Core System / Bestiary Issues

General Discussion

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So a big problem, for me, with this already is that the stats in the Bestiary seem to be entirely made up/not able to be generated with the rules of the underlying system. For example:
Wolf: (Creature 1) Str +1, Dex +2, ... Attack: Bite +7 (1d6+1).

Okay, so, he's a level 1 creature with at most a +2 bonus to his "attack" stat, and for some reasons, his Bite goes off at a +7? I mean, I'm assuming you did this just to fit PC numbers, but this makes it nearly impossible to naturally build an NPC villian for fighting the PCs, because PC vs. PC numbers just don't add up.

Being able to naturally create rivals for the PCs in PF1 was a big selling feature, and if that's now impossible... well, I don't know what to think.

Grand Lodge

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This was a design idea pulled from Starfinder. A lot of the stat block happens behind the scenes and doesn't make sense with the math we see directly. Hopefully there will be a guide on how to build monsters.

But if you look at the NPC section of the Bestiary you will note that the math does add up and acts like PCs. They even make mention of this at the beginning of the section.

Thanks for the pointer, but actually, that's not true, the numbers there don't add up either, for example:
Mercenary Scout (3)
Dexterity: +4, Hide Armor: +3, AC: 18 (should be 20)
Kukri: +9 (should be +7)

This occurs with other NPCs as well, this is just one example.

EDIT: A better example, literally the first NPC :-P
Halfling Footpad (0)
Dexterity: +4, Leather Armor: +1, AC: 14 (should be 15)
Dagger: +6 (should be +4 at most)

I consider this a design feature, not a flaw. Monsters and NPCs should be balanced to provide an entertaining encounter not forced to make changes just to make the math come out right.

As an example of why this is important, I've been running a game recently where all of the characters had very high ACs at fairly low levels (think high 20s at level 3). My choices were essentially limited to throwing them against encounters where the bad guys couldn't hit (dull), Lots of touch ac encounters (fine for once in a while, but gets old after a while) or things which can hit them reliably which due to being higher level also tend to hit harder. It gets frustrating.

Being able to do things with monsters so that I can more reliably have things hit, but not do much damage, or miss often but hit like a truck will make for a more entertaining game in my opinion.

I don't understand the Bestiary math. Paizo has to be adding in a proficiency bonus with the ability modifier. So, would the Halfling Footpad be Master proficient with a dagger in the above example?

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They've done this because ACs are inflated in the underlying system. A simple fix would be to have your AC be 8+armor+dex rather than 10. The problem is if you build two reasonably good characters organically and have them go at each other, it'll be a flurry of misses, and that's not an enjoyable experience.

@Senjen: I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be balance, just that the underlying system should be organic/predictable. If NPCs stats don't match PC stats, then it makes it very hard to compose things.

Posting this from another thread as it seems relevant to the topic? :/

There seems to be a bit of inconsistency regarding the names of the various languages in both the Playtest Rulebook & Playtest Bestiary.

E.g. Under the Dwarf Ancestry section in the Rulebook:
The names for many of the languages listed (incl. that of the Dwarf ancestry itself) are not the same as everywhere else in the book.

"Dwarf" should be Dwarven.
"Giant" should be Jotun.
"Orc" should be Orcish.
"Gnome" should be Gnomish.

Or the languages as listed in the entry are correct but those listed elsewhere are not?

In the Bestiary, this inconsistency is a little more widespread, e.g. Orcs speak "Orc" - which is fine. But then why have it as Orcish in the Playtest Rulebook? Also Ettin, Green Hag, Norn, Ogre, & Oni are all listed as speaking "Giant". Wouldn't it be Jotun, the language actual giants (in the book) speak?

  • * I know, I know. It seems 'nitpicky'. And, fortunately, these are the playtest docs & not the final versions, so there will be some errors/typos/inconsistencies in them. And I'm fine with that.
  • * However, I feel that the 'language inconsistency' has the potential to creep into not only the finalised rulebook, but also into other products like the Bestiary itself - at least in the earlier years of the game.
  • * So, it may be a good idea to decide what are the languages for the ancestries/creatures & get everyone on the same page. Then, apply the decision(s) consistently.
  • * Also, will daemons be getting their own language in PF2?
  • * I appreciate that the team is currently focussed on gathering & processing feedback for the rules of the new game & how they play/work/not work. This isn't meant to be a 'naggy post' or a "Ha! Found an error! Paizo faaailed! <overly dramatic whine>" post.
  • * Rather, this is a "When you get to the finishing touches, be aware that there are some lore/rule inconsistencies spread about, so give it another look through - preferrably with the official list of languages/adjectives/etc. at hand ;) " kind of post.

TL;DR (the spoiler): Please pick which version of the language-name is official, & stick with it.

Thank you.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

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The versions in the Playtest Rulebook are the "official" versions, at least at this moment. The changes were made VERY late in the game, and somehow we missed universalizing these changes during the edit of the Playtest Bestiary.

Erik Mona wrote:

The versions in the Playtest Rulebook are the "official" versions, at least at this moment. The changes were made VERY late in the game, and somehow we missed universalizing these changes during the edit of the Playtest Bestiary.

Kind of what I thought had happened, and I completely understand.

(I'm sure things are a little...hectic atm.)

Just calling attention to the descrepancies so that they can be addressed when the final version of the CRB & Bestiary are decided.

Thank you for your reply.

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