Goblin fighter needs Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) for Dogslicer ?


Ancestries & Backgrounds


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Pg 10 : The uncommon rarity indicates an element available
only to those who have been initiated into a special kind
of training, grow up in a certain culture, or come from a
particular part of the world. A character can’t take these
options by default.

Pg 31 : WEAPON FAMILIARITY (GOBLIN) FEAT 1
You are trained with the dogslicer and horsechopper.
In addition, you gain access to all uncommon goblin weapons.
For the purpose of proficiencies, you treat martial goblin weapons
as simple weapons and exotic goblin weapons as martial
weapons.

Pg 86 : Fighter Weapon proficiencies - Expert in all simple and martial weapons. Trained in all exotic weapons.

I'm building a Level 1 Goblin Dex Fighter.
Am I correct in thinking I need to take Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) in order to use a Dogslicer ?
As a fighter, I already have Expert prof with Melee martial weapons, which the Dogslicer is. Nor do I need the change in status for Martial Goblin Weapons to Simple, or Exotic Goblin to Martial.
Do I need Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) just to overcome the (Uncommon) trait, or is my fighter Expert Martial prof enough ?


Since the character is a goblin, my logic says it isn't necessary, but it seems contradicted by what's on the page.

Complicating this, the 'in terms of proficiencies it's treated as a simple weapon' has a weird side effect (and this is true of other similar ancestry feats):

Paladins have a class ability that increases the damage die of a simple weapon by one step, if it is the favored weapon of their deity. I don't think it affects any core deities, but it could be relevant in the future.


Thanks for your reply, Voss.
It's inconclusive so far, isn't it ?

I kind of think Weapon Familiarity (Goblin)is probably intended as a cheap option for non-martial Goblins to get access to a couple of specific weapon proficiencies.
But I might be wrong.


The Dogslicer is the favored weapon of The Dark One.


Quote:

Rarity

[...]The uncommon rarity indicates an element available
only to those who have been initiated into a special kind
of training, grow up in a certain culture, or come from a
particular part of the world. A character can’t take these
options by default. Specific choices, such as class features
or backgrounds, might give access to certain uncommon
elements. The GM can grant any character access to
uncommon options if she so chooses. The level (or type of
element for those without levels) is marked in red.

pg. 10

i guess being a goblin would be a reasonable ancestry to gain access to dogslicers. Still gotta ask/beg your GM.


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The ancestry feat Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) is exactly for the purpose you're talking about.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm away from the PDF at the moment, but the part missing from this is the equipment chapter stuff about the Dogslicer - is it normally considered uncommon?


Yes, it's from the 'Uncommon Martial Melee Weapons' catagory.

My point is just that I don't need Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) to be trained in it, because as a Martial weapon, I'm already expert from fighter.
It's got the 'Goblin' trait & I'm already a Goblin, so I don't need Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) for that.

So the only reason I need Weapon Familiarity (Goblin)(If indeed I do need it), is because it's an Uncommon weapon.

If so, it's not the end of the world, just pondering what RAI is.

Liberty's Edge

Voss wrote:
Paladins have a class ability that increases the damage die of a simple weapon by one step, if it is the favored weapon of their deity.

That's not a proficiency, so it wouldn't apply to the dogslicer.


I would think tbatbth2 fighter proficiency would take over in that case?


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graeme mcdougall wrote:

Yes, it's from the 'Uncommon Martial Melee Weapons' catagory.

My point is just that I don't need Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) to be trained in it, because as a Martial weapon, I'm already expert from fighter.
It's got the 'Goblin' trait & I'm already a Goblin, so I don't need Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) for that.

So the only reason I need Weapon Familiarity (Goblin)(If indeed I do need it), is because it's an Uncommon weapon.

If so, it's not the end of the world, just pondering what RAI is.

The wording in Weapon Familiarity seems to suggest that you have to take it in order to be for it to be considered a Simple and Martial weapon for Proficiencies. So it seems Uncommon items will usually be locked behind a feat or maybe a class ability?

BUT under Uncommon in the glossary it does say that "the GM
can allow access for anyone she chooses." Which I would say if you're a Goblin Fighter from a goblin place why wouldn't goblin weapons be considered common for YOU.

To me there needs to be a little more information on uncommon and weapon familiarity feats and how they work with everything else.


Rameth wrote:


The wording in Weapon Familiarity seems to suggest that you have to take it in order to be for it to be considered a Simple and Martial weapon for Proficiencies. So it seems Uncommon items will usually be locked behind a feat or maybe a class ability?

BUT under Uncommon in the glossary it does say that "the GM
can allow access for anyone she chooses." Which I would say if you're a Goblin Fighter from a goblin place why wouldn't goblin weapons be considered common for YOU.

To me there needs to be a little more information on uncommon and weapon familiarity feats and how they work with everything else.

Thanks, I agree we seem to need a little more info to settle the matter. I think you're right that strict RAW, I would probably need to take it, just seems that being a fighter, he's getting a lot less value from that Ancestry Feat than a class that didn't already have martial weapon proficiencies.

Think it's one a dev might have to weigh in on, except they've got enough on their plates right now, I imgine.


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No, you don't need the Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) feat to unlock the weapons for a Goblin Fighter. On p. 181 Dogslicers and Horsechoppers are Uncommon Martial Melee weapons with the Goblin trait. P. 182 defines the trait as:
Goblin People of the goblin ancestry craft and use these weapons.

