what's up and knows how to do his job better, so Wis 12. And if we really want to complete that full transfer, there's 2 Guards.

So that Halfling Rogue has a +7 to beat two +4 rolls. Oh and is instantly seen if there's no cover so I hope the GM didn't just give you a straight hallway to try and sneak up to these guys.

Now I could be wrong. I'm willing to be wrong. It's a new system, I'm using questions like this to help test my own

I'm willing to actually comment on this. Remember that it's against Perception DC, so a single roll of +7 vs DC 14 for the two guards. If he's using Assurance, it'd get him a roll of 15, impossible to fail.

Few issues. At least how I read them, new system could be wrong.

1) I don't see where the Perception DC itself is.
2) If it's pulled from that DC chart, that 14 can be much higher.
3) This also hinges on the DM not deciding to roll for Perception checks at all.
4) Due to both 2 and 3, Assurance is not an instant success.


Bluenose wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
vestris wrote:
Dairian wrote:

I would have loved to have seen an edition that embraced wounds/vigor, and armor as DR as core.

It would have doubled down on the "dnd for grown-ups" thing that (imo) drew so many of us to PF after the 4e debacle.

The ability to differentiate fast but squishy opponents, from slow but tough targets would have really opened up the design space, while simultaneously addressing some of the "bounded accuracy" concepts that seem to be all the rage.

Goblin lucks out and crits your level 15 character? say hello to wnd(essentially CON) dmg!

How does the goblin crit your lvl 15 character? Even unarmored a lvl 15 character trained in unarmored has an AC of 26 which makes the goblin just hit critically on a 20, if you were any sliver of armor -> no can do.

DR as Armor is not really how armor works though, DR when armor gets hit maybe, in PF if armor is hit DR = DMG. If you wear a fullplate and I stab you in the armpit or the throat your DR is 0 -> as applied in the system.

A character with 27 armor will get hit by a goblin on a 20 but never will he be critted.

Wounds and vigor including armor as DR then need body zones and the like which is really complicated.

If you are aiming for the throat or some other small exposed area you are taking a -8 called shot penalty to hit in order to avoid the DR. Seems fine to me
Though that runs into problems when a different type of armour which exposes more parts of the body, as the called shot wouldn't need to be so precise against the legs of a knight in a padded hauberk, but equally wouldn't be quite as lethal. (Though of course, a gorget provides a fair amount of protection for the threat, and the arming doublet and potentially mail would do the same for the armpit). It's not that there aren't games using armour as DR and with protection that sometimes only covers part of the body with consequences for striking that - I've been a Runequest player since the...

not really. Ultimate Combat has a whole bit on Called Shots. Penalties range from -2 to -10 depending on the target. Works just fine. It helps that Ultimate Equipment gives a Picture and Description for each type of armor if you want to get really fiddly about it. But really it's just a simple "yeah ok -5 to hit that and if you do you bypass his armor DR"


Greylurker wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
vestris wrote:
Dairian wrote:

I would have loved to have seen an edition that embraced wounds/vigor, and armor as DR as core.

It would have doubled down on the "dnd for grown-ups" thing that (imo) drew so many of us to PF after the 4e debacle.

The ability to differentiate fast but squishy opponents, from slow but tough targets would have really opened up the design space, while simultaneously addressing some of the "bounded accuracy" concepts that seem to be all the rage.

Goblin lucks out and crits your level 15 character? say hello to wnd(essentially CON) dmg!

How does the goblin crit your lvl 15 character? Even unarmored a lvl 15 character trained in unarmored has an AC of 26 which makes the goblin just hit critically on a 20, if you were any sliver of armor -> no can do.

DR as Armor is not really how armor works though, DR when armor gets hit maybe, in PF if armor is hit DR = DMG. If you wear a fullplate and I stab you in the armpit or the throat your DR is 0 -> as applied in the system.

A character with 27 armor will get hit by a goblin on a 20 but never will he be critted.

Wounds and vigor including armor as DR then need body zones and the like which is really complicated.

If you are aiming for the throat or some other small exposed area you are taking a -8 called shot penalty to hit in order to avoid the DR. Seems fine to me
Though that runs into problems when a different type of armour which exposes more parts of the body, as the called shot wouldn't need to be so precise against the legs of a knight in a padded hauberk, but equally wouldn't be quite as lethal. (Though of course, a gorget provides a fair amount of protection for the threat, and the arming doublet and potentially mail would do the same for the armpit). It's not that there aren't games using armour as DR and with protection that sometimes only covers part of the body with consequences for striking that - I've been a
...

