Goblins and halflings


Prerelease Discussion


http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkog?Goblins
http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkpm?Fuzzy-Feet-and-Voles-to-Meet

Perhaps it is just me, but 2e goblins do not seem that synergistic with alchemists. Goblins are a Dexterity/Charisma race, and alchemists can, at some point, use Intelligence in place of Charisma for Resonance Points, so what is the impetus to be a goblin alchemist? Why is the iconic alchemist a goblin?

For that matter, halflings seem to be lacking compared to goblins. Halflings have the same Dexterity/Charisma boosts, but only speed 20 (not the standard 25) and no darkvision. What can halflings possibly offer over goblins?

Is the one upside of halflings over goblins that they dump Strength instead of Wisdom?


Colette Brunel wrote:

http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkog?Goblins

http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkpm?Fuzzy-Feet-and-Voles-to-Meet

Perhaps it is just me, but 2e goblins do not seem that synergistic with alchemists. Goblins are a Dexterity/Charisma race, and alchemists can, at some point, use Intelligence in place of Charisma for Resonance Points, so what is the impetus to be a goblin alchemist? Why is the iconic alchemist a goblin?

For that matter, halflings seem to be lacking compared to goblins. Halflings have the same Dexterity/Charisma boosts, but only speed 20 (not the standard 25) and no darkvision. What can halflings possibly offer over goblins?

Is the one upside of halflings over goblins that they dump Strength instead of Wisdom?

Goblins also get a floating +2, hence making them decent alchemists. As long as thier stat penalty isn't in a classes primary stat, they would be good. Funny enough, they make great Paladins.....

As for the Halfling vs. Goblin comparison, i cannot comment as I am not sure what each race gets.


Linkified:
Goblin blog
Halfling/Gnome blog


Kerobelis wrote:


Goblins also get a floating +2, hence making them decent alchemists. As long as thier stat penalty isn't in a classes primary stat, they would be good. Funny enough, they make great Paladins.....

Everyone receives a floating +2.

My point is that the goblin +2 Charisma seems wasted on an alchemist.


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I think it might be a flavor thing -- goblins love fire, so they would naturally take to tossing bombs.


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Halflings got updated to be Wisdom not Charisma, or at least they have been implied to have been updated such.


I don't think they pick the race of their iconic character after which stats fit and goblins make somewhat decent alchemists considering their background (even though I think giving them a + Charisma is somewhat weird)


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Kerobelis wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:

http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkog?Goblins

http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkpm?Fuzzy-Feet-and-Voles-to-Meet

Perhaps it is just me, but 2e goblins do not seem that synergistic with alchemists. Goblins are a Dexterity/Charisma race, and alchemists can, at some point, use Intelligence in place of Charisma for Resonance Points, so what is the impetus to be a goblin alchemist? Why is the iconic alchemist a goblin?

For that matter, halflings seem to be lacking compared to goblins. Halflings have the same Dexterity/Charisma boosts, but only speed 20 (not the standard 25) and no darkvision. What can halflings possibly offer over goblins?

Is the one upside of halflings over goblins that they dump Strength instead of Wisdom?

Goblins also get a floating +2, hence making them decent alchemists. As long as thier stat penalty isn't in a classes primary stat, they would be good. Funny enough, they make great Paladins.....

As for the Halfling vs. Goblin comparison, i cannot comment as I am not sure what each race gets.

One of the reasons I wanna play a gobbo pally is because of an off line in the goblin blog.

Blog wrote wrote:
Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes.

To me at least that makes it sound like much how humans seem to have certain social instincts, goblins have a subtle bias towards protective loyalty and deference (I know this might not fit the default lore but still) towards Important Individuals.

So I kinda want to play a ragtag little knight dead set on being the bodyguard of other party members.


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Colette Brunel wrote:
Kerobelis wrote:


Goblins also get a floating +2, hence making them decent alchemists. As long as thier stat penalty isn't in a classes primary stat, they would be good. Funny enough, they make great Paladins.....

Everyone receives a floating +2.

My point is that the goblin +2 Charisma seems wasted on an alchemist.

And this makes every race useful, so you do not need to worry too much about an optimal race for a particular class. The only worry is if your -2 stat doesn't match up.

I am sure the darkvision, and speed help make a good alchemist. I think they also get some sort of racial bonus to fire damage so that would help as well.

