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I believe the game has a technical definition of 'worship' that requires your alignment to be within one step of your god. In order to get mechanical benefits of worshipping Sarenrae(such as feat prerequisites) you should not be evil.
But you can 'revere' any god(s) you like.
I believe the game has a technical definition of 'worship' that requires your alignment to be within one step of your god. In order to get mechanical benefits of worshipping Sarenrae(such as feat prerequisites) you should not be evil.
But you can 'revere' any god(s) you like.
That's PFS. Pathfinder itself has no such restrictions except on clerics.
It all sounds like a fine idea to me. Angst galore!
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One thing to consider is the difference between a Monotheistic and a Pantheistic viewpoint. Your hypothetical Catholic mobster worships as he does because as far as he is concerned that is the only game in town. There isn't an alternate God to go to.
In a Pantheistic world where pretty much everybody believes in the existence of Gods and knows their particular moral outlooks, someone has options.
Certainly I don't think this invalidates your character concept, but I think it would benefit you to think about this difference and come up with why your character responded to it in the way that he did.
That's PFS. Pathfinder itself has no such restrictions except on clerics.
It all sounds like a fine idea to me. Angst galore!
There are quite a few feats and other abilities that have the same requirements that are not cleric specific. Regardless, allowing someone to gain mechanical benefits from a deity they 'worship' while not actually embodying certain aspects of that deity is purely within the realm of the GM to adjudicate. It goes to reason (not just because the GM says so) that a deity would be hesitant (at the very least) in imparting some of their power to a creature that does not reflect their portfolio.
But, hey. If the GM is cool with it, I say go for it. Don't be surprised when true devotees of that deity start looking to neutralize you. You are, technically, an apostate.
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You might find the Vlad Taltos series by Stephen Brust interesting. The titular character is an assassin, and although in later books he gives it up because he decides that it is wrong in the earlier books he justifies it by 1) he doesn't kill other humans (he lives in a society where humans are a despised minority and the majority are long-lived humanoid, think elves) and 2) Anyone he is paid to kill is probably involved in underworld and probably deserved it because otherwise no one would care enough to fork over the money for the assassination.
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the GM liked it, and it sounds fun to me, so I'm gonna run it
This is half of what's important; the other half is making sure that the rest of your table likes the concept too! Once you have the buy-in from your group, that's really all you need. Sounds totally reasonable to me, though. No reason a character can't be a hypocrite - happens in life all the time.
Unless your character is actually working to redeem himself he cannot be considered a worshiper, because being worshiper of a deity is to work for and toward deities interests.
I don't believe that is in the PF books anywhere, and I just checked the dictionary and it's not there either. Worship is defined as religious reverence/homage/adoration/devotion paid to a god. Work is for zealots.
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I don't believe that is in the PF books anywhere, and I just checked the dictionary and it's not there either. Worship is defined as religious reverence/homage/adoration/devotion paid to a god. Work is for zealots.
A good majority of "religious" people do not draw a distinction between worship and service. As to why that is, I suppose that to truly worship such a being, it is not a matter half measures. Though, half-measures would be perfect for the described character. Loving the ideals but unwilling to actually live by the professed beliefs. Like... in the real world, though without the actual direct evidence of such being's existing.
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I don't believe that is in the PF books anywhere, and I just checked the dictionary and it's not there either. Worship is defined as religious reverence/homage/adoration/devotion paid to a god. Work is for zealots.A good majority of "religious" people do not draw a distinction between worship and service.
I'm pretty sure the majority of religious (or "religious") people know the difference between "worship" and "service." They may serve their deity, their employer, or their government, but they only worship one of those. That their service to the deity arises out of their worship does not alter the meaning of either term.
Hmm, perhaps I was not as eloquent as I intended to be. I'll just say that many consider that worship implies, or requires, service but that service does not necessarily imply worship. That should resolve the confusion between service that is inherent to religion, government, or employer. It should not be assumed that I meant that worship and service are exactly the same thing. However, it would go to reason that service to the higher being you "claim" to worship should supercede such services you offer to much more mundane sources.
Hmm, perhaps I was not as eloquent as I intended to be. I'll just say that many consider that worship implies, or requires, service but that service does not necessarily imply worship.
