Half-Orc / Half-Elf


Ancestries & Backgrounds

101 to 150 of 171 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Two (or more) Ancestry feats would help Half-Its with the whole 'can't even have one actual ancestry feat until at least 3rd level and otherwise 5th level; because heaven forbid you actually recieve a general feat before 7th level' thing. However, humans and halflings could use some more initial benefits to better compare to other ancestries.


I personally like the idea of using a feat to enable hybrid ancestries, if only because it opens up the possibility of nonhuman hybrids with actual differing features (such as the plane-touched of nonhuman ancestry). However, I strongly dislike it being implemented with so few ancestry feats (gained as the character levels -- obviously, the lists will be added to as the game gains sourcebooks). This lack of ancestry feats hurts all ancestries (making them bland and same-seeming at low levels), but devastates the hybrids. Sure, giving up a feat for better versatility makes sense, but only if you have enough feat slots to make that versatility mean something. Obviously, the simple answer is to add some ancestry feat slots; this has benefits across the board (especially when more ancestry feats are added to represent the old alternate racial traits and old racial feats), and if necessary could even be parceled out (perhaps adding a second level slot) instead of completely front-loading them.

I agree that the half-elves and half-orcs deserve their own ancestry write-up pages, but keep in mind that this is a >huge< playtest where space is such a concern that only four of the multiclass archetypes were able to be presented. It is likely that the current "footnote" approach is only a space-saving method, or at least we can hope.

What I'd really like to see is, in addition to the Half-Elf and Half-Orc feats for humans, a Half-Human feat for elves and orcs (and Orcs as a core race, if only to support this) to represent half-elves and half-orcs that more resemble their nonhuman parent than the human one.


After discussing the Pathfinder playtest half-races with my group, almost all it seems would prefer if the half-orc and half-elf had their own separate ancestry entries rather than being swept under the rug as "human." It's not just a mechanics issue but also about the messages that it sends regarding the place of half-elves and half-orcs as ancestries. It made my players who liked playing these half-ancestries feel like their preferred choices were being half-arsed, no pun intended there.

If the standard two half-ancestries were given their own ancestry entries and not just part of the human one, then there could be alternative ways to build them. Maybe the half-ancestries are blocked from the level-one only human and elven heritage feats but have their own. I don't know. I do not that my group is not happy with the half-elf and half-orc as they are in the PF2 Playtest.


That's certainly depending on personal taste. I like that half-X don't have their own seperate ancestry because it reflects that they are walking between worlds. Finding their own identity is a big part of playing any half-X in my opinion. This system allows the players to give the character depth. Is the half-elf following his human roots and take human feats or does he explore his elven roots? This allows so much depth and characterdevelopment. Especially with the option to get more ancestry feats during the course of the career.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aldarc wrote:


It's not just a mechanics issue but also about the messages that it sends regarding the place of half-elves and half-orcs as ancestries. It made my players who liked playing these half-ancestries feel like their preferred choices were being half-arsed, no pun intended there.

The one thing I like about the 1E half elves and orcs (and why I play them a lot) is that they feel distinctly between the races i.e. something distinct. You can see a half elf become a summoner because as a child she longed for friends her age and getting a distinct advantage to be summoner. You can see a half orc shaman take up calling upon spirits because they can't compete physically with your full orc peers.

That is what is cool in 1e and is likely to be lost if the half races are not distinct. Half elf/orc will likely be ignored as more Human-ish options are added with a 2e APG and Ultimate Books and there are less options for half races, who are essentially ignored/forgotten.

It encourages the game to return to the bad days of 3.0-3.5 DnD when the half elf/orc were such poor options that they seldom if ever saw play.


Kerney wrote:

It encourages the game to return to the bad days of 3.0-3.5 DnD when the half elf/orc were such poor options that they seldom if ever saw play.

Bold prediction, considering that half-elves are probably the mechanically strongest ancestry right now.


Asuet wrote:
That's certainly depending on personal taste. I like that half-X don't have their own seperate ancestry because it reflects that they are walking between worlds. Finding their own identity is a big part of playing any half-X in my opinion. This system allows the players to give the character depth. Is the half-elf following his human roots and take human feats or does he explore his elven roots? This allows so much depth and characterdevelopment. Especially with the option to get more ancestry feats during the course of the career.

