Can Perception Proficiency Be Increased?


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells

Grand Lodge

I'm currently struggling to understand if Perception proficiency can be increased or not. It's not a skill, so it seems it can't be increased with your skill increases.

There's the Alertness feat which increases it's proficiency to Expert, but that seems to be it.

So does this mean that if you're not a class with inherent perception proficiency increases like fighter, then you can't increase your perception proficiency past expert?


Basically*, yes. Its true for everything- saves, weapon/armor proficiency, signature skills, and perception. If your class doesn't give it to you, pushing it past expert isn't an option.

Functionally, if its mastery isn't an aspect of your class, you do everything at level or level+1.

*barring future content, obscure feats and the like. For example, the Grey Maiden dedication and archetype feats takes fortitude saves to mastery and shields and one specific type of heavy armor to legendary.

Rogue multiclass can take reflex saves to master, and can master any of the rogue signature skills.


You can't go past Expert in a skill unless it's a Signature skill, so you couldn't take Legendary Perception, even if it existed, because no class gets Perception as a Signature skill.

So far, I've noticed the Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger have Perception roll bonuses, and the Rogue has Perception proficiency increases.


By design, you're being set up to fail Perception checks regularly. The mechanic is such that it means there's always a built in chance of failure to any check. No character gets to be so good that they can't be caught out by trap, hiding creature or other nasty surprise.


I mean if it cannot be brought beyond expert then why does it even have a full TEML row on the character sheet? Futureproofing?


RiverMesa wrote:
I mean if it cannot be brought beyond expert then why does it even have a full TEML row on the character sheet? Futureproofing?

Some classes can bring it past expert, fighters for example, get master perception at 7th. So do rangers and rogues, and they also pick up legendary at 13th.

Just at the moment, if your class doesn't grant it, there isn't a way.


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I'd suggest promoting Perception to full Ability Score status with associated skills of Examine (identify item, appraise item, detect forgery), Search (locate object/items, find tracks, find traps, find hidden/secret doors), and Notice (passive perception).

That way Perception could be increased like any other ability score.


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FIghters become masters in Perception at level 7 with their class feature Battlefield Surveyor.

Rangers and rogues become masters in Perception at level 7 with their class feature Evasion, and legendary at level 15 with Improved Evasion.


Argh. I want my Monk and/or Elf characters to be able to become legendary in Perception! I want my Legolaaaaas!


Can you increase perception from trained to expert?


@Jesikah
Legolas was a Ranger. Rangers get Master and Legendary Perception at 7th and 15th level respectively.

@Doc Voodoo
With the Alertness feat, p. 163.


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Jesikah Morning's Dew wrote:
Argh. I want my Monk and/or Elf characters to be able to become legendary in Perception! I want my Legolaaaaas!

Since an Elf can be a Ranger or a Rogue, no problem there.

I can't help your Monk, unfortunately.


Yeah, and see, when it comes time for houserules, I'm thinking "feat to increase Perception" will be in order. Because with Monks, who are often known for their insight, their ability to see and feel and sense things that others can't, it makes sense to get better at Perception!

Dark Archive

David knott 242 wrote:
Jesikah Morning's Dew wrote:
Argh. I want my Monk and/or Elf characters to be able to become legendary in Perception! I want my Legolaaaaas!

Since an Elf can be a Ranger or a Rogue, no problem there.

I can't help your Monk, unfortunately.

But an elven ranger without any bow options?


brad2411 wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Jesikah Morning's Dew wrote:
Argh. I want my Monk and/or Elf characters to be able to become legendary in Perception! I want my Legolaaaaas!

Since an Elf can be a Ranger or a Rogue, no problem there.

I can't help your Monk, unfortunately.

But an elven ranger without any bow options?

Rangers can multiclass into Fighter for bow feats.


Meophist wrote:
brad2411 wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Jesikah Morning's Dew wrote:
Argh. I want my Monk and/or Elf characters to be able to become legendary in Perception! I want my Legolaaaaas!

Since an Elf can be a Ranger or a Rogue, no problem there.

I can't help your Monk, unfortunately.

But an elven ranger without any bow options?
Rangers can multiclass into Fighter for bow feats.

Sure, but that's super backwards, and the dedication feat gives them literally nothing....except training in heavy armor, which they won't use because they're an archer and thus a high dex character.


I'm not understanding niche protection on Perception. All adventures need it.


So let me get this straight. Rogues, which depending on their background have never lived a day in the deep of wilderness, and rangers, who have to lern to be at one with nature get perception bonuses, but the FRIGGING druid, who is supposed to be NATURE PERSONIFIED gets shafted out of a bonus without taking feats?!!! Why the feat tax? More importantly, why don't druids get this feature if PAIZO is so in love with perception *NOT* being a skill?


avatarless wrote:

I'd suggest promoting Perception to full Ability Score status with associated skills of Examine (identify item, appraise item, detect forgery), Search (locate object/items, find tracks, find traps, find hidden/secret doors), and Notice (passive perception).

That way Perception could be increased like any other ability score.

Orrr those could just be skills attached to Intelligence and Wisdom like before. With the "everyone improves at everything at every level up" paradigm baked into PF2, no one is going to end up more than few points behind at Notice even if they put nothing in it, and it lets those characters for whom it makes sense to skill it up to do so.

But yeah, Perception being an ability score would be better than nothing.

(Whether Perception gets broken back into Int/Wis or becomes its own score, they should definitely break out Sense Motive / Intuition / Insight / whatever they want to call it this time into its own skill again too.)

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