2) there are many ways to destroy archers (wind, cover etc) bit almost no ways to block melee ( and attack while doin so)
Well, good. I'm glad Crane Wing is compensating for all the ways to hurt archers but not melee fighters.
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It seem you fail to understand the true power of it ....
I am a cavalier - order of the dragon, helpfull honor guard .
With body guard and combat reflexes I boost my area with +6 to AC
At normal rounds I use swift aid to boost the to hit of the big fighter.
All around me also get some AC because I use the hafling feats that grant 2 to AC all around.
Now, I take a level as a monk - getting the crane wing . I can still aid on the defence...
Now all are defended at + 6 and I can block and have super AC.
It is true - I don't do any damage - but I boost every one and protect All around me.
Later on ill take one level of unbreakable fighter to move the AC boost into DR .Last thing , as team feat I took broken wing gambit, with tactiction all also provoke.
We have hinderces - we need to stAck so fire ball will hurt - but vs melee ?
I am a mega tank!I do not see how you are gaining +6 to all adjacent allies as a base bonus.
The AC (Luck) Bonus is Based off Fighting Defensively/Total Defense Action.
With Crane Style, 3 Ranks in Acrobatics, and Cautious Fighter, that is a total of a 6 AC (Dodge) bonus, which is halved to the +3 AC (Luck) Bonus to Adjacent Allies.
Bodyguard is using your Attack of Opportunities to grant the Aid Another bonus to melee attacks of your now base 3 (Order of the Dragon) + 1 (Honor Guard).
So with your Attacks of Opportunity, you can possibly give allies a +7 AC, but it is very dependent on if you have enough Dexterity to make continual Attacks of Opportunity. If you have a whole rain of arrows or many cretures with multiple attacks, then your bonus drop dramatically.
You missed another 2 from helpfull...
So it's 3 AOO per round for total of 9 AC to people around while you keep high AC and deflect.
Not bad.
Alright, that's pretty cool. You've built a character that dips into several martial classes and spends all your feats to be a super hard target and make your party harder to kill as well. Grats! Meanwhile, the plain-jane vanilla base wizard did all that through crowd controlling the mooks with black tentacles, hit the BBEG with feeblemind and ennervation, buffed your side with haste and heroism, debuffed the bad guyd with slow, dropped the most dangerous enemy in a pit that's now eating him, and did it all in complete safety from being flying and invisible.
With all the feats left over from not needing anything beyond spells, this wizard can craft magic gear for half cost and get wand-using improved familiars to bask in extra action economy.
I'll say again: if you are bothered by crane wing you are a bad DM and should feel bad.
Had a player in my group with monk of many styles with crane style. It wasn't over powered. It might be frustrating to GM that wants to damage the monk but the monk was no threat. By the time we hit higher level that problem was no longer an issue most of the time due to multiple attacks.
I don't think it's too good. The earliest you can get Crane Wing at level 2 with the Master of Many Styles as you need to use you first feat selection to choose Crane Style before you can take Crane Wing. All other monk need to 5th level before taking it. Other classes need need to spend 4 feats to get and need +2 then +5 BAB. So a fighter could do it at 5th level other classes would probably need to wait till 7th unless you human. To do this the Monk of Many styles looses FOB, the other classes are using up feats they would use for other things.
Really it's not over powered at all for the most part. I'm sure some multiclass combo could prove a tad over powered, haven't really looked into it though but just off the top of my head 4 level of monk of many style with Fight Aldori Dueling archetype could be interesting.
Best way to block melee: throw em in a pit.
-Some Caster
As for the comparison to deflect arrows : it got nothing to do with it..
1) arrows do a lot less damage per hit and normally arrive in a volley
True to a point, but by the time you have the full volley of arrows odds are you also have more than one melee attack per round . Vital Strike is a niche example and usable with ranged weapons as well as melee weapons, after all.
2) there are many ways to destroy archers (wind, cover etc) bit almost no ways to block melee ( and attack while doin so)
A competent archer will be able to hit you irregardless of cover. Wind is definitely a potent counter, but that is one very specific spell to avoid archers and most GMs are reluctant to use Wind Wall because it neuters the entire concept completely. Apart from wind, as long as an archer can see you he can put rounds on target.