Except they are not "walking between worlds," as they are crammed into the human entry, which communicates walking human. My own preference is something akin to Eberron's half-elves where they are not "walking human" or "walking between worlds," but are instead walking their own paths. They are something distinct. This is also a direction that 4e-5e D&D has taken with half-orcs and half-elves.


Aldarc wrote:
Except they are not "walking between worlds," as they are crammed into the human entry, which communicates walking human. My own preference is something akin to Eberron's half-elves where they are not "walking human" or "walking between worlds," but are instead walking their own paths. They are something distinct. This is also a direction that 4e-5e D&D has taken with half-orcs and half-elves.

Because the entry is in the human section they can't walk between worlds? So if they got their own entry but would work mechanically exactly the same that would be somehow different? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The pathfinder setting is not that of Eberron or D&D, although you can certainly use these settings for your homebrew pathfinder campaign.

This is how half-elves are depicted in pathfinder:
"The life of a half-elf can be difficult, marked by a
struggle to fit in. Half-elves don’t have their own homeland
on Golarion, nor are populations of half-elves particularly
tied to one another, since they often have very disparate
human and elven heritages. Instead, most half-elves attempt
to find acceptance in either human or elven settlements.
Despite this innate appeal, many
half-elves have difficulty forming lasting bonds with
humans or elves due to the disconnection they feel from
both peoples as a whole." (p.36)

This might not fit your personal preferences but you can always do your homebrew campaign and change aspects of the game. Just don't expect that your personal view needs to be canon and be reflected in the rules.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Asuet wrote:
Because the entry is in the human section they can't walk between worlds? So if they got their own entry **but would work mechanically exactly the same** that would be somehow different? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Erroneous assumption detected.

Quote:
The pathfinder setting is not that of Eberron or D&D, although you can certainly use these settings for your homebrew pathfinder campaign.

I recognize that, but people have been using Pathfinder 1 to continue their D&D 3.X and Eberron campaigns. They have been using it as a D&D 3.X game for their own homebrew settings. I know that PF2 wants to stick more closely to its Golarion setting, but it risks alienating others that want a more setting neutral approach. And I can tell you now that this current approach risks alienating many in my own group.

Quote:

This is how half-elves are depicted in pathfinder:

"The life of a half-elf can be difficult, marked by a struggle to fit in. Half-elves don’t have their own homeland on Golarion, nor are populations of half-elves particularly tied to one another, since they often have very disparate human and elven heritages. Instead, most half-elves attempt to find acceptance in either human or elven settlements. Despite this innate appeal, many half-elves have difficulty forming lasting bonds with humans or elves due to the disconnection they feel from both peoples as a whole." (p.36)

Cool. And how are goblins depicted?

Quote:
This might not fit your personal preferences but you can always do your homebrew campaign and change aspects of the game. Just don't expect that your personal view needs to be canon and be reflected in the rules.

Need? No. Want? Of course. But I will continue to reflect that my play group collectively dislikes this change to the half-races and that this will undoubtedly affect their decision about whether to pick Pathfinder 2 up or not. Though I imagine that makes no sense whatsoever for you.


I don't know what goblins have to do with the discussion about half-orcs and -elves.
Half-elves in PF1 have been depiced axactly the same. If you dislike the setting and are not able to change it for your homebrew game in a way that it fits your groups liking then that's hardly the fault of the system.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I can change it to fit my homebrew setting. I just rather Paizo provide the Half-Elf and Half-Orc Ancestries rather than having to make them myself since they're a beloved core race staple for multiple settings/editions/games.


Paizo provides enough to work with here if you want to change the role of half-elves in your homebrew setting. It's not their responsibility to work out all your homebrew details.
I personally am not a fan at all of the Golarion setting. But I think Paizo has a right to create their own universe and depict the races within however they want. And not everybody wants forgotten realms (or whatever) clones.

Sovereign Court

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Asuet wrote:

Paizo provides enough to work with here if you want to change the role of half-elves in your homebrew setting. It's not their responsibility to work out all your homebrew details.

I personally am not a fan at all of the Golarion setting. But I think Paizo has a right to create their own universe and depict the races within however they want. And not everybody wants forgotten realms (or whatever) clones.

