Treat Deadly Wounds better than cure spells?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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How do you suppose this:

Healer's Hands (Conduit)
Source Planar Adventures pg. 28
Your healing efforts are bolstered by positive energy.

Prerequisites: Heal 1 rank, Knowledge (planes) 1 rank.

Benefit: You can use the Heal skill to treat deadly wounds as a full-round action. You do not take a penalty for not using a healer’s kit when treating deadly wounds this way, and you can do so on a given creature more than once per day. When treating deadly wounds this way, if your result exceeds the DC by 10 or more, add your ranks in Knowledge (planes) to the damage healed. These benefits do not apply to creatures that are not healed by positive energy. You can use this feat’s benefit a number of times per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (planes).

And this:

Incredible Healer
Source Blood of the Ancients pg. 20
You are able to treat deadly wounds with an almost supernatural skill.

Prerequisites: Heal 5 ranks.

Benefit: When you use the Heal skill to treat deadly wounds, the target heals a number of hit points equal to either the result of your Heal check or the normal amount, whichever is higher. A creature can still benefit from having deadly wounds treated no more than once per day.

Interact together?

It’s a little slow coming online but it appears that on a succesful DC 30 heal check, a character will be healing gobs of HP in a full round action: 30 + target’s HD + 10 (2 x knowledge ranks, presumably kept maxed) + wisdom score bonus (for exceeding the DC by 5) = mid 40’s to low 50’s depending on your wisdom score and the target’s HD. This is potentially at level 5, when 30 is a difficult but not unachievable DC, more than once on any given character and a number of times equal to your knowledge ranks! And it scales!

It seems llike these two feats will make TDW pay off better than the various single target cure spells of appropriate level. CSW is 3d8 + CL so maxes out at 29 at level 5, for example.

So am I missing something or do they work nicely together and is the healing better than the relevant cure spells assuming max ranks in knowledge (planes) and heal?

The Exchange

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I would say that Incredible Healer is pretty clearly an "either." They either regain the result of your heal check (unmodified by anything else) -or- the amount based on the other interactions (including Healer's Hands).


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Incredible Healing swaps your result for the amount healed, it's not additive.

So it would be d20+ Heal Skill Ranks and bonuses + Wisdom Modifier + Ranks in Knowledge (planes) (but not bonuses).


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That still pretty good healing, better than most of the cure spells.

And doesn't require spell casting.

I like it. If I was going to make a non-casting healer character I would definitely pick these up.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

You can also only do it "a number of times per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (Planes)"- so your level times per day.

It's also a full round action, so you can't move to them and then use it.


The big thing you folks are missing is that it takes a full round to use, so you can only move 5ft. Heal spells are standard actions and as touch spells can be held between rounds allowing you much greater mobility.

Additionally, outside of the RAWest GMs it probably provokes attacks of opportunity.


Well I need this suppliment for my mundane healer...


I'd throw in one of those medical kits that add in wisdom bonus when you heal. Easy to afford around level 5. You'd grab wisdom plus wisdom plus planes plus hit die. That's pretty impressive. Maybe 20 hitpoints at that level.

I'm assuming you still CAN use heal kits with that feat.


I think there is a chest item vest of surgical precision maybe? That adds some nice bonuses.

If they had another reason to dip oracle, or VMC life oracle's Healing Hands revelation would combo well I imagine.... two people per full round action could actually have an effect in battle if need be.

I need.. to dig up my old "mundane healer" build and see if I can find the other stuff I had had in it that helped.

....I feel like this really would combo great with Skill Unlock Heal

Heal
With sufficient ranks in Heal, you earn the following.

5 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit points and ability damage as if it had rested for a full day.

10 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit points as if it had rested for a full day with long-term care.

15 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the creature recovers hit point and ability damage as if it had rested for 3 days.

20 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit point and ability damage as if it had rested for 3 days with long-term care.


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ShroudedInLight wrote:

The big thing you folks are missing is that it takes a full round to use, so you can only move 5ft. Heal spells are standard actions and as touch spells can be held between rounds allowing you much greater mobility.

Additionally, outside of the RAWest GMs it probably provokes attacks of opportunity.

Oh yeah, it's definitely got some draw backs, but I was mostly looking at it in terms of non-magical healing options for out of combat.

For thematic reasons.


Are those heal unlocks in addition to the normal healing from treating deadly wounds, or instead of?

