I meant side as in not using double slice for a Paladin. As for everything else, you have great points.
You haven't offended me at all. Sorry if it seems that way.
Even though it's not available at low levels, I wonder how many options that floating shield which doesn't require hands opens up for you. Six hardness isn't great, but if you make it a righteous ally it's a little sturdier.
Is Iomedae clearly the best option for Paladins just because Zeal (both the basic domain power and the fact that the advanced one gives 3 spell points)?
Is Iomedae clearly the best option for Paladins just because Zeal (both the basic domain power and the fact that the advanced one gives 3 spell points)?
Looks to be so, yes.
I'm of the opinion that Double Slice is not too good, but exactly as good as it's supposed to be. Compared to the other options, it actually does something helpful to your builds and has multiple tactical uses and is pretty much everything you want from a feat in PF2.
All other styles need to be buffed and leave Double Slice alone.
I'm not offended either, it just seemed as though you were jumping on the "you have to double slice to be competent" and from my analysis Double Slice is probably too good (I expect it will be nerfed) but also it closes off so many other Paladin avenues because you *really* need either a Shield or a Free Hand to take advantage of them.
The paladin feat that removes the [manipulate] trait is apparently also supposed to include casting and/or using lay on hands with an item in hand, at least according to what some people have heard as feedback from the devs.
For what that's worth.
Alternative Single Sword Paladin
01: Warded Touch
02: Hospitalier03: Weapon Ally
04: Domain (Zeal, if you can, you still want Zeal) (+1 Spell Point)
06: Channel Life (+1 Spell Point)
08: Advanced Domain (You are doing this for +3 Spell Points)10: Radiant Blade Spirit
The reason I put this here, despite needing to blow a reaction to use it, is because Retributive Strike isn't something you'll get much use out of normally. I don't like powers that revolve around the idea of your GM has to do something for it to happen. So I don't see losing a reaction here a big deal if it adds an extra +1d6 or so damage.
12: Aura of Faith
This is here because you'll be using Litany of Righteousness with this build a lot. This guarantees that you're dealing Good Damage to Evil Enemies at all times. So your Litany will always have damage to work off of.
14: Litany of Righteousness (+1 Spell Point)
16: Attack of Opportunity
18: Angelic Form
20: Radiant Blade Master (Keen is really good in this system)Note:
Assuming that you have a 20 Charisma by max level with this build (you should) you'll have 10-11 Spell Points by level 15. That isn't too shabby.-----
Damage-wise you're never going to be doing much here. Ideally you'll be dropping your Litany in a round when you can make 2 swings. Adding +5 Damage (minimum) to each swing, but that only works for 1 round. Aura of Faith ensures that you'll always have the good damage to trigger off of it though.
Weapon Surge is only good for one hit, so it is only good if you would otherwise be attacking 3 times. All it does is add another +1 to one attack with your weapon.
What you will have with this build is staying power. You're going single sword and your Lay on Hands is boosted and doesn't cost you an action. Meaning that you can weather the storm pretty well.
For Domain and Advanced Domain, don't you have to take Cleric Dedication first? Or does the Paladin get it now?
For Domain and Advanced Domain, don't you have to take Cleric Dedication first? Or does the Paladin get it now?Alternative Single Sword Paladin
01: Warded Touch
02: Hospitalier03: Weapon Ally
04: Domain (Zeal, if you can, you still want Zeal) (+1 Spell Point)
06: Channel Life (+1 Spell Point)
08: Advanced Domain (You are doing this for +3 Spell Points)10: Radiant Blade Spirit
The reason I put this here, despite needing to blow a reaction to use it, is because Retributive Strike isn't something you'll get much use out of normally. I don't like powers that revolve around the idea of your GM has to do something for it to happen. So I don't see losing a reaction here a big deal if it adds an extra +1d6 or so damage.
12: Aura of Faith
This is here because you'll be using Litany of Righteousness with this build a lot. This guarantees that you're dealing Good Damage to Evil Enemies at all times. So your Litany will always have damage to work off of.
14: Litany of Righteousness (+1 Spell Point)
16: Attack of Opportunity
18: Angelic Form
20: Radiant Blade Master (Keen is really good in this system)Note:
Assuming that you have a 20 Charisma by max level with this build (you should) you'll have 10-11 Spell Points by level 15. That isn't too shabby.-----
Damage-wise you're never going to be doing much here. Ideally you'll be dropping your Litany in a round when you can make 2 swings. Adding +5 Damage (minimum) to each swing, but that only works for 1 round. Aura of Faith ensures that you'll always have the good damage to trigger off of it though.
Weapon Surge is only good for one hit, so it is only good if you would otherwise be attacking 3 times. All it does is add another +1 to one attack with your weapon.
What you will have with this build is staying power. You're going single sword and your Lay on Hands is boosted and doesn't cost you an action. Meaning that you can weather the storm pretty well.
Paladin gets them normally, I think by multiclassing they get the same number as a cleric.
Is Iomedae clearly the best option for Paladins just because Zeal (both the basic domain power and the fact that the advanced one gives 3 spell points)?Yes.