None of this is their "responsibility", and they have the "right" to do whatever they want with their intellectual property. That's basically irrelevant to the topic at hand. They could print what they have right now, say "this is Pathfinder Second Edition, take it or leave it", and hope for the best.

But they went to all the trouble of putting out beta rules and having a playtest so that they could get feedback. And for some of us, that feedback is "we're dissatisfied with how half-elves and half-orcs are represented here, and would like to see that changed for the final product". I don't see any reason why that feedback is any less valid than any other opinion on the playtest.

Perhaps it's best to allow others to provide their feedback. The playtest is for everyone, after all. ^_^

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Asuet wrote:
Paizo provides enough to work with here if you want to change the role of half-elves in your homebrew setting.
The "change" I'm asking for is to have them exist in the first place, which I do not believe is too much ask, given how long they've existed everywhere else and most importantly, in 1st Edition.
Asuet wrote:
It's not their responsibility to work out all your homebrew details.
Half-Elves aren't something I just made up, they've been here for awhile.
Asuet wrote:
And not everybody wants forgotten realms (or whatever) clones.

*blink*

What does the Realms have to do with any of this?


Well then maybe people should present their feedback for that in a proper way. Saying the half-races need an overhaul instead of actually saying Paizo should change their world setting is just dishonest. That has nothing to do with Player Rules.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

... what are you talking about?

We're all wanting Paizo to not change their setting by making Half-Elves/Orcs Feat taxes. We want Half-Elves and half-Orcs to be actual Ancestries.


Sorry, that response was adressed at Kalindlara.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

She's saying the same things as the rest of us.


No, she isn't. She was responding to my argument with Aldarc who wants the half-races to be changed because he doesn't like the way these races are portrayed in specifically the Golarion setting. Which is a completely different argument from saying that the half-X feat is a tax, which by the way is ridiculous considering that the half-elf feat is one of the best feats you can take as a human. Dim light vision and 5 feet extra movement. You call that a "tax"?

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Aldarc is wanting them to function like how they are in 1st so they can continue to depict them in their own games how they want, they weren't asking for Paizo to change them to match their home game.

And yes it is a Feat Tax becasue I have to spend it if I want to play a Half-Elf. I don't care what all mechanics they get, I honestly haven't even read them. Cause I don't care. I don't care what they get or how good they may be. It's a Feat Tax to play a semblance of a formerly Core Race. You're playing a human that is a little bit Elfy or Orcy.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Dwarf.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Gnome.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Halfing.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Goblin.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play an Elf.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Human.

THAT is why this is a Feat tax.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I like the implementation of half-races as heritage feats, but I think they should not be feats, and every ancestry should be able to choose a different heritage at level 1, and they should be robust for the ancestries and separate from the feats for them. This would free up the ancestry feat slot, and wouldn't require them to rewrite the whole system.

I also like this for stat boosts, as half-humans generally had the same stat buffs as humans anyway.

I'd want to see a planetouched heritage choice, a dragon-soul heritage choice, and a half-giant heritage choice to fill out the humans choices, those that want to be full-blooded humans can take on another feat fulfilling their bonus feat at level 1 niche.

It also enables them to do things like drow, duergar, svirfneblin, and other alternate heritages as expansions later on (or in a fully realized core). That would be amazing.

In fact, you could get a lot of different heritages going for each race, unlocking things like Hobgoblins for medium sized goblinoids, or Aquatic elves. Free Heritage option at 1st level could be something that really sets the ancestries apart.


Rysky wrote:

Aldarc is wanting them to function like how they are in 1st so they can continue to depict them in their own games how they want, they weren't asking for Paizo to change them to match their home game.

And yes it is a Feat Tax becasue I have to spend it if I want to play a Half-Elf. I don't care what all mechanics they get, I honestly haven't even read them. Cause I don't care. I don't care what they get or how good they may be. It's a Feat Tax to play a semblance of a formerly Core Race. You're playing a human that is a little bit Elfy or Orcy.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Dwarf.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Gnome.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Halfing.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Goblin.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play an Elf.

You don't have to spend a Feat to play a Human.

THAT is why this is a Feat tax.

The main issue I see with making them full ancestries is that they do gain the equivalent of a class feat at level 1.