Conversely, the melee guy has to deal with difficult terrain, enemies in the way, attacks of opportunity possibly including trips and disarms, and the fact that he has to be in range of whatever it is he's trying to hurt - which is often a really bad idea. Finally, while he is trying to get there he is spending move actions which means he won't be able to do a full attack unless he has a clear charge lane and Pounce.
Arguing that archery is worse than melee because its easier to counter archers is... Well, let's go with "optimistic".
Calling Crane Wing broken is laughable. Have you even seen full casters? If anything Monks need a huge buff, not removing the few abilities that are actually good.
If you really have a problem with it I recommend playing Ars Magica. Then you don't have to worry about those pesky, broken, melee classes.
I'm currently playing a scout rogue who has combined Knockout Artist and Sap Master with Crane Style. He has all the feats in both chains at 7th level, except Crane Riposte (not high enough yet). He generally fights unarmed, and combines a brutal nonlethal sneak-attack based offense with an extremely solid defense, both in AC and CMD.
He's still, you know, a rogue. Fighting defensively all the time sometimes makes it hard to hit things. It's only a -2, but a 3/4 BAB needs all the help it can get. He's reliant on sneak attack positioning. (He can use charges, thanks to being a scout, but that means he can't fight defensively.) If he's caught unawares, he doesn't have all that many hit points. Fortitude and Will saves aren't that great. But he is very capable of one-shotting foes, and hard to hit besides.
He fights next to a Titan Mauler barbarian/Lore Warden fighter. Modeled off Cloud, he fights with a greatsword in one hand, and unarmed in the other hand, for Crane Wing. He's a combat maneuver beast, and not just because he can Crane Wing away any AoOs provoked when trying to use maneuvers he doesn't have the feat for. And if all else fails, he can stab things to death with the greatsword.
They are a fairly powerful duo, and we give the DM fits sometimes.
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I don't think it's too good. The earliest you can get Crane Wing at level 2 with the Master of Many Styles as you need to use you first feat selection to choose Crane Style before you can take Crane Wing. All other monk need to 5th level before taking it. Other classes need need to spend 4 feats to get and need +2 then +5 BAB. So a fighter could do it at 5th level other classes would probably need to wait till 7th unless you human. To do this the Monk of Many styles looses FOB, the other classes are using up feats they would use for other things.
Master of Many Styles
Level 1
Base 1 - Crane Style (prereq Level 1 Monk)
Archetype 1 - Crane Wing
Level 2
Archetype 2 - Crane Riposte for counterattack, or Snake Style for second chance negate (note that many ki abilities uses swift actions, so you might have trouble activating stuff while using Snake Style's immediate action)
There is your setup.
For that privilege, you can take a -2 on all your attacks with your 0 BAB,
It's actually worss than that. Fighting Defensively is a -4 penalty to attack for a +2 bonus to AC.
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.
Fighting Defensively is a pretty strong hit to your offense, and really only useful if you're taking massive incoming attacks and focusing on surviving while the rest of your team handles offense.
Lord Pendragon, Crane Style makes it a -2 to attack for a +3 to defense.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 1st.
Benefit: You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
Once you hit third level, your mandatory 3 ranks in Acrobatics improve it to +4 AC. Once you get Crane Riposte, it becomes only a -1 to attack.
I think crane style is pretty awesome.
I also don't think it's overpowered.
For my money, it just gives fighters a DIFFERENT means of circumventing damage other than carrying a shield. One that is, all things being equal, much more resource intensive.
I think it's pretty hot for a swashbuckler though.
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I just don't see why so many crap blood over Crane Wing.
It's a defensive option, that requires investment.
I have seen this in use during game, and the whole stayed together.
No worlds collided. No campaigns destroyed. No one fell to the ground and seized at the sight of it used.
Sometimes, you have to see it in action, before you have an aneurysm, and blow it way out of proportion.
It's Deflect Arrows, for melee.
That's it.
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It seem you fail to understand the true power of it ....
I am a cavalier - order of the dragon, helpfull honor guard .
