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Nothing says you have to leave two stats in the dumpster. A martial might always boost all physical stats while rotating the fourth boost among all mental stats, for instance. And totally predestined advancement (e.g. every stat goes up when any do) is kinda boring.
Lowering the prereq for multiclassing to 14 I might buy, though that's the kind of thing playtesting is for.
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Trade offs are more interesting. Keep the prereq at 16.The tradeoffs are uneven. An alchemist, for example, has to make a minimal investment to become a wizard, whereas a cleric (e.g. a cleric of Nethys) must pony up Intelligence 16.
That seems intended, and mirrors PF1 multiclassing pretty well. An Alchemist wizard in PF1 got more class synergy than a wizard/cleric (until they picked up Mystic Theurge, at least).
Edit: mind, they got less in terms of armor and weapon skills, but an alchemist/wizard probably isn't going to find that aspect of gameplay compelling.
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Trade offs are more interesting. Keep the prereq at 16.The tradeoffs are uneven. An alchemist, for example, has to make a minimal investment to become a wizard, whereas a cleric (e.g. a cleric of Nethys) must pony up Intelligence 16, when a cleric's class features are already split between Wisdom and Charisma.
Yeah? A cleric can go Druid a lot easier than the alchemist. A transformation alchemist going for wild shape has to budget Wis. It’s pretty boring if every class has access to every other with minimal effort. At 16, you can choose to budget abilities for Multiclass or wait until 6th depending on your character priorities. At 14, Multiclass seems like almost an auto pick.
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I want to be able to have low stats at higher levels if I want. One of the most memorable characters in a Pathfinder campaign I've been in was a player's 5 charisma garbage eating possibly-insane cat hoarding swarm monger druid in our Hell's Rebel's game (which featured a bunch of other incredibly high charisma people). If that character was any less off-putting, they would have been less fun.
But I also don't think a 16 modifier is a very big ask. Since your third highest stat is probably a 14, you can grab a 2nd class with retraining at 5th level if you plan ahead even a little. Like 18 Str, 16 Con, 14 Wis, 12 Dex, 10 Int, 8 Cha for a Dwarf Barbarian who has aspirations to being a multiclass Cleric. Some combinations being more natural than others is inevitable, since some classes are literally going to key on the same stats as others.
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Sounds like a good trade off to me.
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With the generous stat bumps and static stat generation, I dont think this is as much a problem as it appears.
It's a big limitation for organic character growth, rather than running a pre-planned build from level 1.
With some obvious exceptions like barbarian fighters and cleric druids, where there effectively isn't any cost at all.
It's also very race dependent. I was toying with the idea of a dwarf fighter rogue (or rogue fighter) and despite being a simple concept, it is very difficult to do until 5th level, unless the fighter dedication feat is grabbable with dex 16 rather than str 16, or you make a 16 dex fighter that isn't very good until rogue abilities (especially dex to damage) come online.
Sounds like a good trade off to me.
How so? The example cleric's abilities are gutted just for the starting point of wand use and cantrips. It will be two more levels before they get a single wizard spell, and all sorts of abilities are wrecked in exchange.
On the other hand, a theoretical druid feat would give a similar set of spells and things (including formerly arcane only spells like fireball), and cost the cleric nothing. They can just build like a normal cleric.
If you can do roughly the same thing at a huge trade off as no trade off, something is clearly wrong.
Though in the playtest it will be more effective to start with druid and compare druid/cleric to druid/wizard. They should get roughly the same power increase, but druid/cleric (of say Erastil or Gozreh) would cost nothing but the feat, whereas the wizard version will have to warp starting stats over backwards.
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With the generous stat bumps and static stat generation, I dont think this is as much a problem as it appears.It's a big limitation for organic character growth, rather than running a pre-planned build from level 1.
With some obvious exceptions like barbarian fighters and cleric druids, where there effectively isn't any cost at all.
It's also very race dependent. I was toying with the idea of a dwarf fighter rogue (or rogue fighter) and despite being a simple concept, it is very difficult to do until 5th level, unless the fighter dedication feat is grabbable with dex 16 rather than str 16, or you make a 16 dex fighter that isn't very good until rogue abilities (especially dex to damage) come online.
What was hard about it? Seems pretty straightforward if you pick either a Str or Dex background.
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I don't think boosting all stats at the same time is a good idea. You might as well not boost stats at all since that removes any character differentiation after first level.
Maybe the prerequisite could be lowered to 14 but I doubt it.
