Things You are Disappointed We Never Got From PF1 (And as such hope to see in PF2)


Prerelease Discussion

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Vidmaster7 wrote:
3rd party will surprise you sometimes. Good stuff can be found.

I'm assuming this was about me wishing for better Construct rules.

I mean yeah, but it's convincing the DM at the time to roll with it. My group tends to bend the rules, allow odd ideas, and just play differently(Gunslinger isn't doing stupid damage past the level he's supposed to and Sorcerer isn't ending fights)...

But 3rd party is something we tend not to dip in often. Usually 1 per game gets to pick up something 3rd party or homebrewed from the ground up rather than trying to take something in system and refluffing/working it into something else.


The Sideromancer wrote:
The wyrwood in the ARG were examples of the race builder being used. The book is also the first source for kasatha for the same reason.

Wacky stuff. Thanks for explaining that for me and saving me the effort of digging out that book and combing through it.


I was always disappointed when a new player race (0 HD race) got introduced in a bestiary as there were not much information about these races and how they fit into the world in general. Some of the earlier ones eventually got some attention in companion books over the years, but those that came out later--I have little to no idea what to make of them (such as the vishkanya, astomoi or rougarou). In PF2, I kinda hope they reserve introducing new playable ancestries to books that can afford the space to really let us know more about them, especially if their basic idea is fairly far out from anything we might commonly experience in the game or other fantasy media.

Also I always wanted an unchained summoner with an eidolon that was more magic-based instead of physical and the summoner being tailored to being more of the combatant. Something like the eidolon with limited spells like abilities per day and replacing their STR boost with a CHA boost. Basically to create a healing/buffing angel eidolon or a hellfire hurling demon and so forth.


Kage_no_Oukami wrote:

I was always disappointed when a new player race (0 HD race) got introduced in a bestiary as there were not much information about these races and how they fit into the world in general. Some of the earlier ones eventually got some attention in companion books over the years, but those that came out later--I have little to no idea what to make of them (such as the vishkanya, astomoi or rougarou). In PF2, I kinda hope they reserve introducing new playable ancestries to books that can afford the space to really let us know more about them, especially if their basic idea is fairly far out from anything we might commonly experience in the game or other fantasy media.

Also I always wanted an unchained summoner with an eidolon that was more magic-based instead of physical and the summoner being tailored to being more of the combatant. Something like the eidolon with limited spells like abilities per day and replacing their STR boost with a CHA boost. Basically to create a healing/buffing angel eidolon or a hellfire hurling demon and so forth.

I really like that summoner variant. That would have been a cool archetype or even a cool new class.


I took a stab at doing that with the devil binder summoner from Adventurer's Guide (though it doesn't really change the summoner, only the eidolon). While it's devil- and Hellknight-specific in the book, it's modular enough that variants for other outsider types should be easy enough to manage.

Hopefully, if and when summoner hits PF2, that sort of option will be baked in and made more versatile. ^_^


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Isabelle Lee wrote:

I took a stab at doing that with the devil binder summoner from Adventurer's Guide (though it doesn't really change the summoner, only the eidolon). While it's devil- and Hellknight-specific in the book, it's modular enough that variants for other outsider types should be easy enough to manage.

Hopefully, if and when summoner hits PF2, that sort of option will be baked in and made more versatile. ^_^

That is another one that was kind of after my time being super into PF1E. Looking at it now, that is a pretty interesting archetype for sure. Having your eidolon being kind of garbage in martial combat kind of "frees up" the eidolon to take weirder evolutions and/or more spell-like abilities. I dig it.

I think I like your design sensibilities, Isabelle. I hope you take that for the grave insult that it is.


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Isabelle Lee wrote:

I took a stab at doing that with the devil binder summoner from Adventurer's Guide (though it doesn't really change the summoner, only the eidolon). While it's devil- and Hellknight-specific in the book, it's modular enough that variants for other outsider types should be easy enough to manage.

Hopefully, if and when summoner hits PF2, that sort of option will be baked in and made more versatile. ^_^

Hmm...I will have to look into that. Admittedly I kinda glossed over that entry myself as I was deep into a campaign and tended to only look at new magic items or spells to reward my group with. Good to know!


