Hawkmoon269 |
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Currently, seasons 1 and 3 each have what I would refer to as a "capstone" scenario. These scenarios are great. They act as a sort of "adventure 7" and often have some extreme challenge at great reward. I hope we continue to see them in the future, including for season 4. Plus, so far at least, they have been free.
However, the requirement to be eligible to play in them is pretty strict.
To play this scenario, characters must have gained the reward from the Season of Plundered Tombs Adventure Path.
And the season 1 scenario says something similar. The requirement is that you have essentially won every scenario in the adventure path. The same requirement for receiving the adventure path reward.
The strict nature of this requirement means there are a few "types" of situations where a character would not be eligible.
(1) A character dies and the player starts a new character. This can happen at any point. There are ways to build a high tier character. But once you decide to do this, you are rendering yourself no longer eligible for the capstone.
(2) A player joins late. This is happening in a group I'm running the box for in pbp. One of the players joined in 3-2A. The other 3 had completed all fo 3-1. The new player created a new tier 1 character to join them.
(3) A player misses a session or two. Similar to #2, but this player starts at the beginning but life gets in the way once or twice and they miss a few scenario.
The issue I have here is that in all these cases the ineligible player will have been there for most (or even all in #1) the scenarios, but if the rest want to run the capstone, they'll just have to sit back in watch. That is what makes this different from missing out on the adventure path reward. If another player has a card you don't... well big deal. That happens all the time anyway. Sure that reward card is neat and cool, but not having it doesn't separate you from your fellow players. But eligibility for the capstone does separate you. They will have to ask you not to play if they want to play.
So, I'd suggest a change in the eligibility requirements. I've discussed this with some others and here are some suggestions we came up with. Keep in mind, these requirements are printed on the scenario itself, not in the guide, so changing them isn't a change to the way OP works:
1. Earn the adventure 6 reward and win X number of scenarios in the adventure path. (We say X because the number might change. In a 30 scenario path, maybe it is 15.)
2. Earn the adventure rewards for the last 2 adventures of the adventure path.
3. Tier up following X times in this adventure path. (This lets people use the catch up of tiering up early and still get to tier 6 to be play. It would need to be low enough to cover the character death situation.)
I wouldn't mind hearing other suggestions too. But in general, I'd like something that still means you spent a lot of time in the adventure path, but not penalize those situations I mentioned. At the same time, I wouldn't want it to be easy to abuse the requirement so that one character could play multiple capstones.* For that reason, maybe requiring the adventure 6 reward would be a good requirement.
*This is partly protected by the fact that your character can only earn a single adventure 6 reward, since the guide says that once you win your 4th scenario at tier 6, you can only continue playing in one adventure 6 that you have already started.
redeux |
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I agree that there is room for improvement here. I think the exclusivity of these capstone scenarios goes against the PFSACG guide when it says
Be courteous and encourage a mutual interest in playing
[...]
Community Standards Policy
The Pathfinder Society (PFS) is an inclusive social organization open to everyone. It is our intention that everyone can enjoy gaming in a safe and fun environment.
Meaning we're supposed to promote being inclusive and gaming for all, but yet here due to the nature of capstone scenarios that's not currently possible.
I think what I'd like to see at least is to broaden the availability of the capstone scenarios even if the rewards are kept exclusive. Meaning I would at least like to give the players from Andrew's examples the opportunity to play the scenario, even if they can't earn the reward. If we can find an agreement where they too earn the reward, that would be great, but I understand if capstone rewards are kept exclusive.
Overall I think we just need to make sure that the design of the game supports our goals.
Parody |
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I think they're fine as they are. The rewards they give are a bonus for your group getting through the entire Adventure Path together under the Guild play rules. If that single reward is important to your group, then you should go back and catch people up; that's what our Plundered Tombs group has done for folks who missed nights. Also save your die bumps to raise the dead.
Remember, there's nothing stopping a mixed group from playing a capstone together; you only need to follow the restriction if you want to report it for the Guild reward.