It is also a backdoor Power Attack that you don't need to Class into Fighter to get.
Any other "good for optimizing" Paladin deities out there for concepts that don't fit Iomedae well? It doesn't look like anybody else gets a 3 spell point advanced domain, which is a bummer.
IIRC one of the goals in monster design in PF2 to replace most instances of "DR X/Foo" with "Weakness X/Foo"?
The power I am most disappointed in is the "Replacement" for Smite Evil.
Blade of Justice is just really bad.
True, it doesn't cost you any Spell Points to use, it does cost you an action. It does work on all of your attacks that turn but the benefit is... Ugh.
+1 Damage per Weapon Damage Die. It is, however, "Good" Damage, so that might be really good if a lot of enemies are vulnerable to good damage. I don't think many are.
At sixth level this feels lackluster.
I told you we agreed.
Your assessment is correct. Given that it does require an action, it really needs to add more to the potential attacks ability to hit, given that the attack distribution would otherwise not be worth using compared to just swinging a sword.
It should be +CHA to attack and damage, as it'll scale with your a character, has a maximum below +10, and doesn't require magic weapons. You trade out the potential for other attacks/crits in exchange for higher potential on both ends. That would make the action tax worth it.
What exactly is the manipulate trait and how does it affect LoH?
The power I am most disappointed in is the "Replacement" for Smite Evil.
Blade of Justice is just really bad.
True, it doesn't cost you any Spell Points to use, it does cost you an action. It does work on all of your attacks that turn but the benefit is... Ugh.
+1 Damage per Weapon Damage Die. It is, however, "Good" Damage, so that might be really good if a lot of enemies are vulnerable to good damage. I don't think many are.
At sixth level this feels lackluster.
I told you we agreed.
Your assessment is correct. Given that it does require an action, it really needs to add more to the potential attacks ability to hit, given that the attack distribution would otherwise not be worth using compared to just swinging a sword.
It should be +CHA to attack and damage, as it'll scale with your a character, has a maximum below +10, and doesn't require magic weapons. You trade out the potential for other attacks/crits in exchange for higher potential on both ends. That would make the action tax worth it.
Because of the advantage critting has, I wouldn't give +Cha to Attack, but I could see +Cha to Damage per weapon die.
I would even accept that it only worked on Evil Targets with that boost
The math of the game doesn't hold true for this, if you're giving up secondary attacks with the hope that this one crits, then the odds of a crit need to improve, as most of the time you are better off just swinging again to double up on your damage anyway since most of the book's enemies only incur around a 10-15% chance to crit on most martial builds, compared to around a 40% chance to land a hit with the secondary attack.
This means crits lose value because the odds of them showing up aren't enough to justify not making that second attack, on feats like Power Attack this means you're almost always losing damage unless you roll really good.
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So this was more of a thought experiment than a build, but I really like the idea of a Paladin of Nethys, and Retributive Strike is possible to optimize around if you wield a Reach weapon. A mid-range Paladin (Not front-line, not back-line), wields a Bo-Staff (because Deific Weapon is bad) or a superior Reach weapon if you feel like optimizing. At 2nd level, you take Wizard Dedication, because later on you get to base your Spell Points on Intelligence, and I want to be a dwarf, darn it! (For my own reasons).
Nethys's domains are pretty fun, reach synergizes really well with Retributive strike because you threaten every square near an adjacent ally, and if you go the Bo-Staff route you even get a pseudo-light shield effect if you want it.
It's not optimized, but I'm definitely planning on trying this build in a medium-sized group (5-6 players) to see if the mid-line support works well.
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You can't actually do that by the rules.So this was more of a thought experiment than a build, but I really like the idea of a Paladin of Nethys, and Retributive Strike is possible to optimize around if you wield a Reach weapon. A mid-range Paladin (Not front-line, not back-line), wields a Bo-Staff (because Deific Weapon is bad) or a superior Reach weapon if you feel like optimizing. At 2nd level, you take Wizard Dedication, because later on you get to base your Spell Points on Intelligence, and I want to be a dwarf, darn it! (For my own reasons).
Nethys's domains are pretty fun, reach synergizes really well with Retributive strike because you threaten every square near an adjacent ally, and if you go the Bo-Staff route you even get a pseudo-light shield effect if you want it.
It's not optimized, but I'm definitely planning on trying this build in a medium-sized group (5-6 players) to see if the mid-line support works well.
Yeah, but the rules are dumb, and it's a playtest, so if Paizo hates fun, they can come fight me for it.
A legal build would just not get domains, which is equally fine.
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I mean, the biggest problem is that you can't be a Paladin of Nethys because Nethys doesn't allow LG clerics.
Let's not put aside the fact that a "divine champion of Nethys" who doesn't cast spells, or one that doesn't cast a *lot* of spells, is sorta singularly inappropriate.
Even if we open up Paladin analogues to a variety of alignments, Nethys should not have champions who are not full spellcasters.
What exactly is the manipulate trait and how does it affect LoH?Manipulate allows the Paladin to be AoO'ed for using LoH
So if you get the one ability that allows you to lose the Manipulate trait, you can no longer be AoO'd?