With body guard and combat reflexes I boost my area with +6 to AC
At normal rounds I use swift aid to boost the to hit of the big fighter.
All around me also get some AC because I use the hafling feats that grant 2 to AC all around.
Now, I take a level as a monk - getting the crane wing . I can still aid on the defence...
Now all are defended at + 6 and I can block and have super AC.
It is true - I don't do any damage - but I boost every one and protect All around me.
Later on ill take one level of unbreakable fighter to move the AC boost into DR .Last thing , as team feat I took broken wing gambit, with tactiction all also provoke.
We have hinderces - we need to stAck so fire ball will hurt - but vs melee ?
I am a mega tank!I do not see how you are gaining +6 to all adjacent allies as a base bonus.
The AC (Luck) Bonus is Based off Fighting Defensively/Total Defense Action.
With Crane Style, 3 Ranks in Acrobatics, and Cautious Fighter, that is a total of a 6 AC (Dodge) bonus, which is halved to the +3 AC (Luck) Bonus to Adjacent Allies.
Bodyguard is using your Attack of Opportunities to grant the Aid Another bonus to melee attacks of your now base 3 (Order of the Dragon) + 1 (Honor Guard).
So with your Attacks of Opportunity, you can possibly give allies a +7 AC, but it is very dependent on if you have enough Dexterity to make continual Attacks of Opportunity. If you have a whole rain of arrows or many cretures with multiple attacks, then your bonus drop dramatically.
You missed another 2 from helpfull...
So it's 3 AOO per round for total of 9 AC to people around while you keep high AC and deflect.
Not bad.
helpful and order of the dragon dont stack
dragon makes it 3 (its not a +1 it resets the number), helpful makes it 4 (also ressets the number)
i do the bodyguard thing for 10, and my mount does it for 9. (1 mor each if i spend a move action to activate a battle herald ability)
if you can cast litany of defense it gets better
swift aid resets the 2 (4 if helpful, 3 if dragon order) to 1. the bodyguard cavalier ability for +1 stacks, so will the bonus from benevolent armor
your 7 is actually a 5 (2 swift aid for ac, 1 for attacks)
aid anothers from other creatures stack, but not from the same creature (no swift aid, and bodyguard stack)
I don't think it's too good. The earliest you can get Crane Wing at level 2 with the Master of Many Styles as you need to use you first feat selection to choose Crane Style before you can take Crane Wing. All other monk need to 5th level before taking it. Other classes need need to spend 4 feats to get and need +2 then +5 BAB. So a fighter could do it at 5th level other classes would probably need to wait till 7th unless you human. To do this the Monk of Many styles looses FOB, the other classes are using up feats they would use for other things.Master of Many Styles
Level 1
Base 1 - Crane Style (prereq Level 1 Monk)
Archetype 1 - Crane WingLevel 2
Archetype 2 - Crane Riposte for counterattack, or Snake Style for second chance negate (note that many ki abilities uses swift actions, so you might have trouble activating stuff while using Snake Style's immediate action)There is your setup.
Well, there is some legitimate debate about what you did with that level 1. You see, crane wing has the following prerequisites: Improved unarmed strike, Dodge, Monk 1 or bab +2. The problem comes here: you need improved unarmed strike to qualify for crane style, and you need crane style to qualify for crane wing through your archetype feat.
But your archetype feat is a bonus feat for Master of Many styles monks. So is improved unarmed strike though. While it might seem like semantics, it is a legitimate question: which comes first, your class abilities and bonus feats or your first level feat. Looking at crane style's prereqs, or at power attack, which needs bab +1, it would be fairly safe to assume class stuff comes first. So you might not be able to use your level feat to qualify for a class feat since you need class feats to qualify for that level feat. It is like needing to use a key to unlock a box, but it is locked in the box.
Now, admittedly, there are few rules about the 'order of operations' here, and most would handwave this contradiction. Still, it is important to be aware of it as a possible objection.
Wait, you guys are taking crane style with your monks? I thought it was exclusively for halfling fighters (brawler).
Lord Pendragon, Crane Style makes it a -2 to attack for a +3 to defense...Once you hit third level, your mandatory 3 ranks in Acrobatics improve it to +4 AC. Once you get Crane Riposte, it becomes only a -1 to attack.