Ive never really looked at unlocks before, but would a level 20 character with Healer's Hands and Signature Skill be able to heal:
((1hp x target level) + (12 x target level) + (Knowledge: Planes)) + Wisdom
aka
(20 + 240 + 20) + (lets say 5 wisdom) = 285 damage as a full round action, up to 20 times per day?

Any misunderstandings here about how the unlocks work or is this accurate?


Reducing the time for Treat Deadly Wounds from 1 hour to 1 round is a vast improvement, but Treat Deadly Wounds still has the severe limit that it can be used only once per day per person.

Treat Deadly Wounds
Requirement: You must expend two uses from a healer’s kit to perform this task. You take a –2 penalty on your check for each use from a healer’s kit that you lack.

When treating deadly wounds, you can restore hit points to a damaged creature. Treating deadly wounds restores 1 hit point per level of the creature. If you exceed the DC by 5 or more, add your Wisdom modifier (if positive) to this amount. A creature can only benefit from its deadly wounds being treated within 24 hours of being injured and never more than once per day.

Action/Time: 1 hour.

Retry? Varies. Generally speaking, you can’t try a Heal check again without witnessing proof of the original check’s failure.

The Exchange

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Mathmuse wrote:
Reducing the time for Treat Deadly Wounds from 1 hour to 1 round is a vast improvement, but Treat Deadly Wounds still has the severe limit that it can be used only once per day per person.

Healer's Hands takes care of that limit as well.

Quote:
You do not take a penalty for not using a healer’s kit when treating deadly wounds this way, and you can do so on a given creature more than once per day. . . You can use this feat’s benefit a number of times per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (planes)


So were the numbers I mentioned accurate or have I got the wrong idea of how it works?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Morbid Eels wrote:
So were the numbers I mentioned accurate or have I got the wrong idea of how it works?

They were wrong in that you were including the calculations for the ordinary amount, rather than substituting the check result.

Assuming that the additional amount added for knowledge planes ranks can overlay on top of the substituted check result, best case is-

Check result plus ranks in Knowledge planes.

That leaves out any of the targets hit dice, ect.

So, at 5th level it would be-

Wis (let's say 5) plus heal modifier (5 ranks, 3 for class skill, maybe 2 from a trait for 10ish?) Plus d20

So that's like +15- you'd need to roll 5 or better to make the DC 20 required and heal 20-29 damage as a full round action.

If you rolled 15 or better in this scenario you'd then get to add knowledge planes (so 15-20 would result in 35-40 healed).


Nathanael Love wrote:
Morbid Eels wrote:
So were the numbers I mentioned accurate or have I got the wrong idea of how it works?

They were wrong in that you were including the calculations for the ordinary amount, rather than substituting the check result.

Assuming that the additional amount added for knowledge planes ranks can overlay on top of the substituted check result, best case is-

Check result plus ranks in Knowledge planes.

That leaves out any of the targets hit dice, ect.

So, at 5th level it would be-

Wis (let's say 5) plus heal modifier (5 ranks, 3 for class skill, maybe 2 from a trait for 10ish?) Plus d20

So that's like +15- you'd need to roll 5 or better to make the DC 20 required and heal 20-29 damage as a full round action.

If you rolled 15 or better in this scenario you'd then get to add knowledge planes (so 15-20 would result in 35-40 healed).

Why is the amount healed varying between 20-29 prior to factoring in whether you beat the DC by 5/10 or more?

Are you confused and thinking that I also asked about that incredible healer feat or am I just not understanding you?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

It's between 20-29 because it uses the check result.

The DC to succeed at all is 20- so it could never be less than 20.

If your check result is 30, then you've beaten the DC by 10 or more and kicked in the Knowledge planes ranks, so it would never heal 30, it would go from 29 to 35.


Nathanael Love wrote:

It's between 20-29 because it uses the check result.

The DC to succeed at all is 20- so it could never be less than 20.

If your check result is 30, then you've beaten the DC by 10 or more and kicked in the Knowledge planes ranks, so it would never heal 30, it would go from 29 to 35.

Why does the check result affect how much healed, apart from determining whether or not you add wisdom and knowledge planes? I can't find where it says that in the heal skill section or in the healer's hands feat but i'm probably being blind... Can you point it out for me?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That's the effect of the Incredible Healer feat that this thread is asking about the interaction of?

Without that the math gets much less good-

It's target's HD, plus your wis as 5 or more, plus Knowledge ranks at 10 or more-

So maxed out (DC 30) at 5th level would be 15 damage healed (5 their HD, 5 Wis mod, 5 skill ranks).


