Alchemist is too weak as a damage dealer


Classes


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I tried to play a damage dealer Alchemist based on mutagen, but found it too weak.
The bestial mutagen seems to be not stack with any magic weapon potent (HANDWRAPS OF MIGHTY FISTS), and there's no any ability to gain extra attack or bonus.
Does it mean that Alchemist can only be a mixture of weak damage dealer and weak controler?


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In general alchemist is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest class atm.

He has a tiny pool to juggle magic items, infusions, bombs, mutagens, and once the pool is empty (which happens really fast) he's left being a commoner with 0 things to do (inside and outside of combat).

Grand Lodge

shroudb wrote:

In general alchemist is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest class atm.

He has a tiny pool to juggle magic items, infusions, bombs, mutagens, and once the pool is empty (which happens really fast) he's left being a commoner with 0 things to do (inside and outside of combat).

Well, he can overspend the resonance to do more stuff, but that's not a given.


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Maxim Nikolaev wrote:
shroudb wrote:

In general alchemist is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest class atm.

He has a tiny pool to juggle magic items, infusions, bombs, mutagens, and once the pool is empty (which happens really fast) he's left being a commoner with 0 things to do (inside and outside of combat).

Well, he can overspend the resonance to do more stuff, but that's not a given.

i hope you were being sarcastic. While technically correct, I hope our amazing pool of level+int for everything you can ever do including your equipment and magical items and potions and wand charges and whatever, gets retconned to oblivion.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, massively underwhelmed by alchemist right now, which is sad as they were one of my favorite classes in 1e. Although admittedly I am glad to see them move away from the role of "party buffer who offloads the action economy to the rest of the party". :P

But the whole Resonance point thing is bad. Bad bad bad. No other class has to spend Resonance points to power their class features. And no other class lacks an at-will class feature. Alchemists were supposed to be the best at magic items; instead they are ironically the worst. Every magic item an alchemist uses expends a use of their primary class feature. :(


Perhaps changing to spell points, or allowing you to make a specific number of alchemical items for free each day which expire as normal?

Example:
Advanced Alchemy
You may produce a number of alchemical items for free each day, these items do not cost resonance for you to use but clearly have no gold value and may not be sold or used by others. You may use these items, such as elixers, on another player. You have a pool of resources available each day equal to your level plus your intelligence modifier, each item you produce in this manner costs two points if it is one item level higher than your character level, one point if it is the same level as your character, and half a point if it is at least one level lower. Items with the bomb trait gain levels towards this effect when modified by bomb feats such as smoke bomb, as listed in their description, and may be produced at a higher level for greater effect as noted under your Empowered Bombs class feature.

I forgot the name of the class ability that makes bombs more powerful, replace empowered bombs as needed. The idea is that you can make progressively more and stronger items for free each day, all up front, without resonance cost. Your bomb feats can stack because they now require the bomb to add up to your level in value, smoking is 1 level and sticky is 1 level so you may or may not be able to empower it fully and still get as many. Later on you might see 3/level or 4/level of particularly weak items that are 5+ levels below you. You might get a feat which increases your effective alchemist level for the purposes of advanced alchemy, making everything cheaper, or only increases the pool of resource points it provides without affecting the level. Eventually, getting two dozen fully empowered sticky bombs will easy and come with a good dozen elixers as well.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Star5490 wrote:

I tried to play a damage dealer Alchemist based on mutagen, but found it too weak.

The bestial mutagen seems to be not stack with any magic weapon potent (HANDWRAPS OF MIGHTY FISTS), and there's no any ability to gain extra attack or bonus.
Does it mean that Alchemist can only be a mixture of weak damage dealer and weak controler?

I disagree here. As a GM, I always that the Alchemist class was a bit OP with ability to hit on a TAC,, they are one of the most consistent hitters in the game. Also, there is nothing like wasting an entire mob with a well placed explosive bomb and then leaving other characters nothing to do in some cases.

I think the intent here is to strike a balance. further, the ability to hamper, cause persistent damage, or render an opponent flat footed with different types of bombs creates a lot of diversity and give the alchemist a great range of flavorful and meaningful attacks. It's not just about dishing out high damage. I like the changes.