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I dont see a 16 as a limitation in PF2. Either start with a 16 or start with a 14 and multiclass after your ability score boost. I just hope other feats are equally good.Let us have a look at a cleric of Nethys who wants to multiclass into wizard by 2nd level, because a wizard multiclass is a 2nd level class feat.
They can afford Strength 10, Dexterity 12, Constitution 10, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 18, Charisma 12. Their survivability is mediocre given Dexterity 12 and Constitution 10, their daily uses of heal/harm are middling due to Charisma 12, and their Intelligence 16 is not doing much other than qualifying them for the wizard multiclass in the first place.
Pretty much how I feel about the 16 requirement; it's too strong, and it's really only a modifier benefit differential of 1, especially since you can either get 2 sets of 16s, with some 14s, or one 18 and one 16, with maybe one 14 and the rest being 12 or less. Using classes with subpar primary attributes was penalizing enough by having the modifiers determine just how good you were with your features; making it a requirement, especially one as strong as this, really shoehorns character development.
If the complaint is that people will just have all 14s (which I don't think is even possible, by the way,) and dip every class/archetype possible to get every base benefit and be an "ultimate" character, there's still the dedications limit that cuts down on what different options you can stack with by requiring you invest in at least two (or more) feats beyond your dedication feat before selecting another dedication, so the idea that people can just multiclass everything and get everything that way is silly and impossible. (It's also probably inoptimal as hell too.)
The irony here is that, building a Mystic Theurge, would be better done with Wizard as your primary, with Cleric as your Multiclass, with the attribute array of 18 Intelligence and 16 Wisdom with maybe a 14 Charisma (assuming you get Charisma-based benefits with Cleric multiclass), and the rest being 12 or less (bonus points for 8 Strength). Sure, you won't have access to 9th/10th level Divine spells, but you wouldn't have access to 9th/10th level Arcane spells either, making it an uneven trade to begin with (not because Arcane > Divine, but because you're paying effectively more for higher Divine spellcasting than Arcane spellcasting, meaning unless those 9th/10th level spell slots are better, it's not worth the cost).
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If you are going to multiclass as early as 2nd level, that class's key attribute should be your secondary stat, at the very least. It makes sense that you should have to gain some significant experience adventuring before multiclassing based on your tertiary stats.
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As I understand it, the retraining rules will allow you to retrain stats. So you can start with a stat of 14, retrain it to 16, get the multiclass, retrain it back to 14.
This is useful if you pick a background for fluff reasons (and why wouldn't you?) but it doesn't boost the stat you need for multiclassing. I don't think it would work for races ancestries that get a -2 to that stat, they may have to wait until level-up before being able to multiclass, but then there is a reason they are not famous for certain classes.
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If you are going to multiclass as early as 2nd level, that class's key attribute should be your secondary stat, at the very least. It makes sense that you should have to gain some significant experience adventuring before multiclassing based on your tertiary stats.
But that isn't the situation this system gives us. Some race/class/multiclass combination -must- multiclass off tertiary stats, others can just do it with their primary stat, even though they're getting the same thing.
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If you are going to multiclass as early as 2nd level, that class's key attribute should be your secondary stat, at the very least. It makes sense that you should have to gain some significant experience adventuring before multiclassing based on your tertiary stats.But that isn't the situation this system gives us. Some race/class/multiclass combination -must- multiclass off tertiary stats, others can just do it with their primary stat, even though they're getting the same thing.
Having a penalty doesn't make a stat tertiary. It is still a secondary stat if you build it up to a 14. Ancestries with racial penalties can't multiclass as easily into classes that key off their penalized stats. That... makes sense.
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One idea that occurred to me back when SF came out is that it might be better (if more complicated) to spread each packet of ability boosts downward, so that, for instance, instead of getting the first 4 at five, you get one at 2, 3, 4, and 5. There could still be a rule that you couldn't use a boost on the same score twice until you reached level six.
I understand that that's a bit involved, but I wish it were true.
I don't know why Pathfinder 2nd Edition has attribute advancement at levels 5, 10, and 15.
In Pathfinder 1st Edition, I usually used the +1 to an attribute at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th levels to first turn odd attribute values into even attribute values, converting the nonfunctional +0.5 to attribute bonus into a functional +1. The increase felt like a method to give more value to odd stats.
After that, I usually just boosted the character's most valuable attribute.