As for the Charisma, well don't boost it any more or take a skill or two. I think A +2DX and +2 IN are great for the alchemist so goblins are a fine choice.


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The sometimes-upside for halflings over goblins is that they get the halfling ancestry feats instead of the goblin ancestry feats. If those fit your planned character better, or you just like the flavor better, then play a halfling.


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Kerobelis wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
Kerobelis wrote:


Goblins also get a floating +2, hence making them decent alchemists. As long as thier stat penalty isn't in a classes primary stat, they would be good. Funny enough, they make great Paladins.....

Everyone receives a floating +2.

My point is that the goblin +2 Charisma seems wasted on an alchemist.

And this makes every race useful, so you do not need to worry too much about an optimal race for a particular class. The only worry is if your -2 stat doesn't match up.

I am sure the darkvision, and speed help make a good alchemist. I think they also get some sort of racial bonus to fire damage so that would help as well.

As for the Charisma, well don't boost it any more or take a skill or two. I think A +2DX and +2 IN are great for the alchemist so goblins are a fine choice.

even with the -2 one could reach 16 in a main score, which could be enough for many characters


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I feel like comparing base ancestral packages without seeing their respective feats will be tricky to make conclusions on. Dwarves are looking really good right now from the incomplete information we have, and halflings are looking a little weak.

However, if the quality of the ancestry feats is meant to be a balance factor, then half elves and half orcs seem funky getting 3 sets of them.

As for charisma on Fumbus, it may not be optimal but a class with lots of skills may enjoy being able to invest them in face stuff and get some returns. Especially if they are a goblin that people will distrust at first glance. Winning hearts and minds is important.


I wouldn't be surprised if halflings got some kind of luck mechanic, which is usually pretty good.


Hmm, Halflings to look a little bereft of features, like Humans. So I'd imagine that like Humans, Halflings will be defined by the quality of their Ancestry feats. But unlike Humans, Halfling feats won't have to be reined in by being shared with the Half-Its. So they'll be very flavorful, as well as being fairly powerful (I expect).

I wonder about Size though. The blog mentioned that damage was the same by size, but what about other statistics? Are Small creatures still getting +1 to Attack Rolls, and +1 to AC (& TAC)? Because that is a more significant bonus now than in 1st edition. Regardless that won't change the relative comparisons amongst the Small-folk.


I would guess no atk or ac bonus - but I could imagine some bonus for stealth and malus for intimidate, on the other hand that wasnt the case in starfinder either IIRC, so size could be (if it stays with normal and small) a thing mainly for flavor, secondary to see how soon someone can put you into a bag of holding and how long you can stay there without suffocating :P


Where is it stated that halflings are now a Dexterity/Wisdom race?


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Colette Brunel wrote:
Where is it stated that halflings are now a Dexterity/Wisdom race?

Implied but not stated Here


Colette Brunel wrote:
Where is it stated that halflings are now a Dexterity/Wisdom race?

I don't think there's official confirmation (we'll find out in like a week anyway) but when all the previews came out a lot of people observed that it's a bit odd for every single one of the small ancestries getting a cha boost. Considering PF1 had an overabundance of Dex/Cha options in PF1, do we need to do 2 of the min the CRB right off the bat? Aren't Halflings generally prudent, sensible, and practical anyway?

Mr. Seifter made some offhand comment about how "Wise Halfling fans would be advised to keep an eye out for the playtest" which sort of implies they made them Dex/Wis, which I must say does fit better.

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Bardarok wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
Where is it stated that halflings are now a Dexterity/Wisdom race?
Implied but not stated Here

The probability that halflings remain a Charisma ancestry and Mark makes that specific comment is ridiculously small.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
Where is it stated that halflings are now a Dexterity/Wisdom race?
Implied but not stated Here
The probability that halflings remain a Charisma ancestry and Mark makes that specific comment is ridiculously small.

Oh I agree. I was just trying to be precise.


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CHA Halflings were just a leftover from 3E. The much more grim Halflings of Golarion have developed their survival instincts a lot and became more socially reclusive. They are still commonly liars, but WIS is for sure their main thing seeing how much the Halfling lore talks about their perception.


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Bardarok wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
Where is it stated that halflings are now a Dexterity/Wisdom race?
Implied but not stated Here
The probability that halflings remain a Charisma ancestry and Mark makes that specific comment is ridiculously small.
Oh I agree. I was just trying to be precise.