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While we're on the subject; Martial Summoner?

Cough okay lemme get to the actual crux of what I would like. Teamwork feats to not be such clunky messes. I've played around and looked at things and the easiest way to get around them not being annoying or feeling like it's a dead feat for the most part, is to get some sort of Companion.

So to not be completely dead, you need to play a Companion class. Summoner, Druid, Brawler Wild Child, anything that gives you a customizable buddy.

Maybe fix this?


MerlinCross wrote:

While we're on the subject; Martial Summoner?

Cough okay lemme get to the actual crux of what I would like. Teamwork feats to not be such clunky messes. I've played around and looked at things and the easiest way to get around them not being annoying or feeling like it's a dead feat for the most part, is to get some sort of Companion.

So to not be completely dead, you need to play a Companion class. Summoner, Druid, Brawler Wild Child, anything that gives you a customizable buddy.

Maybe fix this?

Well, for PF1E you also need your companion to have the teamwork feats. The Hunter class is designed around exactly that paradigm along with them being able to cast buff spells on themselves and their companion with the same action. Outside of the Hunter, I think most companions can only take teamwork feats if their intelligence is 3 or higher (since otherwise they are limited to a small number of "animal" feats or whatever).

Also, teamwork feats can be great if you actually talk to your friends and build your characters specifically to work together. Some people have builds in mind that they would prefer to play though, and I know that isn't always workable.

On martial summoner: I sort of think of it like you fighting with your guardian angel providing buffs, support, and/or spell damage. To turn it into an anime reference, it is kind of a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure stand sort of thing.


Excaliburproxy wrote:


On martial summoner: I sort of think of it like you fighting with your guardian angel providing buffs, support, and/or spell damage. To turn it into an anime reference, it is kind of a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure stand sort of thing.

Maybe this is just me not being deep enough into Jojo to follow, but at least from what I've seen/gleaned, the vast majority of Stands are very much the "stand around/pose while your summon does the heavy lifting" (Of course you could just say everyone's a martial on the merit of being jacked as hell, at least before the style shift went more toward the fabulous end of the spectrum rather than beefcake)

Plus that concept just seems rather janky to me being more or less what amounts to a buff/crush cleric build only without those silly action economy issues


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:


On martial summoner: I sort of think of it like you fighting with your guardian angel providing buffs, support, and/or spell damage. To turn it into an anime reference, it is kind of a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure stand sort of thing.

Maybe this is just me not being deep enough into Jojo to follow, but at least from what I've seen/gleaned, the vast majority of Stands are very much the "stand around/pose while your summon does the heavy lifting" (Of course you could just say everyone's a martial on the merit of being jacked as hell, at least before the style shift went more toward the fabulous end of the spectrum rather than beefcake)

Plus that concept just seems rather janky to me being more or less what amounts to a buff/crush cleric build only without those silly action economy issues

To be fair, I guess it is maybe more like the JoJo's fighting games.

I think there are almost certainly good ways to have the martial summoner concept be interesting, especially with PF2's action economy. I could go off on on how I'd maybe approach designing that class in PF1 , though:
You could make your summon a real glass cannon (like: 1/4 character HP) that simultaneously gives the summoner some passive buffs and can use its turn each round to give out buffs or spell damage each round. The Summondude himself would probably have some basic combat aptitude (a little ways sub-fighter in damage and accuracy with the buffs up while being less durable) but he would have abilities that could tactically maneuver and protect his summon (like the ability to trade places with your summon over a certain distance or take damage for the summon once a round).

I think it could be a mechanically interesting dynamic.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One thing I just remembered: in 3.5, I tinkered with an analogue to the bard using the profession skill (I called it a moneymancer) and also one that used knowledge skills and skill checks. They were very terrible, so I won't bother linking either.

BUT I would like to see what Paizo could do. The alchemist looks like an interesting use of the craft skill. Lore right now is slightly boring. Useful, but boring. It does not need to be. Maybe the new Medium will allow for Lore checks to control possessing spirits? Or Summoners?


Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Maybe this is just me not being deep enough into Jojo to follow, but at least from what I've seen/gleaned, the vast majority of Stands are very much the "stand around/pose while your summon does the heavy lifting" (Of course you could just say everyone's a martial on the merit of being jacked as hell, at least before the style shift went more toward the fabulous end of the spectrum rather than beefcake)

Plus that concept just seems rather janky to me being more or less what amounts to a buff/crush cleric build only without those silly action economy issues

That's like, a thing. It was my main issue with stands at first. Part 6 gets around it a bit though (protag's turns her into string, sapient plankton is its own stand, a damage transmitter one, and one fairly lame Feng Shui one that gives borderline-precog advice to the user)

Anyways. For summoner in PF2...
I still need check how PF2 Druid animal companions work, though I hear they grow and become unique with you. Maybe the following is the basis of either what's likely or an easy way to handle it:

  • Spell progression of Bard -10th level, 3 spells and slots per level.
  • Choice of summon lineage, similar to Sorcerer Bloodline. Like Sorcerer Bloodline it affects spell list and signature skills. It also affects the summon tags and possibly grants spell point powers that can be invoked on the summon.
  • Animal companion, except it's an outsider with tags determined by summon lineage, and possibly has a couple of other options (e.g. amphibious).

Edit: Based on what has been noted above. Extra spell point powers, as well as expanding the pool, could include stuff like giving lay on hands to an angel summon. You can probably cannibalise the monk and paladin pool for a lot of usable powers (as well as some bloodline things, e.g. glutton's jaws).


Elleth wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Maybe this is just me not being deep enough into Jojo to follow, but at least from what I've seen/gleaned, the vast majority of Stands are very much the "stand around/pose while your summon does the heavy lifting" (Of course you could just say everyone's a martial on the merit of being jacked as hell, at least before the style shift went more toward the fabulous end of the spectrum rather than beefcake)

Plus that concept just seems rather janky to me being more or less what amounts to a buff/crush cleric build only without those silly action economy issues

That's like, a thing. It was my main issue with stands at first. Part 6 gets around it a bit though (protag's turns her into string, sapient plankton is its own stand, a damage transmitter one, and one fairly lame Feng Shui one that gives borderline-precog advice to the user)

Anyways. For summoner in PF2...
I still need check how PF2 Druid animal companions work, though I hear they grow and become unique with you. Maybe the following is the basis of either what's likely or an easy way to handle it:

  • Spell progression of Bard -10th level, 3 spells and slots per level.
  • Choice of summon lineage, similar to Sorcerer Bloodline. Like Sorcerer Bloodline it affects spell list and signature skills. It also affects the summon tags and possibly grants spell point powers that can be invoked on the summon.
  • Animal companion, except it's an outsider with tags determined by summon lineage, and possibly has a couple of other options (e.g. amphibious).

Edit: Based on what has been noted above. Extra spell point powers, as well as expanding the pool, could include stuff like giving lay on hands to an angel summon. You can probably cannibalise the monk and paladin pool for a lot of usable powers (as well as some bloodline things, e.g. glutton's jaws).

I quite like the idea of the summoner ditching the eidolon and instead having a levelling outsider companion or just being a spellcaster who is really good at summon spells who can buff their summons. The eidolon seemed a bit weird and exotic, while a devil or angel friend fits into the setting a lot better.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Lessee, a Summoner can have several lineages:

Outsiders, possibly Undead? - All on the divine list I think
Ethereal Phantom, Cohort*, Abberant - Occult list
Elementals, Fey, Plants, and an Animal - Primal
Golem, Ooze, Astral Construct- Arcane

*I call this subclass "Leadership Feat"
Except for most of the primals, I can see almost any of them winding up associated with a different spell list, or no spell list. And even there, Animals and Plants would take the most work to keep from stepping on the druids toes, so perhaps associating them with a different spell list would help.


My wishlist:

- Atributes tied to what they do, not to classes, all classes can make use of the 6 atributes to some degree.

- Armor giving some DR like ability and not messing with your dexterity modifier.

- Strength lessening the penalty of armor (making stronger characters more benefitial to heavier armors)

- HP having a high start and giving few points per level. Making weapons threats, but compensated by heavier armor.

- Int for number of spells and skills, Wis for resistance against mind effects and willpower, charisma for extra spell slots/spell potency.


RafaelBraga wrote:

My wishlist:

- Atributes tied to what they do, not to classes, all classes can make use of the 6 atributes to some degree.

