Deities should be statted out, and no, they won’t be beatable, because they’ll have variable statistics.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


What are variable statistics, you ask? I’ll tell you.

You have a base level of statistics, that are used when the strongest non-variable statistics entity in the situation, regardless of whether they are an enemy, ally, or neutral, is at most a certain maximum CR, which varies from one variable statistics creature to the next. The CR of this base statistics though will be at least 20 CR higher than the maximum CR allowed for the non-variable statistics entity involved.

After that, there will be the variable statistics changes listed. Say every 2 CR above the maximum a non-variable statistics entity involved is, the creature gains 10 HD, for evey 3 CR higher, it gains +5 to every ability score.

Stuff like that, which will make it flat out impossible for anyone who isn’t also a variable statistics to ever beat them.

Even if you are gestalted level 100, Mythic Tier 10, you still won’t beat a variable statistics creature, cause they could have well over 1000 HD, and triple digits for every ability score modifier, just for instance.

Note, this isn’t exact. I’m not a game designer, so I don’t know if this would be enough to make it impossible to beat them, I just know that this basic idea, when done right by someone who is a game designer, would mean no matter what, you can never beat them.

This would allow the deities to be statted out, thus satisfying the needs of everyone who wants to use them, without allowing them to be beaten by players.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What would be the point then? You're printing stats just to say "no, those aren't the real stats"? The gods already have a level of whatever the GM says they are. They can do what the GM says they can. Gods aren't characters, they are plot.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
What would be the point then? You're printing stats just to say "no, those aren't the real stats"? The gods already have a level of whatever the GM says they are. They can do what the GM says they can. Gods aren't characters, they are plot.

What’s the point of statting CR 30 monsters, which would require you to be a higher than level 20 character to beat, if the game isn’t designed for you to go above level 20?

The point is that people want those stats, even if they can’t ever overcome them. And the variable statistics is their real stats. Deities in real life lore have infinite power, this is a way to represent that.


Isn't it enough to say they have infinite power? That seems like a good enough stat block to me.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If it has stats, you can kill it.


Dave Justus wrote:
If it has stats, you can kill it.

To refer to another game, 999/999/999/999/999/999 stats will stop neither Toxic nor F.E.A.R


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Sure, we can give deities a state block. It will be like Caine's stat block in Vampire the Masquerade. It only needs to say "You loose"

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As for the game not intending to be played past level 20, remember there is a section in the Core Rulebook about going past level 20. It may have never been fleshed out, but there are some rules for it.


Dave Justus wrote:
If it has stats, you can kill it.

Okay. Prove it. Take any quasi/demi deity that has been statted, for example, an Archdevil or Empyreal Lord, and make a player character whose level is 20 lower than their CR, since a player’s CR is equal to level.

You are allowed to increase the level by as much as you want, but for every level, the “deity” gets +10 fast healing, +10 SR (until it reaches SR 100, then it instead is immunity to anything that has spell resistance), +10 DR/Epic (until it reaches DR 50/Epic then it becomes DR 50/- and the increase is now +10 DR/-) and +10 to all resistances (except the things it is already immune to of course, and when it becomes resistance 100, it instead becomes immunity), for every 2 levels, it gets 10 more HD, including everything that comes with an increase to HD, and for every 3 levels, it increases every ability score by 5.

Go ahead and make a build that can beat this. Oh, and because technically Mythic is an option to players, you can have up to 10 Tiers in Mythic, but for every two tiers, your CR increases by 1 (mininum increase of 1), which could cause your opponent to become stronger. However, no more Mythic Tiers than half your level, because it doesn’t make sense for, say, a level 5 character to have 10 Mythic Tiers, for example, which I’m sure you can agree to.

I’ll be awaiting your build and the opponent you choose. I’ll stat up the opponent though if they get an increase.


Or we could not, and say we did.


Just a friendly reminder to adjust CR if somebody shows up with reduced wealth and or using an NPC class.


This thread would be a lot better if it wasnt directly next to a thread about a group wanting to assault and destroy Heaven


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Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
If it has stats, you can kill it.

Okay. Prove it. Take any quasi/demi deity that has been statted, for example, an Archdevil or Empyreal Lord, and make a player character whose level is 20 lower than their CR, since a player’s CR is equal to level.