The only way I can see that working is if they completely remove the "you can pick any ancestral feat from either X or human" part and have access only to unique half-x ancestral feats.

And, frankly, this will make them lose flavor if they cannot focus on one ancestry or the other.

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Asuet wrote:
No, she isn't. She was responding to my argument with Aldarc who wants the half-races to be changed because he doesn't like the way these races are portrayed in specifically the Golarion setting. Which is a completely different argument from saying that the half-X feat is a tax, which by the way is ridiculous considering that the half-elf feat is one of the best feats you can take as a human. Dim light vision and 5 feet extra movement. You call that a "tax"?

Yes. Being forced to choose a feat that a player doesn't care about in order to gain feats that the player does care about is a common definition of feat tax. It doesn't matter how good the feat is.

I feel this is a particularly bad case because, while the other ancestries get to express themselves somewhat at 1st level (with the options presumably growing as P2E gains content), half-elves and half-orcs do not. Instead of being a gnome who has a particularly good sense of smell or is obsessive over a specific piece of lore, they are a human who ... is half elf. Growing up with an elven or half-elven parent defines them.

Sovereign Court

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Asuet wrote:
No, she isn't.

I don't know where you got the impression that you know what I'm saying better than anyone else, and feel you can speak for me and my position. But I'd appreciate being allowed to speak for myself and not "translated" by you.

Asuet wrote:
Dim light vision and 5 feet extra movement. You call that a "tax"?

Yes.

The ancestry system is built on choice and customization. Unless you're a half-elf, in which case you can only ever have ONE choice. I don't care if it's the best choice ever. I care that the system is sold on choice, and half-elves and half-orcs don't get a choice.

Sovereign Court

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Asuet wrote:
Well then maybe people should present their feedback for that in a proper way. Saying the half-races need an overhaul instead of actually saying Paizo should change their world setting is just dishonest. That has nothing to do with Player Rules.

I don't recall any guidelines from Paizo staff that suggest what you're talking about was "improper". If you could provide me a link to your source, I'd appreciate it greatly.

As for your tone and accusations, I'll leave those to the moderators to judge.


Kalindlara wrote:
Asuet wrote:
No, she isn't.

I don't know where you got the impression that you know what I'm saying better than anyone else, and feel you can speak for me and my position. But I'd appreciate being allowed to speak for myself and not "translated" by you.

Asuet wrote:
Dim light vision and 5 feet extra movement. You call that a "tax"?

Yes.

The ancestry system is built on choice and customization. Unless you're a half-elf, in which case you can only ever have ONE choice. I don't care if it's the best choice ever. I care that the system is sold on choice, and half-elves and half-orcs don't get a choice.

If you criticize the ancestry system because your real agenda is that you don't like the world of Golarion then that is a dishonest way of giving feedback and not constructive because ultimately no system would make that person content except for the change of the world Paizo created.

If you did not respond to that, then you missed my point and I in conclusion misrepresented your opinion. Sorry.

This part of the forum is for Playtest/Player Rules/Ancestries. Problems with the world of Golarion should be adressed in the general forum. That's why it's improper.

To your comment on tax:
Every race has heritage feats. If you want to take them you have to take them at level 1. That is the same for elves, dwarves, gnomes, goblins, halflings and humans. Half races are heritage feats and grant massive boni. No one complains about being forced to take the elf heritage feat keen hearing. It's only when it comes to half-X that people get a problem with that.

Picking heritage feats is not a tax. People just want more feats to chose from right from the start. I can get that. The system Paizo went with in this edition is that you develop your ancestry over time. You might like that or not but it is not special for half-X.