It was nice gaining an occasional high-level bonus spell or another +1 to AC or to damage. But it wasn't important. Qualifying for a feat because my character reached a belated 13 or 15 or 17 was important. But it was rare.
The remaining benefit was that my attack bonus or an entire group of skill bonuses went up. +1 to Dexterity was faster than +1 to Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. But in Pathfinder 2nd Edition, everyone gains level to attack bonus and skills. Going up by +2 instead of +1 lacks the thrill of an increase where the value would have stayed flat otherwise.
Either the attribute increase or the level to skills and attack bonus is redundant. The level increase would be harder to minmax, so it is the more stable of the two. Its main weakness is that it does not satisfy prerequisites.
It also feels like sabotaging the game to create an Attribute 16 prerequisite when the attributes increase so much. Was the prerequisite an unnecessary obstacle? Or is the high attribute requirement a test to prove commitment and high-level characters don't need commitment?
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16 is the new 12.
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It also feels like sabotaging the game to create an Attribute 16 prerequisite when the attributes increase so much. Was the prerequisite an unnecessary obstacle? Or is the high attribute requirement a test to prove commitment and high-level characters don't need commitment?
Choosing to increase the necessary scores does show some commitment from high-level characters. I don't find it sabotaging to say that everyone can multiclass to anything eventually, but only the very dedicated can do so early in their careers.
I feel it is a rock paper scissors situation and until I get to test it out I am reserving my opinion.
On the surface though I get it. I would love to have a martial multi with a wizard and be on par with an Alch/Wizard
But a Fighter with a Rogue or another class has more benefits than an Alchemist and a Fighter for example.
Some classes will pair better, and others will have to make sacrifices. I think this will shine more in the Archetypes when we get our eyes on those.
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I don’t see a problem, myself; you can pretty easily get that required 16 within the first five levels, and take all the multiclassing you want to finish out the dedication long before you reach level 20.
Let’s be honest, though: EVERY edition change features some character builds that become non viable, it’s inevitable. After 2nd Edition AD&D, 1st Edition bards with 7 fighter levels, 9 rogue levels, and 20 bard levels were no longer possible; after 3rd Edition, 2nd Edition half-elven 12th level fighter/14th level magic-user/13th level clerics were no longer possible. We’re going to lose some things, some of which we’ll get back via expansion books... and some others which in hindsight will have been worth losing for the sake of a sound game system. I’m of the mindset, “Instead of building what we’ve built before, why not experiment with something new?”
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I don't have a problem with the 16 requirement because it is easy to have a 16 your secondary and for most races you can start with 16 in 3 stats. So instead of starting 18 16 14, you can start at 16, 16, 16. Now I can have high Str Dex and Int and still be a fighter.
If memory serves stat generation is:
+2 +2 +2 -2 Race (or human +2 +2)
+2 +2 background
+2 class
+2 +2 +2 +2 level 1
That works out to 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. But you could just as easily have 16, 16, 16, 12, 10, 8. So the Cleric of Nethys has a 16 wis, 16 int, 16 cha, 8 dex, 10 con, 12 str. You could even go with a 16, 16, 14, 14, 10, 8. 16s in Wis and Int, then 14 in cha & str. Who says I HAVE to start with 18 in my main stat?
OR!!! If you really want to go crazy.... put a 14 in your main stat!
Str 12 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 14. This is a very well rounded character. Maybe drop Dex or Con and start with a 14 in Str. that's a starting lineup of 16 14 14 14 12 8 (human ending 10 10). Starting low is not that bad since once your stat hits 18 it only goes up by 1 ever 5 levels instead of 2.
So at level 5, if I start at 18, I will have : 19 18 16 12 10 8.
But with the starting 16s, I'm at : 18 18 18 14 10 8, now you're arguably better off.
At 10 it's 20 19 18 14 10 8 vs 19 19 19 16 10 8.
The 16 triple 14 is at 18 16 16 16 10 8 and 19 18 18 18 10 8 at 5 and 10 respectively.
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I feel like one thing that merits mentioning is that retraining rules in PF2 are extremely generous, so if you start with a 14 in something you can make it 16 at level 5 then retrain your 2nd level class feat to be the appropriate dedication.
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Having a penalty doesn't make a stat tertiary. It is still a secondary stat if you build it up to a 14. Ancestries with racial penalties can't multiclass as easily into classes that key off their penalized stats. That... makes sense.If you are going to multiclass as early as 2nd level, that class's key attribute should be your secondary stat, at the very least. It makes sense that you should have to gain some significant experience adventuring before multiclassing based on your tertiary stats.But that isn't the situation this system gives us. Some race/class/multiclass combination -must- multiclass off tertiary stats, others can just do it with their primary stat, even though they're getting the same thing.