But that is already how it works. If the target wears a leather armor you get a penalty of 2 to hit and if you don't DR equals full reduction. Sure you could say you want a variety in damage reduction based on the material/armorstyle. But then you could just make weapons reduce the armor class for certain types. It just spins stuff around which is unnecessary or changes the game fundamentally without a real benefit.

Stuff like that belongs in the optional rule space.


Yossarian wrote:
Skystarlit1 wrote:

Yah, I'm thinking your thinking right on that one.
A fully armored Dwarf moving 10ft an actin just sounds ridiculous, even 15 isn't much better. I think your right on just ignoring movement penalties, err... Speed reductions for Dwarfs.

A fully armoured dwarf moving downhill can get up quite some momentum!

I just want to stop for a second and let you know i appreciate this post.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Rogue has +4 to his roll. He's at Expert and that's (Level +1) bonus. Now I actually went and looked at Stealth feats a day or two and I really couldn't find any boost to it. Nothing like a +2-3. And by level 3, you don't have any items to boost it either thanks to level gating. However let's give him the benifet of the doubt and say he or she has as high Dex as they can get away with. That'd be 18 I'm assuming. So grand total is 7.

Now let's take those NPCs, make them fighters. Because there's no Warrior yet.

Fighter is Expert in Perception and he's level 2. So that means he's at +3 for his Perception bonus by default. Now lets say this one knows what's up and knows how to do his job better, so Wis 12. And if we really want to complete that full transfer, there's 2 Guards.

So that Halfling Rogue has a +7 to beat two +4 rolls. Oh and is instantly seen if there's no cover so I hope the GM didn't just give you a straight hallway to try and sneak up to these guys.

Now I could be wrong. I'm willing to be wrong. It's a new system, I'm using questions like this to help test my own

I'm willing to actually comment on this. Remember that it's against Perception DC, so a single roll of +7 vs DC 14 for the two guards. If he's using Assurance, it'd get him a roll of 15, impossible to fail.

Few issues. At least how I read them, new system could be wrong.

1) I don't see where the Perception DC itself is.
2) If it's pulled from that DC chart, that 14 can be much higher.
3) This also hinges on the DM not deciding to roll for Perception checks at all.
4) Due to both 2 and 3, Assurance is not an instant success.

I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for but generally Perception is passive and hide/sneak tries to beat the passive DC of 10 plus perception. This is stated or implied in the stealth skill and in perception on pg 301.


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vestris wrote:
Dairian wrote:

I would have loved to have seen an edition that embraced wounds/vigor, and armor as DR as core.

It would have doubled down on the "dnd for grown-ups" thing that (imo) drew so many of us to PF after the 4e debacle.

The ability to differentiate fast but squishy opponents, from slow but tough targets would have really opened up the design space, while simultaneously addressing some of the "bounded accuracy" concepts that seem to be all the rage.

Goblin lucks out and crits your level 15 character? say hello to wnd(essentially CON) dmg!

How does the goblin crit your lvl 15 character? Even unarmored a lvl 15 character trained in unarmored has an AC of 26 which makes the goblin just hit critically on a 20, if you were any sliver of armor -> no can do.

DR as Armor is not really how armor works though, DR when armor gets hit maybe, in PF if armor is hit DR = DMG. If you wear a fullplate and I stab you in the armpit or the throat your DR is 0 -> as applied in the system.

A character with 27 armor will get hit by a goblin on a 20 but never will he be critted.

Wounds and vigor including armor as DR then need body zones and the like which is really complicated.

Well the great thing about goblins is there are always a bunch of them, so ONE is bound to roll that 20...

Also in Vitality/wnds systems ac (called defense) is much lower, as armor adds to DR, not AC.

I envision a L15 fighter with an Def(AC) of around 19 (10+half bab+dex)

Plus there are combat maneuvers, dog pile on the fighter, grapple him, hold him helpless, and stab, stab, stab, until something gets through...

Admittedly, for this sort of system to really work, a lot of things need tuning, but that can be said of any new system

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