Every race is limited in their choice of feats at level 1 if the player wants to include the heritage feat. the good thing is that you get more feats over time.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Asuet wrote:
If you criticize the ancestry system because your real agenda is that you don't like the world of Golarion then that is a dishonest way of giving feedback and not constructive because ultimately no system would make that person content except for the change of the world Paizo created.
? what are you going on about??? This has nothing to do with Golarion, this has to do with Half-Elves/Orcs. The issue is setting irrelevant.
Asuet wrote:
Every race has heritage feats.
They don’t have to take those specific feats to be that ancestry though. They just are. No hoops to jump through.
Asuet wrote:
If you want to take them you have to take them at level 1. That is the same for elves, dwarves, gnomes, goblins, halflings and humans.
You don’t have to take any Feats to play those Ancestries though.
Asuet wrote:
Half races are heritage feats and grant massive boni.
Whatever the bonus the feat gives is irrelevant. That’s not the issue. No one cares what bonuses they give. It’s a Feat tax.
Asuet wrote:
No one complains about being forced to take the elf heritage feat keen hearing. It's only when it comes to half-X that people get a problem with that.
Because you don’t have to take those feats to play an Elf, you can just play an Elf. You have to spend a Feat to play a Half-Elf.
Asuet wrote:
Picking heritage feats is not a tax.
It is when you’re forced to take one if you want to play the Ancestry you want.
Asuet wrote:
People just want more feats to chose from right from the start.
SOME people have pushed for that. I haven’t. I could care less cause adding more Feats doesn’t solve the issue. You could start with 1 Heritage Feat and 2 Ancestry feats and we would still have the issue of being forced to go through a Feat tax to play a Half-Elf.
Asuet wrote:
The system Paizo went with in this edition is that you develop your ancestry over time. You might like that or not but it is not special for half-X.
It is actually, I don’t have to spend a Feat to play an Elf or a Dwarf.
Asuet wrote:
Every race is limited in their choice of feats at level 1 if the player wants to include the heritage feat.
But being able to play their Ancestry is not an issue they have to deal with. Halves- have to contend with a Feat Tax to exist.
Asuet wrote:
the good thing is that you get more feats over time.

Irrelevant to the issue at hand.


Rysky wrote:
Asuet wrote:
If you criticize the ancestry system because your real agenda is that you don't like the world of Golarion then that is a dishonest way of giving feedback and not constructive because ultimately no system would make that person content except for the change of the world Paizo created.
? what are you going on about??? This has nothing to do with Golarion, this has to do with Half-Elves/Orcs. The issue is setting irrelevant.
Asuet wrote:
Every race has heritage feats.
They don’t have to take those specific feats to be that ancestry though. They just are. No hoops to jump through.
Asuet wrote:
If you want to take them you have to take them at level 1. That is the same for elves, dwarves, gnomes, goblins, halflings and humans.
You don’t have to take any Feats to play those Ancestries though.
Asuet wrote:
Half races are heritage feats and grant massive boni.
Whatever the bonus the feat gives is irrelevant. That’s not the issue. No one cares what bonuses they give. It’s a Feat tax.
Asuet wrote:
No one complains about being forced to take the elf heritage feat keen hearing. It's only when it comes to half-X that people get a problem with that.
Because you don’t have to take those feats to play an Elf, you can just play an Elf. You have to spend a Feat to play a Half-Elf.
Asuet wrote:
Picking heritage feats is not a tax.
It is when you’re forced to take one if you want to play the Ancestry you want.
Asuet wrote:
People just want more feats to chose from right from the start.
SOME people have pushed for that. I haven’t. I could care less cause adding more Feats doesn’t solve the issue. You could start with 1 Heritage Feat and 2 Ancestry feats and we would still have the issue of being forced to go through a Feat tax to play a Half-Elf.
Asuet wrote:
The system Paizo went with in this edition is that you develop your ancestry over time. You might like that or not but it is not special for half-X.
It is actually, I don’t have to spend a...

What he's trying to say, and I don't disagree with him, is that there are Ancestry feats. Those are for ancestry only. Those don't impact class balance. Those are only for your Race.

Now, if you want to play an Elf or a Dwarf just to play an Elf or a Dwarf, and you don't care about "power" then you can play a HalfX the same exact way. You don't care about "power" either way.

But if you want to play an Elf for extra speed, or a Dwarf for extra magic resistance, then there IS a feat tax in nimble and the dwarf feat respectively. Same thing with HalfX, if you want to play a HalfX for power, there's a feat tax to get their (more powerful) future progression.

So:
You either play a race for flavor, in which case you don't care about feat taxes OR
You play a race for some specific Ancestry Feat, in which case the HalfX feat is well within (above even) the rest Ancestry feats.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

That’s the thing though, you can’t play them the exact same way. To play a Half- I have to play a different race and then spend a Feat to play a kinda sorta maybe Half-. Elf and Dwarf? It doesn’t matter what Feat you pick, you get to play an Elf or Dwarf. I just want to play Half-Elves and Half-Orcs like in 1st. That’s it.