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Eliphas Levi wrote:
Star5490 wrote:

I tried to play a damage dealer Alchemist based on mutagen, but found it too weak.

The bestial mutagen seems to be not stack with any magic weapon potent (HANDWRAPS OF MIGHTY FISTS), and there's no any ability to gain extra attack or bonus.
Does it mean that Alchemist can only be a mixture of weak damage dealer and weak controler?

I disagree here. As a GM, I always that the Alchemist class was a bit OP with ability to hit on a TAC,, they are one of the most consistent hitters in the game. Also, there is nothing like wasting an entire mob with a well placed explosive bomb and then leaving other characters nothing to do in some cases.

I think the intent here is to strike a balance. further, the ability to hamper, cause persistent damage, or render an opponent flat footed with different types of bombs creates a lot of diversity and give the alchemist a great range of flavorful and meaningful attacks. It's not just about dishing out high damage. I like the changes.

As someone that tends to play Support-Bomber, I don't like that my combat style eats into my party role. Or my party role eats into my combat style.

I think the changes are going to really pigeon hole Alchemists into focusing on 1 thing only out of fear of eating into their Resonance.

Also and this seems to be me, never felt like I did damage. Oh I HIT a lot but it never seemed to be huge damage. But yeah Frost Bombs+Tanglefoot Bomb never gets old.


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I think alchemists are going to wind up needing some kind of alchemy pool that is separate from the resonance pool. It is pretty bad for any class that looks at a magic item and has to math out if wearing it is worth two or more charges of their main class power.


While it does suck they do get a decent conversion of 1RP to 2 items each morning. Hopefully there is someway to increase batch size that I have not found yet.
and these aren't too terrible..

One thing I have really noticed about this class is that.. it really feels like up front damage is not their forte at all..

they seem to be heavy DOT style.. with the way poisons work, and persistent damage. So many abilities, feats, and alchemical items have presitent damage riders.

at level 11 Concentrated Splash, powerful Alchemy, and Sticky bomb
4x the bomb damage. + (8+int) +the status effect with Class lv dc. on hit.
Then Persistent damage equal the the above, sans side effect.

There is some weird wording for concentrated Splash and Expanded Splash that might allow double INT damage as well.
but well, lv 11 is pretty high.

so using it on say.. Acid? you can get some damage rolling. Acid is nothing but Presitent damage.. so i'm actually not sure if it does an initial hit then persistent after. or only at the end of your turn.. (see below)
but if you spend 1 round to throw an Acid and a Alchemist fire. both empowered. that is pretty rough damage over time. Granted damage over time is... not sure how useful yet. Haven't played enough of this. But it would take them some checks and some actions to fix it. which would be denying them turns that your allies can do.

From "end your turn" section.pg 305
"If you have a persistent damage condition, you take the
damage at this point. You also attempt any saves for your
afflictions at this time."


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Eliphas Levi wrote:
Star5490 wrote:

I tried to play a damage dealer Alchemist based on mutagen, but found it too weak.

The bestial mutagen seems to be not stack with any magic weapon potent (HANDWRAPS OF MIGHTY FISTS), and there's no any ability to gain extra attack or bonus.
Does it mean that Alchemist can only be a mixture of weak damage dealer and weak controler?

I disagree here. As a GM, I always that the Alchemist class was a bit OP with ability to hit on a TAC,, they are one of the most consistent hitters in the game. Also, there is nothing like wasting an entire mob with a well placed explosive bomb and then leaving other characters nothing to do in some cases.