D'oh! I stand corrected!
Is it anymore fantastic or amazing than a fighter killing a T-rex or Titan in a round?
Last night a Magus I'm running did well over a 147 points of damage in a round. I've seen a barbarian annihilate a titan in combat. A two-weapon figher or archer kills a ton of stuff before it gets a chance to swing. What's the difference?
What about wizards or clerics trivilizing encounters with spells like wall of force or grease? You are going to complain about Crane Wing when all these other classes have amazing powers as well? Kind of strange.
1. A crossbow and a ballista require different proficiencies - the ballista is an exotic weapon and requires Siege Weapons Proficiency while the heavy crossbow is a simple weapon. IE a huge creature can't just pick up a ballista and treat it as a crossbow, they're different weapons. By this logic "essentially" is used to describe how the weapon functions, which is similar - crossbows and ballistae rely on the same concepts, much like a slingshot and a catapult or a handgun and a cannon. The counter argument here is that Huge is capitalized, implying that all ballistae are the same as a Huge Heavy Crossbow. Again, this runs into some trouble since UC lists three different sizes of ballistae (light, heavy, gatebreaker) with three different sets of stats.
Actually, with the rules for huge creatures reloading and aiming siege engines faster, and I believe even in UC they say that a ballista is functionally an oversized crossbow (and the siege proficiencies are just to let smaller creatures use them without harsh penalties), I believe a huge creature CAN just pick up a light ballista and use it as a heavy crossbow, maybe with a small penalty for the modifications from mounting. Also a ballista does the same damage a heavy crossbow would when scaled up to huge, unless I remember wrong.
The exact quote in UC is that "a ballista resembles a massive crossbow", which to me implies that it's actually not a crossbow but it is somewhat similar - much like a glaive resembles a halberd.
The difference between medium and larger creatures when it comes to manning siege weapons is simply that they count as more crew members. One large creature counts as four medium, one huge counts as eight medium etc.
A ballista wouldn't allow you to deal sneak attack damage as they're inherently inaccurate. A heavy crossbow would.
A ballista has fairly stringent limitations on how far you can move it in a round - the crossbow (unsurprisingly) has no such limitations.
Finally, looking at the illustration presented for the ballista on page 162 you can see there are significant design differences, both the reload mechanism and the fact that the ballista includes a stand.
If a huge character looted a ballista I would probably allow him to modify it and turn it into an appropriately sized crossbow (though probably asking for a skill check or two), but I wouldn't allow him to just pick it up and use it with full proficiency unless he's also proficient with siege weapons - there are so many variations in how each weapon is used (in the UC rules set) that I would consider them two different weapons and at the very least give him a -4 nonproficiency penalty.
As the other half of the duo flamethrower49 was talking about, I thought I'd chime in.
Is crane wing good? well, yes it is. It's a nice defensive option, but I wouldn't call it broken. It takes 4 feats to get there, or a 2 level dip into MoMS monk. To use it, you essentially have to be in a position where the enemy can full attack you on its next turn, as you must be fighting defensively. Now sure, you could potentially do the total defense route instead, but then you will likely be ignored. So the answer to Crane Wing is simply; hit the same character more than once per round.
I personally don't see crane wing as broken, you just need to play smart if you fight against someone with such feat. Look for ways to make them flat footed or worse, it sucks if you just a big dumb fighter/ barbarian (but you shouldn't be dumb, big is all you need).
I don't see there are not many ways to stop melee, there are too many ways to do it effectively. It called melee for a reason, go figure. =)
grapple them.
also you have to fight defensively or full defensive to use this ability. So you are taking a -4 to attack in order to block one attack a round. if you are using flurry that is -6 to attack. say you have +4 str mod you have a -2 to hit.
the best option would be to trip the target so he only gets one attack if he stands up or gets -4 to hit and you get +4 to hit prone target.
Already covered. Crane Style drops the penalty to -2, Crane Riposite makes it -1.
Crane style is great, but I think snake style is just as good. You can get sense motive obserdly high with a few simple feats and items.