Fortunately those people are not in charge of the English language, nor of Pathfinder, so their views are irrelevant to what the OP is doing.
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This is devolving into semantics. There is no argument over how this is being defined, merely the application. Service is service, worship is worship. The two overlap in practice. Outside of this, I have no intention to continue the debate.
As Matthew Downie said, you can venerate anybody you like, but if you want to worship something, you need to be within that deity/outsider/force/etc.'s acceptable parameters. That usually means being within one step of the worshipee's alignment, but some are a bit pickier.
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The word "worship" has no mechanical meaning in Pathfinder. Certain classes/feats have their own inherent restrictions that may force a character to be a particular alignment or set of alignments.
From James Jacobs on the subject.
Venerate and worship are synonymous with regards to Pathfinder. Not to bring our world into a gaming discussion, but people have historically done hideous, abominable things in the name of "good" Earthly deities and were "pious" and "devoted" in their own minds, following what they truly believed were the teachings of their deity.
There is nothing in Pathfinder to prevent this kind of character. The GM thinks it's an interesting idea. Maybe it wouldn't fly at your table, but it's going to at theirs. Playing such a character could be a fascinating roleplaying opportunity. It is highly probable that the character will find themselves in an interesting scenario as a result of this disconnect.
There is nothing in Pathfinder to prevent this kind of character. The GM thinks it's an interesting idea. Maybe it wouldn't fly at your table, but it's going to at theirs. Playing such a character could be a fascinating roleplaying opportunity. It is highly probable that the character will find themselves in an interesting scenario as a result of this disconnect.
You are correct. There is nothing stopping the GM from allowing this kind of character to exist.
The only problem with "pious" and good" characters (in their own minds) doing horrible things is that they can not escape the universe from labeling them Evil nor can they argue with it. This will definitely result in the character being put into interesting scenarios, unless they take great precautions to mask their alignment, or the GM handwaives the issue.
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One thing that everyone one seems to be ignoring is that in Pathfinder the gods take a more active approach to thing. I don’t want to get into the whole God is real argument so I am only going to address the gods in the game.
The way I see it a deity in pathfinder is going to take an interest in those claiming to follow them. If a character who claims to worship a deity continually violates the deity’s teachings and codes the deity is going to take steps. If the behavior is only a minor infraction, or is infrequent they will probably not do too much. If the character is flagrantly and frequently violating the deities teaching there will probably be some sort of intervention. The level of the character may also play a part in this.
So in the example of the OP I would have Sarenrae send him a dream. If he continues his behavior the dreams more specific and eventually she makes it clear that he is rejecting her and she turns away from him. If he really is a worshiper and the deity makes it abundantly clear that his behavior is not acceptable he is going to have to make a choice.
Another way to handle this would be to be neutral instead of evil. A neutral character can occasionally do evil without becoming evil. So this character would for the most part act good, but occasionally murder bad people. Being an evil character is more than just doing evil once in a while, just as being a good character is more than doing the occasional good deeed.
The best way to pull this off would be a true neutral inquisitor to Sarenrae. Since she is neutral good true neutral is within one step of his alignment.
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OT1H, Sarenrae is particularly famous for not intervening when her followers get something wrong.
Sarenrae believes in allowing her followers to understand their own truths—a lesson preached again and again in her holy text The Birth of Light and Truth, even to the point that the last few pages of each copy are left blank for each individual owner to fill in their own additions. While this philosophy has led many to enlightenment, throughout the ages Sarenrae’s faith has been plagued by schisms from those who have misunderstood her portents. While each of these breaks pains Sarenrae’s heart, she would have it no other way, for the capacity to forgive one’s self and correct one’s past mistakes is perhaps the greatest act of redemption there can be.
OTOH she does act sometimes, of course. Here's her usual.
Her displeasure is most often made apparent through unexplained sunburns or periods of blindness that can last anywhere from only a few moments for minor transgressions to a lifetime for mortal sins.
I don't understand Golarion's deities at all. Either you're able/willing to meddle in the affairs of mortals, or you aren't. If there's nothing keeping Sarenrae from meddling, why oh why would she give people sunburns or temporary blindness? That's just petty.
You'd think that a goddess who cares about people would be at work overthrowing one of the many evil empires that plagues the setting, or massacring demons at the Worldwound, instead of just watching people fight and die, on occasion giving evildoers sunburns.