I think the intent here is to strike a balance. further, the ability to hamper, cause persistent damage, or render an opponent flat footed with different types of bombs creates a lot of diversity and give the alchemist a great range of flavorful and meaningful attacks. It's not just about dishing out high damage. I like the changes.

thing is, debilitating bomb only works off quick alchemy.

that means 1bomb/rp and 1 bomb/round

as an example, at level 7, an alchemist will have 11 RP

let's say 2 of them are invested in regular items.

that means 9 left.

just having 2 for healing pots and another 2 for another type of elixir, say darkvision (4+4 in total, barely enough to have 1 for each party member as an example, and they still cost RP for the party members), means that now you have a whooping 5 bombs to throw the whole day. and that is if you dont need an emergency potion or extract.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Alchemists should replace Empower Bombs with Empower Alchemy. Does the same thing for bombs, if you want, but could be applied to poison instead to make that more viable, or to mutagen to make that more viable. Just a resonable boost that also gives "alchemy points" that can be spent on your focus, at a level much earlier than 9th.

Being pigeon-holed into bombs, and then getting minimal support for them, isn't helping my interest in this class.


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Shane LeRose wrote:

Alchemists should replace Empower Bombs with Empower Alchemy. Does the same thing for bombs, if you want, but could be applied to poison instead to make that more viable, or to mutagen to make that more viable. Just a resonable boost that also gives "alchemy points" that can be spent on your focus, at a level much earlier than 9th.

Being pigeon-holed into bombs, and then getting minimal support for them, isn't helping my interest in this class.

Thats a good suggestion


Well bombs are also all 1st level, while the Poisons and Mutagens have higher level versions. So not sure how that would interact if it could work on things beyond bombs, and beyond 1st level.


Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Well bombs are also all 1st level, while the Poisons and Mutagens have higher level versions. So not sure how that would interact if it could work on things beyond bombs, and beyond 1st level.

they can make it additive:

Empowered Alchemy:
at level 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19 add a +1d6 to the damage of your bombs and poisons, and increase the duration of non-poison alchemical items by 1 round, minute or hour (same time unit as the original item). This only works for infused items you make with Advanced or Quick alchemy.


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I think the biggest change needed for alchemists would be the ability for most of their ability to work on things not made via their alch or quick alch ability.
as it is, crafting extra ones is pointless for most bombs

also quick alchemy needs to be described how it interacts with effects caused by the now inert item.
i.e.
does poison still hurt
does persistent damage disappear
does the smoke from a smoke bomb or smoke stick disappear?

its written in a way to imply that any effects persist and just the actual item invalidates..
but its not properly state


So bombs are all level 1 so it works well enough as is for them.

Looking at Antiplague for elixirs it has four different grades, could say it auto upgrades as you increase the Empowered Bombs/Alchemy but I don't think you would need to spend any more resources on Quick/Advanced Alchemy. Could maybe have Empowered Alchemy have its cost in gold and time based off the standard, but have the actual result be upgraded to the current tier of the item?

Poisons are definitely not just level 1, so the Empowered Bomb feature becoming Empowered Alchemy would need to remove the level 1 clause.

I don't think adding 1d6 per tier would make sense in general, most of these bombs and poisons don't really use d6s anyway.

Also man these early poisons are not combat use, not with a 10 minute onset. At least not the Ingested ones.

Maybe have it add an extra die of damage to poisons at each tier based off the original level of the poison. So a level 1 or 2 poison would gain a die at 3rd, then again at 7th, etc. While a 6th level poison would get its first extra die at 7th.

Not sure if this would actually be necessary because Poisons do have levels beyond 1 and do get extra dice as you use higher poisons. Empowered Alchemy would probably only be necessary for Poisons when crafting during downtime instead of using a class feature.

Empower Alchemy can do the current thing for Bombs, and also extend the duration to x2, x3, x4 per tier. Though again that should probably depend on the level of the item to be Empowered. Like a level 6 Elixir, or Poison, should only have the duration doubled at 7th rather than tripled.


Ryuujin-sama wrote:

So bombs are all level 1 so it works well enough as is for them.

Looking at Antiplague for elixirs it has four different grades, could say it auto upgrades as you increase the Empowered Bombs/Alchemy but I don't think you would need to spend any more resources on Quick/Advanced Alchemy. Could maybe have Empowered Alchemy have its cost in gold and time based off the standard, but have the actual result be upgraded to the current tier of the item?

Poisons are definitely not just level 1, so the Empowered Bomb feature becoming Empowered Alchemy would need to remove the level 1 clause.