You are allowed to increase the level by as much as you want, but for every level, the “deity” gets +10 fast healing, +10 SR (until it reaches SR 100, then it instead is immunity to anything that has spell resistance), +10 DR/Epic (until it reaches DR 50/Epic then it becomes DR 50/- and the increase is now +10 DR/-) and +10 to all resistances (except the things it is already immune to of course, and when it becomes resistance 100, it instead becomes immunity), for every 2 levels, it gets 10 more HD, including everything that comes with an increase to HD, and for every 3 levels, it increases every ability score by 5.

Go ahead and make a build that can beat this. Oh, and because technically Mythic is an option to players, you can have up to 10 Tiers in Mythic, but for every two tiers, your CR increases by 1 (mininum increase of 1), which could cause your opponent to become stronger. However, no more Mythic Tiers than half your level, because it doesn’t make sense for, say, a level 5 character to have 10 Mythic Tiers, for example, which I’m sure you can agree to.

I’ll be awaiting your build and the opponent you choose. I’ll stat up the opponent though if they get an increase.

Games tend to have holes in them due to unintended stacking allowances that let you create things like the old 3.5 Pun Pun character, and anything with a statblock has a chance to fall prey to those.

Also if Paizo makes the deity they're not going to try to cover every loophole, and some splat will allow a player to use some unexpected combo.

Of course the GM can just make up something on the fly to say "nope that doesn't work", and that is exactly why no stats are needed. If players want their deities to be defeated they can make their own stats up. Using the most powerful monster as a base can be the start. And if the GM is just going to have moving stats they can do that without Paizo's help.

Another reason why this doesn't need to be done:

Most groups never even think of taking on actual deities, and that was even in 3.5 when gods had stats so it would be a wasted of time, and printed paper. Many also never reached the level of power needed to defeat anything better than a deity with a rank of 1, which was only a minor deity, and still was around a CR25 to 27 range encounter.

edit: There's no point in having stats for the sake of having stats is basically what I'm getting at.

If you do want deities to be able to lose you can just give them whatever stats you want based on your game or even just use some powerful monster and reflavor it while changing a few abilities so the players don't catch on.


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Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
If it has stats, you can kill it.

Okay. Prove it. Take any quasi/demi deity that has been statted, for example, an Archdevil or Empyreal Lord, and make a player character whose level is 20 lower than their CR, since a player’s CR is equal to level.

You are allowed to increase the level by as much as you want, but for every level, the “deity” gets +10 fast healing, +10 SR (until it reaches SR 100, then it instead is immunity to anything that has spell resistance), +10 DR/Epic (until it reaches DR 50/Epic then it becomes DR 50/- and the increase is now +10 DR/-) and +10 to all resistances (except the things it is already immune to of course, and when it becomes resistance 100, it instead becomes immunity), for every 2 levels, it gets 10 more HD, including everything that comes with an increase to HD, and for every 3 levels, it increases every ability score by 5.

Go ahead and make a build that can beat this. Oh, and because technically Mythic is an option to players, you can have up to 10 Tiers in Mythic, but for every two tiers, your CR increases by 1 (mininum increase of 1), which could cause your opponent to become stronger. However, no more Mythic Tiers than half your level, because it doesn’t make sense for, say, a level 5 character to have 10 Mythic Tiers, for example, which I’m sure you can agree to.

I’ll be awaiting your build and the opponent you choose. I’ll stat up the opponent though if they get an increase.

First of all, people are really clever, given time. I reject your proposal to create a single PC, and instead I choose 6144 level 5 casters, which is a CR of 30. You can have https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/archdevi l/archdevil-belial/ and that comes out to 22 CR "increases", so 220 fast healing, immunity to all spells, elements, etc. DR 240/-. 110 extra HD (d10's) with the bonus from his 35 extra Con from your other absurd/arbitrary guidelines gives him an extra 4235HP, so we'll say 5k health overall.

6144 Casters each summon 1 lantern archon each turn with Summon Monster 3. Lantern Archon's will only hit him with a 20, so that's an average of 307 hits per turn with their Light Ray, for 1d6 damage that bypasses LITERALLY EVERYTHING. Average of 1075 damage for the first turn, doubled the next turn, maxing out at 5376 damage by the fifth turn. He's dead. Even with insane statblocks, you don't want to pit yourself against the cheesiest and brightest in the game (of which I am absolutely not one of).

