Nerf Attack


Classes


Class Features

Nerf Attack
You deal somewhat additional damage to flat-footed creatures (see page 322, you know, if you can get the bard player to stop turning to page 201 and talking about his shiny new 7-10th level spells). If you Strike a flat-footed creature with an agile or finesse or padankadank weapon when it's dark on Tuesday except at night, an agile or finesse unarmed wait a minute seriously that's a thing how many ways are there of making a fist ok whatever, or a ranged attack, you deal 1d6 extra precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse or whatever just make sure it has a low base damage die.

As your rogue levels increase, and I do mean increase, so does the number of damage dice of your nerf attack. Gradually, so as not to frighten the other classes, increase the number of dice by one at 5th, 11th and 17th levels. That maxes out at 4d6, which is really not that bad when you think about it. So says your friend the max level 4E Rogue, but even he has 5d6 and you worry that he's just trying to make you feel better. You would ask the 3.5 and Pathfinder 1 Rogues, but they never seem to want to hang out with you.


i was waiting for this and in all honesty its like someone spelled assassin wrong at some point and made it rouge.... a rouge is not an assassin, but an assassin is a rouge... there should be a prestige class even in 3-3.5 that built off the sneak attack route if the character wanted to be that kind of PC and make the Rogue less damaging overall. but to make even the typical thief just as damaging as an assassin makes no sense... i like what they have done.


Odimeer wrote:
its like someone spelled assassin wrong at some point and made it rouge

pun intended? Anyway, Assassin, if I'm reading the current arc of the system correctly, would just be an archetype. Which would make it a feat tree. Mostly for Rogues who wanted death attack and more damage. So yes, I agree, that should be an option.

Now all they have to do is take all the stuff they gave the Rogue instead of damage and take the training wheels off, especially the high level things. I mean, look at Hidden Paragon. Great idea, you just need to mark through that part that says "Frequency once per hour". It's a 20th level character for god's sake, leave the weak sauce in the bottle.

Silver Crusade

It's a good sign that I've already seen threads about how the rogue is both too powerful and not powerful enough. Hopefully that means the rogue is well balanced.


ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
It's a good sign that I've already seen threads about how the rogue is both too powerful and not powerful enough. Hopefully that means the rogue is well balanced.

That's... not how it works. At all. That means someone is wrong. Someone just need to math out who's who.

Silver Crusade

PineTowers wrote:
ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
It's a good sign that I've already seen threads about how the rogue is both too powerful and not powerful enough. Hopefully that means the rogue is well balanced.
That's... not how it works. At all. That means someone is wrong. Someone just need to math out who's who.

There's no way to math out whether being good at skills is better than being better at combat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sneak attack is multiplied on a crit now. Which is one of the reasons for the lower increase as rogues are very good at criting more often, especially with agile weapons.


Now that two handers no longer get 1.5x ability modifier to damage, to make 2hs better they made them currently the only way to get 1d10s-1d12s outside of something like a monk or barbarian unarmed styles. So if magic is going to increase dice to 4d10 or 4d12 for a 2h is still vs a sneak attacking rogue with a 8d6 or 4d8+4d6 which is still about the same if not more damage in some cases. So I don't see why they should still get about equivalent damage and way more skills for just a little less in the defense department .If they kept 9-10d6 or used a bigger weapon, it would be way overkill for how much other bonuses they seem to already get.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

They're also not at 3/4 BAB. Rogues will still be a bit below fighters in terms of accuracy, but nowhere near as bad as it was in PF1.

For example, let's take level 10, assuming both characters have the same score in their attack stat, as well as the same weapon bonuses. Fighters could easily have +10 for BAB, +2 for weapon focus and GWF, +4 for weapon training with gloves of dueling (is there any reason for a fighter not to have them?) for a total of +16 before stat/weapon/buff bonuses are applied. A rogue would get +7 for BAB, and +1 for weapon focus, giving a total of +8, which is 8 lower than the fighter. If you're smart enough to play the unchained version, that gap would thankfully lowered a bit more by debilitating sneak attack, providing you've managed to land a hit already.

Now let's look at level 10 in PF 2. A fighter is an expert in martial weapons (+2 hit), while a rogue is trained (+1 hit). At level 13 the fighter will be master (+3) while the rogue is expert (+2 hit). A fighter can get some higher bonuses on their iteratives with Agile Grace and some of their press abilities, but in general, they're only at 1 higher accuracy. Giving rogues the same Sneak Attack progressing in PF1 would be absolutely insane in this edition. (There's a good chance I'm missing something, though, so please let me know if there's anything else I'm not considering in 2E)

You have to account for the edition changes before declaring something underpowered.


Mechalibur wrote:


Now let's look at level 10 in PF 2. A fighter is an expert in martial weapons (+2 hit), while a rogue is trained (+1 hit). At level 13 the fighter will be master (+3) while the rogue is expert (+2 hit). A fighter can get some higher bonuses on their iteratives with Agile Grace and some of their press abilities, but in general, they're only at 1 higher accuracy. Giving rogues the same Sneak Attack progressing in PF1 would be absolutely insane in this edition. (There's a good chance I'm missing something, though, so please let me know if there's anything else I'm not considering in 2E)

You have to account for the edition changes before declaring something underpowered.

Very small thing, only since you asked-Trained is +0, Expert's +1, Master +2 and Rogue doesn't seem to have a way to get past Trained Proficiency in a weapon until 13th level (unless I'm missing something, which is also very possible).

Regardless of the exact math, though, your point is well taken, although I think you're missing another big point in your favor-the attack rate for a high BAB/higher level character is also decreasing. Or rather, the relative attack rate, since the rogue can now take his three shots, too, at every level and the difference between multiple attack penalties are going to be slimmer. Not gonna try to run the math because I've already been in and out of anydice a couple times tonight, but I think that since the average amount of attacks for any character are going down, high damage attacks will be at more of a premium and therefore they decided to chop his damage.
So, yeah, agreed. Really, though, what I was going after above was the impact of the change in look and feel in amount of dice. +1d6 every other level feels straightforward and powerful, and that levelup joy is kind of a driving force.


Beast Weener wrote:
Class Features Nerf Attack...

Lord have mercy. That has to be one of the funniest posts I've read in half a decade.

I have to to tell you, I think everyone feels like Piazo stuck the stiletto in the gut of 1e.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Beast Weener wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:


Now let's look at level 10 in PF 2. A fighter is an expert in martial weapons (+2 hit), while a rogue is trained (+1 hit). At level 13 the fighter will be master (+3) while the rogue is expert (+2 hit). A fighter can get some higher bonuses on their iteratives with Agile Grace and some of their press abilities, but in general, they're only at 1 higher accuracy. Giving rogues the same Sneak Attack progressing in PF1 would be absolutely insane in this edition. (There's a good chance I'm missing something, though, so please let me know if there's anything else I'm not considering in 2E)

You have to account for the edition changes before declaring something underpowered.

Very small thing, only since you asked-Trained is +0, Expert's +1, Master +2 and Rogue doesn't seem to have a way to get past Trained Proficiency in a weapon until 13th level (unless I'm missing something, which is also very possible).

Whoops, you're right there. It keeps my math the same, but I'm glad you mentioned that before my playtest!


"Laughs in 5E"


can everyone do multiple attacks with their three actions or just the fighter using whirlwind strike?


JardelBeserk wrote:
can everyone do multiple attacks with their three actions or just the fighter using whirlwind strike?

Everyone. Attacks past the first get an increasing penalty, off-set by certain feats abilities and item qualities.

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