Hawkmoon269 |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think they're fine as they are. The rewards they give are a bonus for your group getting through the entire Adventure Path together under the Guild play rules. If that single reward is important to your group, then you should go back and catch people up; that's what our Plundered Tombs group has done for folks who missed nights. Also save your die bumps to raise the dead.
Remember, there's nothing stopping a mixed group from playing a capstone together; you only need to follow the restriction if you want to report it for the Guild reward.
My time is one of my most valuable commodities. I only get to play face to face PACG every other month at most right now (assuming there are no conflicts and we don't cancel as a group). We get through about an adventure every other month when we meet on a Saturday for a long session. That means it takes me about 1 year to complete an adventure path. While the other members of my group may play outside of that time, they reserve those characters for us to play together. I'd really hate to ask the whole group to add another 2 months to our completion time if I missed a month and couldn't replay. Fortunately, I can play on my own outside of the group to catch up if I miss. But not everyone can.
And I think one thing OP needs to be a bit better at is accommodating new players joining the group. The best way to do that (in my opinion) is to create an environment that rewards the group for being welcoming to new players. That means not asking the rest of the group to sacrifice their own time to allow the new player to join.
I agree there should be some reward for completing everything. That is why I wouldn't advocate changing the adventure path reward. I'd also be open to the idea that, while the requirement to play the capstone be softened, the reward for the capstone be only for those that completed the whole path or reward those that had slightly more than those that hadn't. I just don't want to see a group of people have to choose between excluding some players or earning the reward.
redeux |
I want to share a personal experience but i want to make it clear that I am not arguing this for my own benefit. I have long given up hope for the reward in this case.
I don't think the "make-up" option really works for new players. I joined my local group when I moved into the area and they were on 3-3D/E. They were super welcoming and have been awesome. I had been playing PACG for quite some time prior to that but this was my first experience with Organized Play. Also for some background, i play a TON of solo games (PACG or otherwise). The thing is, with a pre-gen and the current structure of capstone scenarios, I would never be able to play it. When I joined the group we would've needed to do one of two things:
1. Me solo the first 3 AD's, which I'm not opposed to but that's a HUGE ask for someone who is just starting out, who may not own the game box, and who may not be familiar enough with the rules to do that in a short time-span. I could've, but I didn't. It didn't even occur to me that I should/could do this.
2. Alternatively, the group would've needed to make new characters and catch me up. This is also a HUGE ask considering it took them 4-6 months to do those first 3 AD's if I were to guess based on our progression for other tiers. I think that is too much to ask 1-5 other people when they don't know whether or not the new player will fickle out and stop showing up.
So what do you get? You get someone like me who played a pre-gen from tiers 3-6 and doesn't even get the chance to play the capstone scenario. That doesn't feel inclusive to me when we just spent 6+ months playing together. Sure, I've missed quite a few sessions since I joined the local group, but it goes against the whole inclusion policy of Organized Play to exclude me. I also think it is unfair for me to expect or ask the other players to play the capstone without a chance to get the reward for themselves. For me personally, sure, I don't mind sitting out of the capstone. If I really wanted that reward I would just go and solo it. My concern is with other players, and even potential new players. What happens when a group is playing the capstone in a public setting and someone asks to join in. What do you say? Do you tell them they can't join you? Or do you end up playing a different scenario and hope they don't have a good time so next time you meet up you can do the capstone course?
Don't get me wrong, I understand there are ways to navigate these situations, but I guess my message is we shouldn't HAVE to navigate these situations. The scenarios should be designed in a way that supports the Organized Play inclusion policy. I'm not advocating for pre-gens to qualify for the capstone rewards, I'm advocating to allow more players the opportunity to PLAY the scenarios even if they don't qualify for the rewards. If we want to do tiered rewards based on the number of scenarios/AD's completed, then that'd be a great step. I also understand that some groups may not want a tier 5 pre-gen joining them on a capstone scenario. That's a legit concern a group might have, but in that case I think they could defer to their own judgement on how they want to include the new player in their group. The current capstone scenario rules are inflexible and don't allow that kind of discretion.