It appears pretty definite that halflings will be -Str, +Dex, +Wis in the playtest. It may ultimately be up to us whether they are also that way in the official PF2 rules a year from now.


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The iconic alchemist is a goblin because A) they're the two "new" things in 2e core and B) to eat up that delicious Warcraft nostalgia.


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But everyone is okay with the Gnome Druid? What mechanical synergy does she have that a goblin Alchemist lacks?

Paizo Employee

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Mbertorch wrote:
But everyone is okay with the Gnome Druid? What mechanical synergy does she have that a goblin Alchemist lacks?

Well, in the current edition she would actually be able to Handle Animal effectively. I've run quite a few games where characters dumped CHA on their druids only to discover that for the first three or four levels of their build they had a 10-20% failure chance each round of telling their animal companion to do anything. Hard to say what it might mean in the new system until everything is rolled out.


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I like that the iconics aren't always natural race/class combos. Having the iconic ranger be a dwarf who used crossbows, for example was great (unfortunately using crossbows wasn't really a viable path something I'm hoping PF2 fixes). Having something a bit more unusual as an iconic for a given class helps break stereotypes and shows that you can do things in different ways. Not just big beefy half-orc men as barbarians, hippie elf women as druids and such.


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ChibiNyan wrote:
CHA Halflings were just a leftover from 3E. The much more grim Halflings of Golarion have developed their survival instincts a lot and became more socially reclusive. They are still commonly liars, but WIS is for sure their main thing seeing how much the Halfling lore talks about their perception.

Wait, what? No. Halflings used to be -Str +Dex. We didn't have these fancy schmancy "second ability boost" back in our days. If you were playing a Half-Orc, you even got a second -2. Those were the days.

All of that was in jest, but Halflings didn't get a boost to Charisma in 3rd edition. That's a Pathfinder thing.

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Arachnofiend wrote:
The iconic alchemist is a goblin because A) they're the two "new" things in 2e core and B) to eat up that delicious Warcraft nostalgia.

Soooooo Rougarou when?


NimbleW wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
CHA Halflings were just a leftover from 3E. The much more grim Halflings of Golarion have developed their survival instincts a lot and became more socially reclusive. They are still commonly liars, but WIS is for sure their main thing seeing how much the Halfling lore talks about their perception.

Wait, what? No. Halflings used to be -Str +Dex. We didn't have these fancy schmancy "second ability boost" back in our days. If you were playing a Half-Orc, you even got a second -2. Those were the days.

All of that was in jest, but Halflings didn't get a boost to Charisma in 3rd edition. That's a Pathfinder thing.

Then someone dropped the ball or they hadn't fully fleshed out the race. The Racial Features it gets also seem pretty out of place.

Silver Crusade

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ChibiNyan wrote:
NimbleW wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
CHA Halflings were just a leftover from 3E. The much more grim Halflings of Golarion have developed their survival instincts a lot and became more socially reclusive. They are still commonly liars, but WIS is for sure their main thing seeing how much the Halfling lore talks about their perception.

Wait, what? No. Halflings used to be -Str +Dex. We didn't have these fancy schmancy "second ability boost" back in our days. If you were playing a Half-Orc, you even got a second -2. Those were the days.

All of that was in jest, but Halflings didn't get a boost to Charisma in 3rd edition. That's a Pathfinder thing.

Then someone dropped the ball or they hadn't fully fleshed out the race. The Racial Features it gets also seem pretty out of place.

Starting out Pathfinder was Setting neutral, so Halflings were based on all the previous depictions of Halflings, rather than specifically Golarion's take.

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, based on anecdotes from the time, in the first Pathfinder playtest they floated Halflings with a Wisdom boost but found that people preferred Charisma.

And so they went with what people wanted.


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<^ we should be charisma!


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Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
<^ we should be charisma!

Why not go for all the stats? Kobolds got hosed in PF1, get compensation for that, with interest.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
<^ we should be charisma!
Why not go for all the stats? Kobolds got hosed in PF1, get compensation for that, with interest.

^^^ This person IS wise and all knowing. we should all do as he says!


I for one welcome our new super-powered, +4 in every stat, kobold overlords. I'm sure my time toiling away in their slave pits will be pleasant and look good on a resume.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
I for one welcome our new super-powered, +4 in every stat, kobold overlords. I'm sure my time toiling away in their slave pits will be pleasant and look good on a resume.

You shall be fed! (to what we don't know yet.)

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