The typical attribute array for PF2 is 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, assuming proper ABC selections, under the guise that you would do nothing to shore up that penalty. We're otherwise left with 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, which means you're only skating by for 2 classes, and fumbling around for the others until at least 5th level, for one more class at best.
By outright definition being the third highest or most important attribute, would result in a 14 based on the above usual array of attributes. Not only is it empirically correct to call it "tertiary", as there are two other attributes which took precedent, it's also technically correct based on real world definitions of "tertiary."
Ancestral penalties just mean you don't want to use that race for that particular class as its primary attribute. As one example, Dwarves are crappy sorcerers, but ironically are decent Wizards, Clerics, Fighters/Barbarians, and great Druids. (They're actually best as Druids, simply due to the lack of Charisma dependency.) Whether that means you shouldn't multiclass based on the above array is a whole different ballgame altogether.
Having a penalty doesn't make a stat tertiary. It is still a secondary stat if you build it up to a 14. Ancestries with racial penalties can't multiclass as easily into classes that key off their penalized stats. That... makes sense.If you are going to multiclass as early as 2nd level, that class's key attribute should be your secondary stat, at the very least. It makes sense that you should have to gain some significant experience adventuring before multiclassing based on your tertiary stats.But that isn't the situation this system gives us. Some race/class/multiclass combination -must- multiclass off tertiary stats, others can just do it with their primary stat, even though they're getting the same thing.
Didn't say it did. Didn't even mention penalties in fact. Not sure of the relevance, really.
Nope. Its a secondary stat if it benefits the class/build to have it. Dex is still a secondary stat for a wizard regardless of if it is 14 or not. If they're a specifically a ray/touch wizard, Dex is best considered a primary stat, but they can't max it out.
...great? At no point was a I suggesting small race fighters/barbs or dwarf sorcerer/bard. Nothing else has to care, except sorta dwarf clerics, who are arbitrarily worse healers.
It's really simple. Some race/classes have easy multiclass choices and hard multiclass choices. Elves tagging into rogue is easy, regardless of what their real class is, because anyone can be made to value Dex Wizard isn't that hard either, because they're using a fixed bonus, not a free one. Elves adopting cleric or fighter is difficult, especially if they're starting in a class that doesn't value strength or wisdom, which is a lot of them.
Dwarves are the same for anything that isn't cleric (or probably druid). A dwarf rogue looking to multiclass into fighter has a very bizarre and not very useful build ahead of them. Not because they have a penalty, but because strength doesn't mean squat for PF2 rogue, and dwarves either have to go all in on strength or wait 4 or 9 levels. Same is true the other way around. And for wizard, since nothing but alchemist really cares if your Int is 16 (or even 14) or not.
Even humans and their spawn have a hard time if you want to use a tertiary stat. It's just more effective to use a stat you already value to cash in on the greater inherent worth of the dedication feat, regardless if the feat fits or makes sense for the character.
So since the best part of the wizard dedication comes in the 8th level feat, I wonder how feasible it would be to start with a 12 Int (easily doable) then once you hit 10th level retrain 3 feats to get like 6th level casting.
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I tend to compare the PF2 rules to the adventure paths I've run. I wonder about the Scrapwall Fanatics, a CR 1 foe from the Iron Gods adventure path, Half-orc fighter 1/rogue 1, with Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. I suspect the fanatics are mixed class to give the impression that they are untrained thugs who gained their skills through bitter experience. Could such an NPC exist in PF2? We would have to even out the attributes, maybe STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8. They don't qualify for Rogue Dedication, so I ought to set Rogue to the starting class and add Fighter Dedication.
I am bothered by the weirdness that since their attributes are more aligned with Fighter class than Rogue class, the way to build them with a dedication is to start with the less suitable class to ensure that they qualify for a dedication?
Or they could start as Fighter with a rogue-like Background, and gain some iconic rogue ability via a feat. Except that if a feat gives an iconic rogue-like ability, then it probably won't be a Fighter class feat.