- Armor giving some DR like ability and not messing with your dexterity modifier.

- Strength lessening the penalty of armor (making stronger characters more benefitial to heavier armors)

- HP having a high start and giving few points per level. Making weapons threats, but compensated by heavier armor.

- Int for number of spells and skills, Wis for resistance against mind effects and willpower, charisma for extra spell slots/spell potency.

I think that some of these things run contrary to the design of 2E Pathfinder as we know it so far. Armor as DR messes with the critical hit math quite a bit. We also know that attributes don’t effect your number of spells outside of spell powers and stuff like the Cleric’s Channel Positive energy.

Or are you saying that you would want this stuff in something like 2e’s version of unchained?


Excaliburproxy wrote:


I think that some of these things run contrary to the design of 2E Pathfinder as we know it so far. Armor as DR messes with the critical hit math quite a bit. We also know that attributes don’t effect your number of spells outside of spell powers and stuff like the Cleric’s Channel Positive energy.

Or are you saying that you would want this stuff in something like 2e’s version of unchained?

Well, the title said "things i was disappointed PF1 and hope goes into PF2."

To be honest, not bashing, just stating :P, i think that armor changing to hit mess MUCH more with a crit system than some kind of DR.

I was in the proccess in the last few weeks since i finished college of designing a RPG system for myself. My first go, just to taste the grounds, were to remake the class system from 5ed, with some tweaked changes to what attributes and what they do and some minor changes to the mechanics of the game itself, but keeping it close enough to 5ed to "port" it without much trouble from any ongoing 5ed campaign.

On a more ambitious and long term goal, i was to design a completely new system and was just brainstorming about what i want and want not to include. Then i came across the list of changes of PF2. And specially the action system caught my eye cause it was VERY close to one of my brainstorms... including spells being able to do more with more actions.

Then i decided to hold on my development for a while and if the system appeals to me more, and is easier to change, i can make instead of "Advanced/Unchained Dungeons and Dragons", "Advanced/Unchained Pathfinder 2".

I am still keeping notes of everyone good ideas from the system (including ideas on this forum), and maybe someday i will have patience and motivation to work all this out :)


Interesting use of antimagic, to where it was not a complete nerf and its CR mod was easier to gauge.

Lack of this in PF1 had some consequences when it came to story. If you as a GM wanted to toss antimagic at someone, it tended to be all-or-nothing. It also tended to enable, and forgive me here, "lazy GMing" where it was all about taking everything away from PCs to provide a challenge--instead of something more tactical.

It also made the challenge rating adjustment rather difficult, if you disabled MIs, spells, and so on. I'd love for PF2 to offer more nuanced approaches.


The brawler came close, but I want a rip-the-heads-of-ogres type that really delivers.


MuddyVolcano wrote:

Interesting use of antimagic, to where it was not a complete nerf and its CR mod was easier to gauge.

Lack of this in PF1 had some consequences when it came to story. If you as a GM wanted to toss antimagic at someone, it tended to be all-or-nothing. It also tended to enable, and forgive me here, "lazy GMing" where it was all about taking everything away from PCs to provide a challenge--instead of something more tactical.

It also made the challenge rating adjustment rather difficult, if you disabled MIs, spells, and so on. I'd love for PF2 to offer more nuanced approaches.

Could be fun to make monsters that area and line spells pass straight through, or that have reactions that can catch and hurl back spells with attack rolls (like acid splash, or ray spells) or perhaps allow them to bounce back spells on critical save successes.

Conversely, could be fun to have some sort of juggernaut with a "spell bulwark" that protects a cone behind it from AOE and line spells that fail to overcome damage resistance or something (or rather, it applies resist 20 to everyone in that cone from that specific source of damage, or ups their save category or something).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MuddyVolcano wrote:
It also made the challenge rating adjustment rather difficult, if you disabled MIs, spells, and so on. I'd love for PF2 to offer more nuanced approaches.

There’s some modularity, like certain planar traits enhancing or impeding various magic keywords, and the variant magic channeling cleric ability.

Both might be easier to use in PF2, I hope. Can you imagine something else that might work to tell that kind of story? Hazards that trigger on spellcast perhaps?

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