I don't think adding 1d6 per tier would make sense in general, most of these bombs and poisons don't really use d6s anyway.

Also man these early poisons are not combat use, not with a 10 minute onset. At least not the Ingested ones.

Maybe have it add an extra die of damage to poisons at each tier based off the original level of the poison. So a level 1 or 2 poison would gain a die at 3rd, then again at 7th, etc. While a 6th level poison would get its first extra die at 7th.

Not sure if this would actually be necessary because Poisons do have levels beyond 1 and do get extra dice as you use higher poisons. Empowered Alchemy would probably only be necessary for Poisons when crafting during downtime instead of using a class feature.

Empower Alchemy can do the current thing for Bombs, and also extend the duration to x2, x3, x4 per tier. Though again that should probably depend on the level of the item to be Empowered. Like a level 6 Elixir, or Poison, should only have the duration doubled at 7th rather than tripled.

no level clauses would be needed, all poisons in the game deal some form of xdx damage/round (all but 2 i think?)

so, using as an example:
black adder poison (lvl2 poison) normally deals:
Stage 1 1d6 poison damage (1 round);
Stage 2 1d8 poison damage (1 round); Stage 3 1d12 poison
damage (1 round)

a 3 level alchemist adds +1d6 to each stage. A 7 would add 2 and etc

that stays consistent with later level poisons, so the same 7th level alchemist that adds 2d6 to black adders poison, would add equally 2d6 to

GIANT WASP VENOM(lvl6 poison) which normally deals:
Stage 1 1d8 poison damage and sluggish 1
(1 round); Stage 2 1d12 poison damage and sluggish 2 (1 round);
Stage 3 2d8 poison and sluggish 2 (1 round)

the same is true for duration increases as well:

you mention antiplague:
that has 3 versions, and all 3 last 24h. With the proposed ability, a level 3 alchemist would make it last 25h and a level 7 would make it last 26h

the above example is somewhat a fringe case because it's one of the few items that lasts a full day. Most lasts either minutes, or some 10 level stuff last 8h (which when you would craft them would last 12, and at 11th level they would last 13h)

using more common elixirs like bomber eye (lasts 1 min) would mean it would last 2 minutes for the level 3 alchemist and 3 minutes for the level 7. While bravo brew which normally lasts 1h would last 2 and then 3 hours
and etc

in all of those cases, the level of the item actually stays the same.

thikn of Empower alchemy like metamagic effects on your items.


Zwordsman wrote:

at level 11 Concentrated Splash, powerful Alchemy, and Sticky bomb

4x the bomb damage. + (8+int) +the status effect with Class lv dc. on hit.
Then Persistent damage equal the the above, sans side effect.

There is some weird wording for concentrated Splash and Expanded Splash that might allow double INT damage as well.
but well, lv 11 is pretty high.

I think there's something wrong here.

The persistent damage is only equal to the splash damage so it's 1+Int, then affected by empower bombs and increases to 4+4*Int, not "equal to the above".
The Expanded Splash can only increase the splash damage from 1+Int to 2+Int with aoe, so there isn't any double Int damage.


Zwordsman wrote:


at level 11 Concentrated Splash, powerful Alchemy, and Sticky bomb
4x the bomb damage. + (8+int) +the status effect with Class lv dc. on hit.
Then Persistent damage equal the the above, sans side effect.

There is some weird wording for concentrated Splash and Expanded Splash that might allow double INT damage as well.
but well, lv 11 is pretty high.

all this math is actually wrong:

sor starters:
NO Debilitating sticky bomb (both are free actions triggered by Quick alchemy, and you only get 1 free action/trigger)

also, you CAN'T throw 2 sticky bombs in a round since you need level 13 for double Quick alchemy and sticky bomb is Quick alchemy triggered.