Your hypothetical Catholic mobster worships as he does because as far as he is concerned that is the only game in town. There isn't an alternate God to go to.
In a Pantheistic world where pretty much everybody believes in the existence of Gods and knows their particular moral outlooks, someone has options.
Well, none of the demon lords and evil gods I've seen actually save their parishioners from torture or being turned into an outsider. So, unless you're actually getting divine power from them, I see little point in following an evil god, rather than following a good one and hoping you'll make it to heaven.
Uh, to quote Saint Augustine, before his heel-face turn:
O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet.
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I don't understand Golarion's deities at all. Either you're able/willing to meddle in the affairs of mortals, or you aren't. If there's nothing keeping Sarenrae from meddling, why oh why would she give people sunburns or temporary blindness? That's just petty.
You'd think that a goddess who cares about people would be at work overthrowing one of the many evil empires that plagues the setting, or massacring demons at the Worldwound, instead of just watching people fight and die, on occasion giving evildoers sunburns.
Heh. I believe (but cannot prove) that the idea is she does these things to her own worshippers when they transgress; that is, the "no meddling" agreement among the gods allows you to grant your clerics spells and it allows you to admonish your own worshippers. But giving random non-sarenrae-worshipping evil people sunburns would be a violation, as would killing them.
I don't understand Golarion's deities at all. Either you're able/willing to meddle in the affairs of mortals, or you aren't. If there's nothing keeping Sarenrae from meddling, why oh why would she give people sunburns or temporary blindness? That's just petty.
You'd think that a goddess who cares about people would be at work overthrowing one of the many evil empires that plagues the setting, or massacring demons at the Worldwound, instead of just watching people fight and die, on occasion giving evildoers sunburns.
Okay, let's pretend Sarenrae decides to pop down to the Material and start killing bad guys. One of two things happens. Either 1: Other gods gang up to stop her from doing that to prevent option 2; or 2: Every single other god realizes the truce is off and they all go messing around directly with mortal affairs. If you're having a hard time imagining what the second scenario might look like, try reading Revelations some time.
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Yep, then we stop playing Pathfinder and start playing Exalted.
Okay, let's pretend Sarenrae decides to pop down to the Material and start killing bad guys. One of two things happens. Either 1: Other gods gang up to stop her from doing that to prevent option 2; or 2: Every single other god realizes the truce is off and they all go messing around directly with mortal affairs. If you're having a hard time imagining what the second scenario might look like, try reading Revelations some time.
I think you drastically underestimate the abilities of Golarion's gods. Nothing in Revelations ever demonstrated power comparable to that of a twentieth level caster, let alone the unstatted ambiguous abilities of Golarion's deities.
But I digress.
The single thing I find most infuriating about the Golarion setting, and, honestly, my only real complaint, is the inconsistency of their goddesses and gods. I understand that the gods have some sort of pact mumbo-jumbo keeping them from interfering with mortals . . . except not really, because they still interfere with mortals. They still send prophetic dreams and perform miracles and save adventurers who are in dire straits, but only once a campaign. So . . . are they allowed to interfere, or not?
But, even if there wasn't this glaring problem of inconsistency (or, even if I somehow misunderstand and there is no glaring problem of inconsistency) there still isn't any good reason for the gods to make such a pact in the first place!
No benevolent god could allow such things as lycanthropy or malaria or Rovagug cults to exist and hurt people. Any god that sits on their ass and watches mortals suffer and die without lifting a finger to help is clearly not a benevolent deity.
Since the goodly gods couldn't sit idly and watch Chelish expansionists murdering their way across Varisia without forfeiting their status as goodly gods, since no paladin with remove disease on their spell list could walk through a plague-ridden town without stopping to provide succor, neither can the gods that paladins strive to emulate. The benevolent deities have no motive to enter a pact limiting their powers to act against injustice or malfortune, to do so would be against their very nature.
Plenty of settings have arbitrary justifications for why powerful entities don't change the status quo, but I find pretty much all of them to be sins against verisimilitude. If the evil gods want to spread evil, and the good gods want to stop the spread of evil, the good and evil gods will come into conflict.