The weapon familiarity feat goes further by stating that all Goblin Martial weapons are treated as Simple weapons when you possess the feat, meaning Goblin Alchemists with the feat can use those (formerly) martial weapons, but Goblin Wizards (no simple weapon feat) cannot. IF this feat was required to unlock those weapons, then why bother listing them as martial and then reducing them to simple? Why wouldn't you just list them as simple weapons, and require the feat to unlock them?

However, for any goblin with martial training, this turns Weapon Familiarity into a feat tax. If you are already martially trained, you get NO bonus from taking Weapon Familiarity. Except that it is a requirement for Weapon Frenzy which IS useful.


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This might be something for the design team to address. I would like to see cultural weapons be the standard rather than the exception. I could see a goblin who could only use dogslicers, horsechoppers and other eccentric goblin weaponry and for whom any human weapons are ungainly. That I could see. A goblin who can use any human weapon but has trouble making a dogslicer work? That seems like a bug that needs fixed.


There should be nothing stopping you from using the weapon. The feat is simply for classes outside of fighter and for fighters that want to use an exotic goblin weapon. Those are not in the game yet but might be when the game releases for real.


Did anyone read about the goblin background here?

from what I ready a faction of goblins split off from the rest to become more civilized in which means they left a lot of there culture behind to attempt to be accepted into the new culture. So that why the primitive dogslicer and horsechopper are uncommon because you are not hanging out with goblin war parties anymore.


We read it. But this has all happened in the last decade. This is not some new civilized branch of goblinkind, this is a cargo cult of goblins who have come to think that longshanks are neat, but still go diving in garbage pits for lunch and tinker their weapons out of old roof tiles and rusty beartrap parts.


Mach5RR wrote:

No, you don't need the Weapon Familiarity (Goblin) feat to unlock the weapons for a Goblin Fighter. On p. 181 Dogslicers and Horsechoppers are Uncommon Martial Melee weapons with the Goblin trait. P. 182 defines the trait as:

Goblin People of the goblin ancestry craft and use these weapons.

The weapon familiarity feat goes further by stating that all Goblin Martial weapons are treated as Simple weapons when you possess the feat, meaning Goblin Alchemists with the feat can use those (formerly) martial weapons, but Goblin Wizards (no simple weapon feat) cannot. IF this feat was required to unlock those weapons, then why bother listing them as martial and then reducing them to simple? Why wouldn't you just list them as simple weapons, and require the feat to unlock them?

However, for any goblin with martial training, this turns Weapon Familiarity into a feat tax. If you are already martially trained, you get NO bonus from taking Weapon Familiarity. Except that it is a requirement for Weapon Frenzy which IS useful.

Thanks Mach5RR, I should have picked up that extra text on the Goblin trait, I think that does settle it.

I'm glad to think that martial goblins can just use them anyway, otherwise it seems they're getting poor value from that Ancestry Feat. Good point about the Weapon Frenzy, might be worth thinking about after level 1.


Senkon wrote:
There should be nothing stopping you from using the weapon. The feat is simply for classes outside of fighter and for fighters that want to use an exotic goblin weapon. Those are not in the game yet but might be when the game releases for real.

Thanks Senkon, that make sense.


If you notice, they have removed all the racial 'traits' from PF1, and made them into feats. No race gets access to their heritage weapons, just like dwarves aren't naturally resistant to poison and elves are not immune to sleep - unless they take the feat.

As normal, you can RP and change the rules as you see fit for your home games, but officially and in PFS, you need to take the feat if you want to start with access to a goblin dogslicer. Nothing stopping you from killing some goblins on your first adventure and looting a goblin dogslicer.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mach5RR wrote:
However, for any goblin with martial training, this turns Weapon Familiarity into a feat tax. If you are already martially trained, you get NO bonus from taking Weapon Familiarity. Except that it is a requirement for Weapon Frenzy which IS useful.

Weapon Frenzy* isn't actually that useful for some martial class goblins either. Barbarians get Critical Brutality at 3rd level, which grants the critical specialization effects of any melee weapon or unarmed attack when raging. Fighters get Weapon Mastery at 3rd level, which grants the critical specialization effects in one weapon group (as well as increasing proficiency to master). Rangers gain Weapon Expertise at 3rd level, which grants the critical specialization effects in one weapon group (as well as increasing proficiency to expert). Paladins can select Blade Ally at 3rd level, which grants the critical specialization effect to the weapon inhabited by the spirit.

*- or Weapon Cunning (Dwarf), Weapon Elegance (Elf), and Weapon Innovator (Gnome)


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I could be mistaken, but my reading of uncommon equipments was that they are more difficult to get access to (for the purposes of buying), not that they were exempt from proficiencies like some parallel exotic track.


I mean

Quote:
The GM can grant any character access to uncommon options if she so chooses.

So if a player would just be taking the ancestry feat to gain access to a weapon they would already be proficient in, I might just tell them not to bother with the feat. Like if you're a goblin barbarian who is trained in craft, it's plausible you just made your own. "Can I just buy this inexpensive uncommon item associated with my culture without the associated feat" seems like a thing it's not worth holding the line on.

Where these feats are not redundant for fighters, however, is in the case the weapon is exotic (e.g. Dwarven Waraxe, Gnomish Flickmace, Orc Necksplitter) since the feat Dwarf feat says

Quote:
For the purpose of proficiencies, you treat martial dwarf weapons as simple weapons and exotic dwarf weapons as martial weapons.

Since fighters gain benefits in "simple and martial weapons" faster than they do in exotic ones. But for the Dogslicer, I figure that's a thing one can work out with the GM.

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