No summoning allies for demons / devils any more?


Monsters and Hazards

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I just downloaded the bestiary and went straight to my favourite beasties. I see the demons and devils have Abyssal/ Infernal pact and can have allies, but it's a ritual with "Casting: 1 day"

Does this mean no more SLA allies plopping in?

Dark Archive

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I'd assume its because previously fiends could have summoned another fiend who in hour was able to summon another fiend who in another hour- you get what I mean.

I think they lowered it to day so that fiends still can summon other fiends exponentially, but its not as ridiculous as if they did it hourly

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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I'd like them to be able to summon in combat again though.


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Unless I am missing something, that has been removed since any creature summoned is unable to summon any other creatures, create things of value or cast spells that require an expensive material component or special focus. Summoned, Rule book pg 194.

K-Ray

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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Summoned ones can't summon more - that was also so since at least 3.0. I mean if you bump into an actual demon or devil, on its home turf or called/ gated in - then you knew its friends would not be far off. It was a classic in the old Dungeon APs - "Oh look, a Vrock..."

plop! plop!

"Hey, they're dancing..."

Has that been removed completely? If so, fair enough, just add more to encounters. I'm curious as to why, and still want to check if the CR (level) has been adjusted accordingly. Keep forgetting though.


carborundum wrote:
I'd like them to be able to summon in combat again though.

The more I reflect on this, the more odd it seems to me to have been changed the way it is.

I think I can see the rationale for removing the in-combat summoning, if the intent is presumably to remove randomness and keep encounter challenge levels flat.

However, it then seems weird to include it as not only an out of encounter event, but one that includes a random chance of going awry. It almost comes across as a mini-game for the GM to play solo before an encounter with PCs. ("The PCs are going to be reaching the demon's lair today, so I'll roll to see if he is able to successfully summon allies that will make the encounter more difficult. Oh- he critically failed, now the PCs will find him in the midst of/victim of a demonic attack!")

It just feels unnecessary, now. Again, if the intent is to make challenges flat, then the addition or lack of other demons should be considered in the encounter design process (by setting the challenge level and xp and selecting the monsters accordingly), and not bothering with the Abyssal Pact ritual at all.

If there still is some intent on keeping a degree of randomness, on the other hand, Abyssal Pact should be able to be used in combat.

Otherwise, Abyssal Pact seems rather extraneous (unless it will eventually be opened up to PC usage through a feat or some means of emulating being a demon?).

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I like the idea of the Pact - the DM can choose the allies from a much broader list than the two or three specified in previous editions. This can be nicely tailored to terrain/ mission/ general tricksiness.

Suggestion: Just add a line to the Abyssal/ Infernal pacts that allows the summoning of the contracted allies as an activity taking two or three actions. That's what I'm doing :D


carborundum wrote:
I like the idea of the Pact - the DM can choose the allies from a much broader list than the two or three specified in previous editions. This can be nicely tailored to terrain/ mission/ general tricksiness.

That part I'm fine with- expanding the range of possible demon allies. But I don't see where Abyssal Pact needs to be statted out as a ritual to do so. Either just say they have an ability where they can possibly have other demonic allies, or (better yet) just note it in the text, and say that the GM should select the type of demons based on the encounter's Difficulty Level.

Quote:
Suggestion: Just add a line to the Abyssal/ Infernal pacts that allows the summoning of the contracted allies as an activity taking two or three actions. That's what I'm doing :D

That's really what I'd prefer. It gives the flavor of prior editions to demons, and lends some degree of utility to Abyssal Pact.

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