I'm assuming that the gods, being practically omniscient, and at least having access to legend lore, have fairly accurate pictures of each others abilities. Whichever side knows itself to have the advantage would immediately act on that advantage, since a moments delay could forfeit it. (When you're dealing with the kind of magic that shapes the very planes of existence, I presume there's something of a first mover advantage.)
In my view, simply existing in the same universe as each other would cause an immediate confrontation and the elimination of one diefic faction or the other.
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The gods do know each other's powers! They know that, after Rovagug, the most powerful deity by a long shot is Asmodeus.
If the only thing preventing Asmodeus from waltzing directly onto Golarion and declaring it his domain is Iomedae agreeing not to do the same, then Iomedae doesn't really have a choice in that matter.
For Asmodeus's part, it isn't really to his advantage to plunge Golarion into a planet-sundering war of mythological proportions, but he can use the threat as leverage.
I think you drastically underestimate the abilities of Golarion's gods. Nothing in Revelations ever demonstrated power comparable to that of a twentieth level caster, let alone the unstatted ambiguous abilities of Golarion's deities.
It is usually just simpler to remember that Golarian's deities are just really powerful being, some actually previously human (or mortal) that have ascended to a higher plane of existence/power. They are not omniscient or omnipotent. They have serious pull in area of their domain but they are still ONE being (though one that can seriously multitask). And they likely have other issues occupying their attention than what is currently happening on Golarion, like perhaps guarding the borders of reality of 'other' forces or making sure that the universe keeps working properly within their domain. We also have to remember that death is not the end in this universe and temporary pain on the mortal realm is fleeting, and possibly not the huge concern we give it in real life.
We can't really know as mortals. All we know is that they choose to grant specific worshipers a sample of their power to minister to their base of power, to keep their power flowing, and on occasion they send a dream or two to others. These beings wield power that can warp the very fabric of reality with a simply thought, something vastly different than th powers a wizard can eventually wield (even his has limits). Their lack of direct action most likely preserves the stability of the world.
In the case of saranrae the reason she doesn't interfere with her worshipers is because she did once and has regretted it ever since. It involves her wiping a city out and everyone in it because of some insult.
EtG
Plus if you want diefic intervention that was what happened in the realms fairly dramatically.
EtG
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In the case of saranrae the reason she doesn't interfere with her worshipers is because she did once and has regretted it ever since. It involves her wiping a city out and everyone in it because of some insult.
EtG
Said "insult" being the inhabitants of the city butchering her herald when they came to save them.
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Also, if the point of mortal life is to nurture souls, and one of the main mythological points of the setting being the free-agency of mortal souls to choose their own path (Asmodeus vs Ihys), then the good gods can't really do everything for the mortals. They have to give us the opportunity to rise to the occasion ourselves.
It's like doing someone's else's homework, versus tutoring them. The first leaves them no smarter/better, though it does alleviate the immediate pressure on them. The second helps them grow.
Let's not all forget that Golarion has its own personal deity that actually inhabits the world physically, and no, I am not talking about Rovagug (who is imprisoned deep within it). Who is it, you might ask? Why, Gozreh, of course.
Any actual deity that physically attempts to interact with Golarion without going through an intermediary has to deal with that issue. Gozreh might not actually do anything, but if you endanger any of his/her domains and spheres of influence, you are going to have a serious problem.
This is a great idea for roleplay, but as others have stated, evil characters don't get game benefits from "worshiping"good deities.
Cool! People who disagree with me. I must admit, for an advocate of Asmodeus, this is like Christmas come early. Let us match rhetoric!
For Asmodeus's part, it isn't really to his advantage to plunge Golarion into a planet-sundering war of mythological proportions, but he can use the threat as leverage.
Not sure I buy that one . . . Asmodeus seems pretty happy to have Cheliax as his personal devil-factory, soul refinery of sorts. If he could beat the other gods in a fight, you'd think he'd do it and take over the entire planet.
The reason they have the agreement to work by proxy is because if they were to all start actually facing off against eachother, they know Golarion would be destroyed,
Well, that's what single target spells are for, neh?
I don't see why we'd assume their fight would destroy Golorian, or, indeed, even take place on the material plane.
We also have to remember that death is not the end in this universe and temporary pain on the mortal realm is fleeting, and possibly not the huge concern we give it in real life.