Second of all, as has been pointed out, what's the point? The only way you can guarantee an unkillable god is to give them stats that make statting irrelevant. Immunity to everything? That's not really a statblock, that's just a longer way of saying "Eh, there's no stat block. I mean, I guess there can be one. Fine, he has infinite of everything useful, and zero of anything that could be harmful to himself. And regeneration (nothing), so if he is defeated he regenerates eventually and nothing can stop it. And a contingency spell which obliterates the universe if he could ever come close to dying. And..." you (hopefully) see the point. Or the lack of one. Either play the game as it's meant to be played, with guidelines that let you fudge things that need to be fudged, or tie yourself down with rules so strict that they would takes hundreds of books to contain.


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Again, if you want stats to exist for a deity but you want that deity to be impossible to beat it only needs to say "You lose".

Anything else is simply disingenuous. Giving it stats gives the suggestion that you can beat it. Giving it variable stats is like saying, "I don't want you to ever have a chance, bit I'll pretend like you do". Just be honest and say no in the first place.


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And somebody laser spammed while I was busy thinking up something involving Ratfolk, Leadership, and Tower Shields.


If you absolutely must have a stat block for a deity I suggest something like the Primal Order supplement put out by Wizards of the Cost. This was written before they bought TSR and acquired Dungeons & Dragons. The system was actually fairly interesting and worked well. It did not matter how powerful a mortal was because the only thing that could actually harm a deity was primal power. Mortals were unable to gain primal power, and if they did by definition they were no longer mortal. Sure you could defeat the avatar of a deity but other than having to use some of your primal power to create a new avatar it really did not make that much difference.


awbattles wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
If it has stats, you can kill it.

Okay. Prove it. Take any quasi/demi deity that has been statted, for example, an Archdevil or Empyreal Lord, and make a player character whose level is 20 lower than their CR, since a player’s CR is equal to level.

You are allowed to increase the level by as much as you want, but for every level, the “deity” gets +10 fast healing, +10 SR (until it reaches SR 100, then it instead is immunity to anything that has spell resistance), +10 DR/Epic (until it reaches DR 50/Epic then it becomes DR 50/- and the increase is now +10 DR/-) and +10 to all resistances (except the things it is already immune to of course, and when it becomes resistance 100, it instead becomes immunity), for every 2 levels, it gets 10 more HD, including everything that comes with an increase to HD, and for every 3 levels, it increases every ability score by 5.

Go ahead and make a build that can beat this. Oh, and because technically Mythic is an option to players, you can have up to 10 Tiers in Mythic, but for every two tiers, your CR increases by 1 (mininum increase of 1), which could cause your opponent to become stronger. However, no more Mythic Tiers than half your level, because it doesn’t make sense for, say, a level 5 character to have 10 Mythic Tiers, for example, which I’m sure you can agree to.

I’ll be awaiting your build and the opponent you choose. I’ll stat up the opponent though if they get an increase.

First of all, people are really clever, given time. I reject your proposal to create a single PC, and instead I choose 6144 level 5 casters, which is a CR of 30. You can have https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/archdevi l/archdevil-belial/ and that comes out to 22 CR "increases", so 220 fast healing, immunity to all spells, elements, etc. DR 240/-. 110 extra HD (d10's) with the bonus from his 35 extra Con from your other absurd/arbitrary guidelines gives him an extra 4235HP, so we'll say 5k...

1: That’s not a legal build. A legal build is only one character. Say I believe you somehow got 6143 level 5 casters to follow YOUR SINGLE level 5 caster. The myths about deities are enough by themselves to cause all of them to literally drop everything and run from fear, because no sane level 5 caster thinks they can take deity. You now have a single level 5 caster.

2: Can’t cast spells.