Damage wise:

calculated spalsh says:

Quote:

you can choose for the bomb’s splash damage to deal extra damage equal to your

Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) instead of the normal amount.

so, that makes the bomb deal 4x +int splash

expanded slash says:

Quote:

When you throw an alchemical bomb with the splash trait that

you have created, the splash damage is increased to 2 plus your
Intelligence modifier, and it damages every creature within
10 feet of the target.

so, the damage now is:

4x +(2+int splash)

Sticky bomb makes the target get as much persistent as splash (so 2+int)

Plus, there's no reason to use sticky bomb with either acid or fire:

Quote:


"You can be simultaneously affected by multiple
persistent damage conditions so long as they have different
damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent
damage condition with the same damage type, the higher
amount of damage overrides the lower amount."

acid's base damage will be 4d4 peristent (average 10) your splash would be 7-8 depending if you have a potent +int item

alchemist fire is already 4d8+4 persistent, so sticky will just add ~3 damage


Sticky Bomb: Frequency once per round.
So there's no way to use two sticky bombs in one round.


man... just went through the bestiary for another thread, and noticed that the average simple strike of level 12 monsters is in the range of 30-35 damage...

how sad that our consumable uses, with full feats on them, is just about the same as a strike of that level... (30) (alchemist fire with full bomb feats should be like 4d8+12...)


a simple 11 level barbarian with a +2 great sword could also deal 3d12+5rage+6strength=average 30 damage on one hit.
Alchemist is so poor please save him.


Star5490 wrote:

a simple 11 level barbarian with a +2 great sword could also deal 3d12+5rage+6strength=average 30 damage on one hit.

Alchemist is so poor please save him.

considering there's a very good chance that he'll have a +3 weapon (and probably with property runes as well on it) bringing it up to like 40 damage/hit without any rage powers...


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Remember that Persistent Damage of the same type doesn't stack. So throwing multiple Acid Flasks at the same target does nothing.


ahah. yeah that math is weird. I should never try posting at 3am.

but otherwise the concept is still there. Persistent damage of different types isn't terrible. just.. slow.
which i dont' really know how the speed of the game in this form.
i

I feel like tossing 1 bomb on specific targtets then switching to your weapon is probably how they are intending to play maybe.
Which is quite a shift from previous


Zwordsman wrote:

ahah. yeah that math is weird. I should never try posting at 3am.

but otherwise the concept is still there. Persistent damage of different types isn't terrible. just.. slow.
which i dont' really know how the speed of the game in this form.
i

I feel like tossing 1 bomb on specific targtets then switching to your weapon is probably how they are intending to play maybe.
Which is quite a shift from previous

well... a lvl12 acid flask deals 10 persistent damage/round, fire deals 4, and sticky will probably deal 7 at that level.

so, with 4 class feats* and 3 actions you need to spend 1.5RP (1 for sticky bomb, 0.5 for acid flask prepared in the morning) to deal 17normal+17 persistent to the target, plus another 14 splash to all the others (already calculated for main target)

from above, a single strike (1 action) of a barbarian will deal like 40 damage+ without draining him resources and without calculating class feats on it...

*you'd need at minimum: sticky bomb, quick bomber, calculated splash and expanded splash, but also probably precise and far lobber, for 6 feats just to be sure, so 12level min)

plus because you need both sticky and expanded, that means that you can't pick a lvl 12 class feat (both the above are the level 10 ones)

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
kaid wrote:
I think alchemists are going to wind up needing some kind of alchemy pool that is separate from the resonance pool. It is pretty bad for any class that looks at a magic item and has to math out if wearing it is worth two or more charges of their main class power.

Maybe they should just double it, but that may make other classes jealous. ..

What about Level + (Int + Dex) mods.
intelligently Infusing bombs with dexterous precision.


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I would probably be a lot more happy if Quick Alchemy didn't cost Resonance, since it is already using an Action in combat, and the Bombs at least don't really outshine Cantrips without a lot of feat investment.


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Eliphas Levi wrote:
kaid wrote:
I think alchemists are going to wind up needing some kind of alchemy pool that is separate from the resonance pool. It is pretty bad for any class that looks at a magic item and has to math out if wearing it is worth two or more charges of their main class power.

Maybe they should just double it, but that may make other classes jealous. ..