Instead of being the end, death is the beginning. Each mortal life, few of which last longer than a century, spawns an outsider, which lasts pretty much forever. Mortal lives are important, and it's really important to make sure that mortals die with the right alignment. This is something that the gods claim to be very invested in, and have every motive to be very invested in, and yet is something that they don't seem to take seriously at all.
Their lack of direct action most likely preserves the stability of the world.
That strikes me, rather than as most likely, as very improbable. Why couldn't they just not take actions that would endanger reality, while still having as much of an influence on the world as a full caster? A twentieth level cleric can cast cure light wounds at caster level one. Are you telling me the gods can't work out how to do that?
In the case of saranrae the reason she doesn't interfere with her worshipers is because she did once and has regretted it ever since. It involves her wiping a city out and everyone in it because of some insult.
Immediate reaction: make faces at screen in disgust.
What's the point of whatever pact the gods have if it doesn't stop apocalyptic lunatics from throwing tantrums and committing genocide??
I was already kind of miffed about the inconsistency of the god's pact mumbo jumbo. But if it isn't enforced at all, if there's no level at which the other gods try and stop you, why does it exist?
Said "insult" being the inhabitants of the city butchering her herald when they came to save them.
To which murdering children and noncombatants was clearly a rational and measured response. To which murdering people who couldn't possibly have had anything to do with the heraldacide was clearly a rational and measured response. Ain't nobody gonna contest that.
Sarenrae be like, "what is up mah three year old hoomans! Y'all wanna here a joke? Yo mamma soooo blasphemous I visited mah divine retribution on her kids. That wasn't actually a joke. I'm here to kill you."
Like, seriously, who writes that? I can kinda understand where a buncha pre-medieval goat herders are coming from when they write about their diety flooding the world or burning a city to the ground. They just don't ascribe moral significance to murdering children. That's cool, I hate kids too. But Paizo?? Paizo is a modern company! What's up with their NG sun god murdering innocents? That's nutty.
Is there key situational context I'm missing? Did all the kids have lycanthropy and were gonna change alignment in the next coupla days and Sarenrae had to smite their asses before they got damned to the Abyss?
Let's not all forget that Golarion has its own personal deity that actually inhabits the world physically, and no, I am not talking about Rovagug (who is imprisoned deep within it). Who is it, you might ask? Why, Gozreh, of course.
Any actual deity that physically attempts to interact with Golarion without going through an intermediary has to deal with that issue. Gozreh might not actually do anything, but if you endanger any of his/her domains and spheres of influence, you are going to have a serious problem.
That . . . actually isn't a bad fan theory.
I mean, it'd be nice if it was stated anywhere, anywhere at all, but eh, many works require the fans to make sense of them rather than making sense to the fans.
Until I find something better, Gozreh forbidding the other deities act on their soil is my new headcannon.
Welp, this is getting kind of long, so I'll end it here. (Though I think the formatting and such might make it look longer than it really is.)
Is there key situational context I'm missing?
That city was Gormuz.
Hmmm ... in that case, what kind of idiot god sends their herald there? If they’re all irredeemably Evil, you’d think Sarenrae coulda worked that out some other way then trial and error.
But really, why didn’t Sarenrae use her deific magic to cast antipathy on the Ravogog corrupted place long before people settling there became a problem? Or even after it became a problem, she could have easily evacuated the city and equipped everyone with a helm of opposite alignment. Letting them die while Evil aligned means condemning them to centuries of torture and eventual demonification.
No, I don’t think Sarenrae handled that very well at all.
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She didn't, and I think Sarenrae would agree with that assessment. Golarion gods, even the Good ones, are more Greek than Hebrew; they're imperfect and capable of making mistakes in the pursuit of their ideals.
I’m a fairly average intelligence human with an abysmal wisdom score, and yet without even stopping to think about it I can see several obvious solutions to the Gormuz problem.
There are believable mistakes that flawed characters can make. And then there’s the unbelievable stupidity displayed by Sarenrae here. I don’t mean unbelievable as in, “omg i cant believes it,” I mean unbelievable as in it pulls me right out of my suspension of disbelief. It’s unreal.
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I mean, if you wanna go there, why didn't she just true resurrection* her herald? Folklore is weird. Folklore in a world with extremely versatile magic is weirder.
Ha. Sarenrae.
Cult of the Dawnflower.