Do I settle on a Fighter wth a rogue-like Background? The list of backgrounds that I have seen is: Acolyte, Acrobat, Animal Whisperer, Barkeep, Blacksmith, Criminal, Entertainer, Farmhand, Gladiator, Hunter, Laborer, Merchant, Noble, Nomad, Sailor, Scholar, Scout, Street Urchin, and Warrior. The ones that would give a roguish feel related to Scrapwall are Criminal, Nomad, Scout, and Street Urchin. Street Urchin was previewed in the Paizo Blog, and it gives two ability boosts, one of them restricted to Dex or Int, Pickpocket skill feat, and training in the Underworld Lore. Pickpocket and Underworld don't fit Scrapwall. Criminal is the Background of the pregenerated Merisiel previewed at ENWorld. It appears to give Experienced Smuggler feat and training in Stealth, and its restricted attribute boost is not in Strength. With that build, the roguish nature of the Scrapwall Fanatics will be that they are stealthy and good at hiding items. Okay, that one fits Scrapwall. Unfortunately, they are not hiding anything when the party encounters them, so no-one will notice their Background.
I tend to compare the PF2 rules to the adventure paths I've run. I wonder about the Scrapwall Fanatics, a CR 1 foe from the Iron Gods adventure path, Half-orc fighter 1/rogue 1
I would argue that you would probably just go straight Rogue in P2 and grab some combat abilities. From your description, sounds like Rogues with better combat abilities as opposed to sneaky roguish fighters. If you want, you could still do Fighter Dedication with the above stats, which would give the same feel since in P1 the fighter level really just gives +1 BAB and a bonus feat.
I tend to compare the PF2 rules to the adventure paths I've run. I wonder about the Scrapwall Fanatics, a CR 1 foe from the Iron Gods adventure path, Half-orc fighter 1/rogue 1, with Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. I suspect the fanatics are mixed class to give the impression that they are untrained thugs who gained their skills through bitter experience. Could such an NPC exist in PF2? We would have to even out the attributes, maybe STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8. They don't qualify for Rogue Dedication, so I ought to set Rogue to the starting class and add Fighter Dedication.
I am bothered by the weirdness that since their attributes are more aligned with Fighter class than Rogue class, the way to build them with a dedication is to start with the less suitable class to ensure that they qualify for a dedication?
Or they could start as Fighter with a rogue-like Background, and gain some iconic rogue ability via a feat. Except that if a feat gives an iconic rogue-like ability, then it probably won't be a Fighter class feat.
Do I settle on a Fighter wth a rogue-like Background? The list of backgrounds that I have seen is: Acolyte, Acrobat, Animal Whisperer, Barkeep, Blacksmith, Criminal, Entertainer, Farmhand, Gladiator, Hunter, Laborer, Merchant, Noble, Nomad, Sailor, Scholar, Scout, Street Urchin, and Warrior. The ones that would give a roguish feel related to Scrapwall are Criminal, Nomad, Scout, and Street Urchin. Street Urchin was previewed in the Paizo Blog, and it gives two ability boosts, one of them restricted to Dex or Int, Pickpocket skill feat, and training in the Underworld Lore. Pickpocket and Underworld don't fit Scrapwall. Criminal is the Background of the pregenerated Merisiel previewed at ENWorld. It appears to give Experienced Smuggler feat and training in Stealth, and...
I do not think monsters are created like PC's anymore. These guys would be made up stats that are appropriate to the encounter level. Like 4th or 5th edition D&D.
You could make them up like PC's if you wish to, but that is a lot of work if this is just some encounter (I am not familiar with the adventure path so I do not know their importance).
My impression is monsters will be rarely made like PCs. We shall see in a few days.
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It is a bit strange you can start play as a Wizard with 8 Intelligence but have to have a 16 if you start as something other than a Wizard....
Gotta stop the dip!
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It is a bit strange you can start play as a Wizard with 8 Intelligence but have to have a 16 if you start as something other than a Wizard....
I mean, not to be pedantic but as of current it's impossible to play a wizard with less than 10 int as far as we can tell.
As I understand it, the retraining rules will allow you to retrain stats. So you can start with a stat of 14, retrain it to 16, get the multiclass, retrain it back to 14.
This is useful if you pick a background for fluff reasons (and why wouldn't you?) but it doesn't boost the stat you need for multiclassing. I don't think it would work for
racesancestries that get a -2 to that stat, they may have to wait until level-up before being able to multiclass, but then there is a reason they are not famous for certain classes.
You can retrain stats? I thought retraining was for feats and skills only.
How does that work, pumping iron to boost STR and reduce INT?