I am interested in the discussion about giving capstone rewards to those who didn't complete the whole adventure path. I'm not sure I'm 100% sold on that idea, but I think if there was a way to devise tiered rewards for partial-completion then that would be most interesting. Alternatively I think if we just kept the rewards as-is and softened the eligibility requirements for the rewards I would like to see verbiage added that a character can only earn 1 capstone reward to minimizing any "gaming" of the system.
Parody |
My time is valuable as well. We play about the same amount as you: one scenario every other week. It similarly takes us a year or more to get through an AP.
To me the group is more important than finishing the AP as quickly as possible. We recently spent a month and a half (between the missed sessions and catching folks up) without any progression because we want to stick together as a group. We also had to split a scenario (3-6A) over two sessions, further slowing things down. (It took us 7 hours to play with 4 players, including the time to get the game put back together!)
The last time our game night had new players, one of the organizers started a new campaign with them while the rest of us continued with our higher Tier characters. (If there'd been 6 instead of 7, I think we would have played Goblins or something while they caught up.)
While I am commenting on it, in the end it's not that big a deal to me because playing with friends is more important than reporting or earning official rewards. I'm not surprised, though, that two Venture-Officers would think that those things are important and would want to do things they think encourage them. :)
Looking ahead to the new box, I would suggest that they keep the single scenario story capstones tied to their APs and create an Adventure 7 equivalent of Eyes of the Ten: a disconnected short story told in a few scenarios that any Tier 7 character can play. While they'd want to include a quick guide to adapting rewards, I could see it being a fun thing to play at a convention with all of the sets available and characters from multiple APs.
Parody |
One other thing, since we were writing at the same time:
What happens when a group is playing the capstone in a public setting and someone asks to join in. What do you say? Do you tell them they can't join you? Or do you end up playing a different scenario and hope they don't have a good time so next time you meet up you can do the capstone course?
The capstone scenarios aren't appropriate for a new player; I would hope that your group would recognize that and choose to play something more suitable! My suggestion would be to start the next planned AP or play a demo scenario and schedule a time away from the regular game day specifically for playing the capstone, but it's something you will need to work out with the group.
Note that there are times that the local PFS RPG nights could end up turning away interested onlookers when they aren't full up: sometimes they schedule modules that take multiple nights to complete and don't allow for drop ins.
cartmanbeck RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 |
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I agree that slightly relaxing the requirements would overall be an improvement. I don't think it would hurt anything to have one of Hawkmoon's suggested changes apply. I personally like suggestion #2, where you just need to have completed the last 2 adventures of the adventure path with that character to be able to do the capstone.
Yewstance |
cartmanbeck RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 |
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
cartmanbeck RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 |
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
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I am open to other ideas here. I don't want to penalize people for being unable to compete a storyline despite their best efforts... but I do want to actually encourage best efforts and discourage shortcuts. What if it were completing adventure 6 plus at least half of the scenarios in each of the first 5 adventures? (I guess that's really just a more specific version of his suggestion #1.)
cartmanbeck RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 |
I think that would be reasonable, though it would still restrict our mythic goblins from doing the capstone for Wrath of the Righteous (they played through Season of the Goblins adventures 1 and 2, then switched to Season of the Righteous). That is specific to our group, though, and shouldn't sway the general rules.
skizzerz |
Could we tie it to the player in addition to the character?
Something like:
- As a player, win at least 20 distinct scenarios in the adventure path (could be split across any number of characters, but each scenario only counts once even if multiple characters played and won it; this also excludes the demo scenarios since they aren't part of the AP)
- As a character, earn the adventure 6 reward
This neatly covers all 3 of the scenarios Hawkmoon mentioned (character died, joined late, life got in the way and couldn't complete a scenario here or there). 20 scenarios covers around 4 adventures' worth of scenarios, depending on the season.
You as a player still need to put in the effort to experience the entire AP (or as much of it as possible) before doing the capstone, which may or may not address Vic's concern. With capstone reward that apply to all characters (like the Plundered Tombs capstone), this may be sufficient.