Nathanael Love wrote:

That's the effect of the Incredible Healer feat that this thread is asking about the interaction of?

Without that the math gets much less good-

It's target's HD, plus your wis as 5 or more, plus Knowledge ranks at 10 or more-

So maxed out (DC 30) at 5th level would be 15 damage healed (5 their HD, 5 Wis mod, 5 skill ranks).

Ah, see I thought you might have thought that, which is why I previously doubled checked that you weren't confused and knew I was only asking about unlocks and healer's hands.

Are you factoring in the skill unlocks I asked about ("5 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit points and ability damage as if it had rested for a full day.") into that math?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Without incredible Healing, but with the unlocks-

Resting for a full day gives you double your level rather than your level.

So, you'd get 10, plus 5 wisdom at DC 25, plus 5 for ranks at 30- so 10-20

Still less than just incredible healer.


Nathanael Love wrote:

Without incredible Healing, but with the unlocks-

Resting for a full day gives you double your level rather than your level.

So, you'd get 10, plus 5 wisdom at DC 25, plus 5 for ranks at 30- so 10-20

Still less than just incredible healer.

So the "When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit points and ability damage as if it had rested for a full day." replaces the normal (1 x level) amount healed with treating deadly wounds instead of being additive? I have to say that isn't clear from the wording of it. Shouldn't it say "the target instead recovers" if that was the case?

Effects that trigger when you make a specific action (such as an attack) dont replace any aspect of the original attack unless they specifically say so, they happen in addition to it. So why would the original effect of treating deadly wounds get replaced by the skill unlock unless it said it did?

Perhaps these are questions I should be asking in the rules forum...

Edit:Made a rules post for it, so we don't derail this thread any more than we have already!


Just dug through all my mundane healer stufff.

Quick question while I remember though.. What does the "conduit" portion of that feat mean? Is there some new special thing in that book that needs tobe aware of as well?

----

I wonder how this would interact with that "Trepanation" and "Psychic healing" combo that allowed for prebattle healing that gave Temp HP for 1 hour.

That was a neat combo, but at 1 hour it takes too long.
I need to read back into it.. but it would be quite cool if it still worked with this to be a full round action. That would actually allow you to pop the skill before a fight. Or in the middle of one.


Conduit refers to channeling energy from the planes to help you. In this case a positive energy rich one.


Play an Arminger (free Knowledge: Planes and intimidate) Gloomblade, then use this combo+Flickering Step and the Dimensional Agility line (You're a fighter, you absolutely have feats for it). You're now good healer, can teleport pounce, and make a weapon from nowhere, all with a full BAB, D10 HD, good fort save and good will save for the most important part of will saves (not being subject to "kill your friends" spells).

Primal Bloom makes you a decent magekiller (unlike an AMF they can't walk out of it, and it doesn't disable your magic items) once you get that far. Wanderer's Fortune lets you avoid the annoying reflex save effects and your HD can mitigate the direct damage. You might reach tier 3 with good feat picks, and nobody will ever guess you're a fighter.


Cavall wrote:
Conduit refers to channeling energy from the planes to help you. In this case a positive energy rich one.

ah so its just a fluff thing? Not some specific thing?

or... is this actually like a "channel ability" thing?

Just asking cause I'm curious if this is a "anyone can use it" or if its a "specific classes only"


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Zwordsman wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Conduit refers to channeling energy from the planes to help you. In this case a positive energy rich one.

ah so its just a fluff thing? Not some specific thing?

or... is this actually like a "channel ability" thing?

Just asking cause I'm curious if this is a "anyone can use it" or if its a "specific classes only"

There's a bit of crunch to the Conduit designation: since you're drawing energy from another plane, you can't use it in an AMF, in an area warded against planar travel, or when subject to something like dimensional anchor. No restrictions on who can take the feat, though, nor do you need to go to the plane in question to get it.


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Shiny goodness.
Yup. I need this supplement then.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dot.


Very interesting.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Bloodblocks and healer's gloves are really good for this, giving you a whopping +10 bonus on the checks for next to nothing. Makes hitting that DC 30 benchmark a lot easier.

A healer's satchel also adds 2 x Wisdom modifier of healing effect.

I am so incorporating this into my mad doctor lava gnome construct inventor master alchemist! (Think of a medieval Dr. Wily from Megaman)

A monk or Empyreal bloodline sorcerer would be an AMAZING healer with these feats and items--and it would impact their other abilities hardly at all!

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