Rysky wrote:
That’s the thing though, you can’t play them the exact same way. To play a Half- I have to play a different race and then spend a Feat to play a kinda sorta maybe Half-. Elf and Dwarf? It doesn’t matter what Feat you pick, you get to play an Elf or Dwarf. I just want to play Half-Elves and Half-Orcs like in 1st. That’s it.

If you just want to play a HalfX there's nothing stopping you.

You can do so from level 1.

Let's stop hiding behind our fingers, 95% of the people complaining just want to play a HalfX AND have an extra level 1 race feat, when HalfX already has an inbuilt feat stat wise.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

4 people marked this as a favorite.
doc the grey wrote:


Hell you think that's bad, a Half-Orc can't get darkvision till 5th at the earliest and god forbid you're trying to grab up some proficiencies too. I'm still gobsmacked that if I want to make a Half-Orc Barbarian with an orc double axe & darkvision that they are going to have to be 9th!

Seriously, why the hell can't I just get darkvision at 1st with the trait? Dwarves get it, Goblins get it, just give it to the half-orcs as one of the options.

This, so much this. "I was a poor half orc child, then I killed things and got to see in the dark!"

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Malthraz wrote:
Virellius wrote:

Why can't my half-orc access Orc Weapons at level one? Why does he have to wait FOUR LEVELS to use a weapon he should have grown up knowing about?

It makes 100% no sense.

It's because level 1 characters are no very good at things. Orc weapons are hard.

You think being a half orc teaches sorcerers how to use falchions from level 1? 100% don't agree.

But being another race apparently does teach sorcerers if they're of a different race. All for the cost of a feat.

Dwarves get three weapons

Gnomes? 2

Goblins? 2

Halflings, 3

And elves? They get SIX weapons for a feat.

At first level.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Malthraz wrote:
Virellius wrote:

Why can't my half-orc access Orc Weapons at level one? Why does he have to wait FOUR LEVELS to use a weapon he should have grown up knowing about?

It makes 100% no sense.

It's because level 1 characters are no very good at things. Orc weapons are hard.

You think being a half orc teaches sorcerers how to use falchions from level 1? 100% don't agree.

But being another race apparently does teach sorcerers if they're of a different race. All for the cost of a feat.

Dwarves get three weapons

Gnomes? 2

Goblins? 2

Halflings, 3

And elves? They get SIX weapons for a feat.

At first level.

To be fair, that's more on 3/4 of the halforc options being /meh rather than the HalfX mechanic being bad. Half elves as an example are great.


shroudb wrote:
To be fair, that's more on 3/4 of the halforc options being /meh rather than the HalfX mechanic being bad. Half elves as an example are great.

I'll agree with you that the problem lay not with the mechanic itself, but with the exemplars we've been provided. An ancestry feat for access to additional ancestry lists can work very nicely for a lot of lineage-based concepts. However the initial benefits need to be significant, or else it is just a feat-tax for playing a concept. In addition, the exclusive list it grants needs to contain material a significant cut above the trash most Ancestries currently pad their lists with.

The problem I have is with the exemplars of this new system being lackluster at best, or outright infuriating at worst depending upon your perspective... I don't like either of them mechanically.
On principle, I dislike the current rules because Half-Elves/Orcs are a fairly common, true-breeding hybrid species on Golarion (so much so we know for a fact via Starfinder that half-orcs will eventually out-populate orcs). So instead, I'd prefer to have Half-Elves/Orcs be full Ancestries, with lists that just happen to have some overlap with the Elf & Orc lists, it isn't like there is never going to be any overlap. 1/3rd of ancestries grant already grant a cantrip, and all but humans have some kind of weapon familiarity. Otherwise a small benefit to such ancestries might be choosing which 'side of the family' they take after (and thus which ancestry list they can initially access), and such characters could take a Heritage feat for access to both lists (and some meaningful initial benefits).