What about Level + (Int + Dex) mods.
intelligently Infusing bombs with dexterous precision.

most classes with a class pool (like spell pools and such) in the game gains 2 extra points when taking feats that use said pool

if we add +2RP to every class feat that requires Quick alchemy
(quick bomber, smoke bomb, enduring alchemy, debilitating bomb, delayed bomb, antitode, combine elixirs, powerful elixirs, etc)

that could help a lot.

even if 2/3 feats you'll pick up end up benefiting, at level 12 that's just 10 extra RP, WHICH IS STILL LESS THAN WHAT A LEVEL 12 NON-ALCHEMIST HAS at that level (well, 12-17 depending on stats)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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I played the 1st level pregen goblin alchemist in a playtest scenario at Gen Con. Here's what I noticed.

-there is nothing to attack with that doesn't have splash damage, so in PFS you had better hope you can get permission from your fellow players to slightly hurt them. My group was fine with it, but I could see players refusing to let you use your primary attack mode on "no PVP" grounds. In the playtest book you can control this at level 6 but that's 15 scenarios to play without it in PFS.

-No Int mod to damage makes the attacks pretty weak. I got fortunate and rolled well on my fire bomb damage most rounds, but I could see a string of 1s and 2s really being disheartening.

-Quick Alchemy could be great for utility, if any of the things you can make actually felt worth doing. I used it once during an exploration segment to give the rogue +1 to Perception. Whee. I made an acid bomb for the final boss encounter, but he died before I got to use it. The utility alchemy just isn't very impressive.

Maybe persistant damage is more useful as you level up? We fought a lot of enemies with 6 hp or so, and one with about 70-80(yes, at level 1, and it was the very first encounter we had - it was actually quite doable, but it was the barbarian hitting it for d12+8 at a time that killed it). I could see big persistent damage being a nice thing once enemies have decent hp - the save to stop it never gets easier, and I watched fellow PCs waste about 5 actions trying to stop one point of bleed because their d20s didn't cooperate.


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ryric wrote:

I played the 1st level pregen goblin alchemist in a playtest scenario at Gen Con. Here's what I noticed.

-there is nothing to attack with that doesn't have splash damage, so in PFS you had better hope you can get permission from your fellow players to slightly hurt them. My group was fine with it, but I could see players refusing to let you use your primary attack mode on "no PVP" grounds. In the playtest book you can control this at level 6 but that's 15 scenarios to play without it in PFS.

-No Int mod to damage makes the attacks pretty weak. I got fortunate and rolled well on my fire bomb damage most rounds, but I could see a string of 1s and 2s really being disheartening.

-Quick Alchemy could be great for utility, if any of the things you can make actually felt worth doing. I used it once during an exploration segment to give the rogue +1 to Perception. Whee. I made an acid bomb for the final boss encounter, but he died before I got to use it. The utility alchemy just isn't very impressive.

Maybe persistant damage is more useful as you level up? We fought a lot of enemies with 6 hp or so, and one with about 70-80(yes, at level 1, and it was the very first encounter we had - it was actually quite doable, but it was the barbarian hitting it for d12+8 at a time that killed it). I could see big persistent damage being a nice thing once enemies have decent hp - the save to stop it never gets easier, and I watched fellow PCs waste about 5 actions trying to stop one point of bleed because their d20s didn't cooperate.

persistent never gets big though:

you can't "aoe persistent" it's always only the target, and we're talking 10points of damage/round at level 12 or so with acid flasks, or 7 points of persistent with other bombs and sticky bomb if you spend literally ALL your class feats up to level 12 to do so...


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Eliphas Levi wrote:
kaid wrote:
I think alchemists are going to wind up needing some kind of alchemy pool that is separate from the resonance pool. It is pretty bad for any class that looks at a magic item and has to math out if wearing it is worth two or more charges of their main class power.

Maybe they should just double it, but that may make other classes jealous. ..

What about Level + (Int + Dex) mods.
intelligently Infusing bombs with dexterous precision.

You mean like how it used to be?

God the loss of Int to damage really feels like a poor choice.

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