Paladin Code!


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I love the new way of doing the paladin code and honestly feel like it will help in so many situations. But I do have one request going forward can we have either a different word or a stated definition for 'murder' I just feel like that one will still be used to cause a fall from killing something that might not have been directly hostile but still had to go.


That seems like the point where words would be called for until the situation is forced to violence by either the subject responding with violence against the paladin or the subject performing an action that required the paladin to act with violence else the paladin would have allowed harm to come to another by inaction.

Walking around and essentially liquidating wrongthinkers for futurecrime isn't classically 'good' behavior.


The problem is that Murder is a top Tenant meaning that you can't Murder someone even to save an innocent, just like you can't cast and evil spell to save innocents.

Shadow Lodge

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I feel like accidentally killing someone shouldn't count, but this will lead most Paladin's that are LG(the only kind I think we'll ever get despite the blog) to walk into rooms and ask for surrender first. Because you can't just rush in and attack the demon doing bad things to an innocent. If you do and kill them it is murder and you fall.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
I feel like accidentally killing someone shouldn't count, but this will lead most Paladin's that are LG(the only kind I think we'll ever get despite the blog) to walk into rooms and ask for surrender first. Because you can't just rush in and attack the demon doing bad things to an innocent. If you do and kill them it is murder and you fall.

If it's a demon it's not murder, just deportation.


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Commonly accepted definition of murder: Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought.

You can't kill one person without justification or valid excuse. Saving an innocent from imminent great bodily harm or equivalent is a classically accepted justification and valid excuse.

If someone isn't actively attempting great bodily harm or equivalent, then THEY are as yet an innocent party. Wrongthink and futurecrime are not justifications or valid excuses under classical understandings of good and just.


So only actively? So if the evil Archduke is planning on sacrificing a village to achieve lichdom but he hasn't gotten everything together yet so there isn't like a timeline just a sort of plan, he hasn't even picked a village yet he might use goblins so he is innocent then?


Talonhawke wrote:
So only actively? So if the evil Archduke is planning on sacrificing a village to achieve lichdom but he hasn't gotten everything together yet so there isn't like a timeline just a sort of plan, he hasn't even picked a village yet he might use goblins so he is innocent then?

You put him under arrest for treason, terrorism or whatever happens to be the official name of this violation

Shadow Lodge

Athaleon wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
I feel like accidentally killing someone shouldn't count, but this will lead most Paladin's that are LG(the only kind I think we'll ever get despite the blog) to walk into rooms and ask for surrender first. Because you can't just rush in and attack the demon doing bad things to an innocent. If you do and kill them it is murder and you fall.
If it's a demon it's not murder, just deportation.

Depends on if the setting hasn't changed in that rega d too, and if not it might have been *gated* in, not called or bound.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

And it would probably help if you can collect evidence that he is actually planning those things. If all he is doing is thinking about it, you probably don't have much of a case.


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Talonhawke wrote:
So only actively? So if the evil Archduke is planning on sacrificing a village to achieve lichdom but he hasn't gotten everything together yet so there isn't like a timeline just a sort of plan, he hasn't even picked a village yet he might use goblins so he is innocent then?

But what if he would back out of executing his plan because while he is power hungry when the time comes to perform the action he finds he simply isn't cruel enough to perform it? Then upon self reflection he decides that not being cruel is what he truly values and goes on to be a ruler that governs in a competent way that also minimizes cruelty, even if in a self serving manner. Only you murdered him for wrongthink and futurecrime...

I understand that in today's climate that 'preemptive justice' based on assumed 'futurecrime or guilt by association' is being peddled as moral righteousness, but such actions fall under the classical definitions of evil.

edit: also, standing by and letting a village of goblins be sacrificed would be in violation of the code. Racial guilt is another one of those things that while trendy is actually evil.


D@rK-SePHiRoTH- wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So only actively? So if the evil Archduke is planning on sacrificing a village to achieve lichdom but he hasn't gotten everything together yet so there isn't like a timeline just a sort of plan, he hasn't even picked a village yet he might use goblins so he is innocent then?
You put him under arrest for treason, terrorism or whatever happens to be the official name of this violation

What if either he is the highest law or there isn't a law against it?


N-Sphere wrote:


edit: also, standing by and letting a village of goblins be sacrificed would be in violation of the code. Racial guilt is another one of those things that while trendy is actually evil.

Sorry no Murder is at the top of the tenants and saving innocents is a lower one so no you can't Murder anyone for any reason without violating your code.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Talonhawke wrote:
Sorry no Murder is at the top of the tenants and saving innocents is a lower one so no you can't Murder anyone for any reason without violating your code.

Unless you've got a boarder named "Murder" renting a penthouse suite from you, I think the word you want here and elsewhere in this thread is "Tenet."

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