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
shroudb wrote:
Rysky wrote:
That’s the thing though, you can’t play them the exact same way. To play a Half- I have to play a different race and then spend a Feat to play a kinda sorta maybe Half-. Elf and Dwarf? It doesn’t matter what Feat you pick, you get to play an Elf or Dwarf. I just want to play Half-Elves and Half-Orcs like in 1st. That’s it.

If you just want to play a HalfX there's nothing stopping you.

You can do so from level 1.

Let's stop hiding behind our fingers, 95% of the people complaining just want to play a HalfX AND have an extra level 1 race feat, when HalfX already has an inbuilt feat stat wise.

You can play a Human who is kinda sorta that Half- by spending a Feat Tax.

And I guess I’m in the 5% (which you shouldn’t go around throwing assumptions like that cause I can safely say that number is a lot bigger) cause I haven’t read any of the Ancestry Feats (aside from Dwarves’ Anceint Blood cause it came up in another thread) outside of what was showcased in the blog. I don’t care about them. Adding more changes nothing. You have to spend a Feat tax to play a semblance of an Ancestry that’s been Core to the game for decades.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

"Core to the game for decades".

What game? Not pathfinder, that's only been around for nine years. D&D? Well, pathfinder is not D&D, nor should it be IMO.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Pathfinder 1 was deliberately designed to be the D&D that you are used to, pretending otherwise is just being deliberately obtuse.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

And PF 2 is trying - with good reason - to move away from that.


Free heritage!!!!!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ed Reppert wrote:
And PF 2 is trying - with good reason - to move away from that.

It's still a d20 class based system. PF2 isn't really any different from the "core" assumptions of D&D than, say, 4th edition is (no this is not a PF2=4e post please do not start that).


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

D&D, if you go back far enough, wasn't a d20 system, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

We’ve had Half-Elves for at least two decades (3rd Edition DnD and Pathfinder), so 2/3 of my life.


Rysky wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Rysky wrote:
That’s the thing though, you can’t play them the exact same way. To play a Half- I have to play a different race and then spend a Feat to play a kinda sorta maybe Half-. Elf and Dwarf? It doesn’t matter what Feat you pick, you get to play an Elf or Dwarf. I just want to play Half-Elves and Half-Orcs like in 1st. That’s it.

If you just want to play a HalfX there's nothing stopping you.

You can do so from level 1.

Let's stop hiding behind our fingers, 95% of the people complaining just want to play a HalfX AND have an extra level 1 race feat, when HalfX already has an inbuilt feat stat wise.

You can play a Human who is kinda sorta that Half- by spending a Feat Tax.

And I guess I’m in the 5% (which you shouldn’t go around throwing assumptions like that cause I can safely say that number is a lot bigger) cause I haven’t read any of the Ancestry Feats (aside from Dwarves’ Anceint Blood cause it came up in another thread) outside of what was showcased in the blog. I don’t care about them. Adding more changes nothing. You have to spend a Feat tax to play a semblance of an Ancestry that’s been Core to the game for decades.

If you're feeling sorta halfX just because it's description is in the same page, that's just you.

If they worked mechanically exactly the same, but were instead in their own subsection, would it change anything?

"oh, halfling is sorta human, just with different abilities and stats, paizo fix please"

I'm throwing assumptions because I haven't seen a single reason to change the half breeds except "but mah feat!"

Even you, you keep saying that they feel "sorta halfX" but you haven't said why.

Just because they are in the same section?

They are mechanically different, with different stats, different ability pools, different abilities, but because they lose a feat, suddenly "they are like humans! Only different, in everything, but still... They are sorta human!"