Baleful Beauty wrote:
No matter what form Belial takes, the archdevil can adopt an aspect of unearthly beauty, causing either all humanoids (if in a humanoid form or the archdevil’s true form) or all creatures of the archdevil’s assumed type (if in another form) within 30 feet with line of sight to Belial to be filled with lust for them. Such a creature rushes toward the splendid figure to kiss the archdevil on its next turn, subjecting itself to the effects of Belial’s caress. Alternatively, the archdevil can adopt a guise of extreme and appalling horror, causing creatures of that type to become nauseated for 1d6 rounds and to take 1d6 points of Strength damage. A creature can resist either effect with a successful DC 39 Will save, and a creature that successfully saves against either effect is immune to that effect for 24 hours, though it must attempt a new save against the opposite effect. This is a mind-affecting emotion effect. The DC is Charisma-based.


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I believe the initial claim was that something with stats could be killed, not that a single character could do if from a 30' distance. If you get to move the goal posts then of course you can always win.


A single iron colossus could kill all those thousands of level 5 casters. Also I agree with what people are saying: There's no point in giving something stats if your just gonna make it impossible to beat anyway.


Java Man wrote:
I believe the initial claim was that something with stats could be killed, not that a single character could do if from a 30' distance. If you get to move the goal posts then of course you can always win.

No the initial claim was “If it has stats, you can kill it.” You is singular. If it was meant to be plural, it would would have said people.


In english 'you' can be singular or plural.

Edit: nevermind, no longer certain why I came here, happy gaming to all!


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
No the initial claim was “If it has stats, you can kill it.” You is singular. If it was meant to be plural, it would would have said people.

In American English "you" is both the second-person singular and the second-person plural pronoun.

"Person" is a noun, not a pronoun.

So the sentence can be read as 'you (plural)' can kill it, or 'you (singular)' can kill it.

There's no need to use a noun in that sentence. Pronouns work just fine.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You (singular, if you're wondering) were proven wrong, Reksew. Besides, you're initial premise was flawed. Your rules are confusing, because you seem to indicate that we have to use a PC of 20 levels lower than the archdevik, and if we don't, increase the devil by your extremely sloppily eyeballed method of powering up the devil.
I can get behind stating the deities at various power levels, something like least, lesser, greater, and true aspects or avatars. The Least I can see as being roughly as powerful as the heralds, say 15 for lesser gods, increase CR by 2 per rank of deity, lesser start at 20, and so forth. They can't be perma-killed like that, but it's almost certainly going to mess up their plans, maybe keep them from manifesting an avatar on that world for 100 years or so


I cant believe we have to tell someone that you can be plural when he uses it as plural in the first post.

You have all done a great job showing why it's a mistake to just stay things in this game for the sake of stats.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Java Man wrote:
I believe the initial claim was that something with stats could be killed, not that a single character could do if from a 30' distance. If you get to move the goal posts then of course you can always win.
No the initial claim was “If it has stats, you can kill it.” You is singular. If it was meant to be plural, it would would have said people.

I mean if you want to be that fastidiously literal about it, "you" would be referring to you, the real person. I'm reasonably certain that you are capable of writing big enough numbers on a piece of paper to kill any statted being in Pathfinder.


So, to expand upon what I said earlier, the whole exercize is pointless. Either the stats have a hole in them that allows the god to be killed my a clever character, or they are too powerful to ever kill.

If they can be killed through some loophole, then the exercize of statting them is pointless. Assuming of course, the premise that these gods are statted AND unbeatable.

If they cannot be killed, then the exercize is also pointless because it is the same as writing "You Lose" within the description box.

Either way, the time and energy put into statting the gods becomes a waste. The only time its appropriate to stat gods is when you plan on allowing them to be killed.


How does one stat out a CR infinite creature?


doomman47 wrote:
How does one stat out a CR infinite creature?

The previously mentioned Cain statblock that consists of "You lose"


I smell cheese.

Standardly, when "you" is used in a piece of mechanics, it refers to the bearer of that piece (e.g. feats). So one could argue a statblock that consists of "you lose" is referring to the creature itself.

I am well aware this is not the intent, but I'm pretty sure nothing I would consider posting in this thread would be following intent either.


The grammar arguments about you are pointless anyways. Leadership is a feat so any of the followers and cohorts gained by the feat would be considered part of the “Character”. Although most GM’s would probably disallow chained leadership I don’t recall an actual rule against it. The characters Cohort could also take leadership to gain his own followers and cohort. The Cohort’s cohort can also take leadership to gain even more followers.