That's absurd.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
shroudb wrote:
If you're feeling sorta halfX just because it's description is in the same page, that's just you.
No it is very much not as a lot of these boards illustrate. And the book blatantly reinforces this perception since they're not their own ancestries.
shroudb wrote:
If they worked mechanically exactly the same, but were instead in their own subsection, would it change anything?
If they were their own Ancestries? Yes.
shroudb wrote:
"oh, halfling is sorta human, just with different abilities and stats, paizo fix please"
You joke but I wonder what the uproar would have been if they went reverse Dragonlance and removed Halflings and Dwarves and made you play a Gnome and take a Feat to play them.
shroudb wrote:
I'm throwing assumptions because I haven't seen a single reason to change the half breeds except "but mah feat!"
We have provided plenty. The main one being that we want them to be an actual Ancestry like they have been till now.
shroudb wrote:
Even you, you keep saying that they feel "sorta halfX" but you haven't said why.
Because they're not their own Ancestry, they don't have their own section and equal support. In 1st Edition Half-Elves/Orcs had all that. They weren't just a tacked on option for another race. They were their own thing.
shroudb wrote:
Just because they are in the same section?
Yes. They're tacked on options for Humans to take, they're not their own Ancestries.
shroudb wrote:
They are mechanically different, with different stats, different ability pools, different abilities, but because they lose a feat, suddenly "they are like humans! Only different, in everything, but still... They are sorta human!"
... you have to pick Human as your Ancestry and then pick a certain Feat to play them. They are tacked on aesthetics to Humans. They're not mechanically "different", they're mechanical options for Humans to take. They don't have different stats (and I have no idea what you're talking about with "Ability pool"), they don't have different abilities, they're abilities that humans can take. The options as presented are Humans with slight touch ups, because that exactly what they are: A Human that decided to take a Feat.
shroudb wrote:
That's absurd.

Erasing two beloved Races from existence is what's absurd.


Now you behave as if half-x were erased from the game. This is getting ridiculous.

Rysky wrote:
shroudb wrote:
If they worked mechanically exactly the same, but were instead in their own subsection, would it change anything?
If they were their own Ancestries? Yes.

I close my case.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Asuet wrote:
Now you behave as if half-x were erased from the game. This is getting ridiculous.
They pretty much were, and you can attempt to get a bit of them back through a Feat Tax. But they are effectively gone.
Asuet wrote:
Rysky wrote:
shroudb wrote:
If they worked mechanically exactly the same, but were instead in their own subsection, would it change anything?
If they were their own Ancestries? Yes.
I close my case.

??? If Humans and Half-x were mechanically the same and their own Ancestries what's the issue?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Asuet wrote:
Now you behave as if half-x were erased from the game. This is getting ridiculous.
They pretty much were, and you can attempt to get a bit of them back through a Feat Tax. But they are effectively gone.
Asuet wrote:
Rysky wrote:
shroudb wrote:
If they worked mechanically exactly the same, but were instead in their own subsection, would it change anything?
If they were their own Ancestries? Yes.
I close my case.
??? If Humans and Half-x were mechanically the same and their own Ancestries what's the issue?

Just to get on the same page here.

If half elves (as an example) were on a different page, with the starting stats of current half elves, with a "drawback" of no level 1 ancestry feat and a benefit of "choice 2 put of 4 bonuses" and a list of Ancestry feats that had their own unique ones, the human, and the elven, you'd be OK?

Basically, your issue is the book format?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
shroudb wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Asuet wrote:
Now you behave as if half-x were erased from the game. This is getting ridiculous.
They pretty much were, and you can attempt to get a bit of them back through a Feat Tax. But they are effectively gone.
Asuet wrote:
Rysky wrote:
shroudb wrote:
If they worked mechanically exactly the same, but were instead in their own subsection, would it change anything?
If they were their own Ancestries? Yes.
I close my case.
??? If Humans and Half-x were mechanically the same and their own Ancestries what's the issue?

Just to get on the same page here.

If half elves (as an example) were on a different page, with the starting stats of current half elves, with a "drawback" of no level 1 ancestry feat and a benefit of "choice 2 put of 4 bonuses" and a list of Ancestry feats that had their own unique ones, the human, and the elven, you'd be OK?

Basically, your issue is the book format?

Since the book "formats" them as not actually being an Ancestry, yes, that would be better but still not idea. I want them both to be well supported Ancestries.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

To put it laconically: I want Half-Elves and Half-Orcs to be their own Ancestries like the others. I don't care about the mechanics.


Rysky wrote:
To put it laconically: I want Half-Elves and Half-Orcs to be their own Ancestries like the others. I don't care about the mechanics.

But what is an ancestry?

It is history/lore, which they have, speed HP and vision, which they have, and a list of ancestral feats, which they too have.

So it really is just a formating of the book at this point, and not an ancestry/mechanics issue.

101 to 150 of 171 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Player Rules / Ancestries & Backgrounds / Half-Orc / Half-Elf All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.