Also part of the character is his wealth. Since paying for the services of a spell caster is also in the rules nothing would prevent the character from using most of his wealth to hire the services of a spell caster. Since the hired spell caster also gets feats he can also take leadership.

I seem to recall that there was a exploit that allowed you to get a cohort of equal to your own level. If this was allowed you could actually gain infinite cohorts and followers. Combine this with hiring a spell caster and you can have an unlimited number of casters as part of a single character. So now you have an infinite number of 20th level casters who have an all have 2 6th level and 2 5th level casters as follower. Technically all of these characters are part of a single "character".

This is something that no sane GM would ever allow, but it shows why deities should not have normal stats blocks.


Noble Scion PrC wrote:
Greater Leadership (Ex): At 2nd level, a noble scion gains the Leadership feat as a bonus feat. He can recruit a cohort up to one level lower than himself. At 10th level, he can recruit a cohort of the same level as himself.

The chaining is probably an exploit, but the higher-leveled cohort is fully intended.


"I have an idea! Let's give a deity stats. Then, if my players make characters that can beat it, I'll just arbitrarily raise all of its stats to a million. Can you survive a +1,000,000 Everyone-Bane Vorpal Iwin longsword (1,000,000d6 + 5,000,000/2-20/x500,000)? I didn't think so."

How is this different from not having stats again?


Malachandra wrote:

"I have an idea! Let's give a deity stats. Then, if my players make characters that can beat it, I'll just arbitrarily raise all of its stats to a million. Can you survive a +1,000,000 Everyone-Bane Vorpal Iwin longsword (1,000,000d6 + 5,000,000/2-20/x500,000)? I didn't think so."

How is this different from not having stats again?

You can sell a book of arbitrarily scaling stat blocks to rubes. Can't sell no stats (or if you can, you are clearly the king of salesmen and better served elsewhere)


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You can also abuse certain other stats, and assuming the Golarion-verse, abuse wording too. I made a witch that abused the fact that there's a quasit witch in RotR book 1. Since both the Abyss and the Material plane are canonically stated in The Great Beyond sourcebook as being infinite, there are an infinite number of CE souls that would become an infinite number of lvl 1 quasit witches with the coven hex.
Since outsiders do not need to eat, drink or sleep, you grab a simple air freshening magic item and stuff as many quasit witches as you need to into bags of holding and slip one of your prehensile hairs into it so you're within 30ft of them so the coven hex functions.
Grab more bags of holding with more quasits until you've reached the numbers you need/want (I got up to several million).

Then, with your Caster Level of XXXXXXXX, cast numerological evocation, choosing one of the elemental damage types that has no immunity because it doesn't exist anywhere but that spell such as 'water' or 'earth', modify the range to whatever you want, and the damage to whatever you want, because it has no caster level cap.

Congrats, you can kill anything with HP. You can bore a hole right through the planet if you want, with your massive spell laser as a walking witch Death Star.

This is why you don't give things stats if you don't want them to die. Because there's always going to be a fiddly little rule somewhere that an author forgot to cap, or didn't think through with the other 100+ books that have things it could combo with.


Your hair doesn't count as you occupying a square.


Someone get the Neutronium Golem in here to show how stupid we can get with the numbers.


As others have said if you can stat a creature then it is defeatable by someone(s) or something(s) or it is pointless endeavour to give them stats. Then there's the whole stats don't cover every thing wrinkle.

You said it yourself one option is to attack and destroy the 'variable stat creature' with another one ... all I need to do is ensure they meet each other. Ssomething that doesn't necessarily require any stats at all on my part.

As I tried a long time ago to explain to a friend it doesn't really matter how strong or healthy or what not you are the GM can ultimately scale everything and anything to give you a challenge (or not if so desired). Numbers are just that a number. Your 5th level character can have 5, 50, 5,000 or 5,000,000,000,000 hit points my challenges and monsters will scale to keep the game fun and interesting (albeit it might drive me nuts trying to do so for the last entirely hypothetical character).

If you feel it is not pointless to stat out an invincible deity what is the point of doing so in your opinion? What is it you hope to accomplish? Is it so you can via game mechanics say how far the deity could throw a boulder (or house or 'blank') compare to other beings or who can outrun who etc., etc..


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Statting things you aren't intended to beat is a massive waste of time and design space.

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