Mirror image vs Tremorsense


Rules Questions


How would this scenario play out? Does the mirror image character still get all his images as a miss chance?


tremor sense only tells you what square someone occupies it does nothing to mirror image.


Is Tremorsense an "accurate" sense? Can you distinguish between two people standing near each other with Tremorsense? Mirror Image only duplicates something visible, the clue is even in the name.

IMO Tremorsense allows you to bypass Mirror Image, since you can tell which one is composed of physical substance. (If you cannot see, you would only detect the physical target anyway.)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kimera757 wrote:

Is Tremorsense an "accurate" sense? Can you distinguish between two people standing near each other with Tremorsense? Mirror Image only duplicates something visible, the clue is even in the name.

No, its not an accurate sense. All it gives you is the location (the square.) If tremorsense is your only sense, ie you are blind to the opponent otherwise then you ignore the mirror images and just have the 50% miss chance for total concealment if that is what you meant.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Tremorsense states: can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground.

Which, to me, means there is no 50% miss chance as it is more accurate than just knowing the square. You can attack without worrying about mirror image.


Mirror Image also includes minor sound. Sound is basically vibration, so why would mirror image not work vs tremorsense?


Tremor sense doesn't interact with mirror image. All tremor sense does is identify the square an individual is in it does not pinpoint their exact location, nor does it allow you to target an individual. you either have to rely on vision and take your chances with mirror image, or close your eyes and the associated miss chance.


Grumpus wrote:

Tremorsense states: can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground.

Which, to me, means there is no 50% miss chance as it is more accurate than just knowing the square.

That's what "pinpoint" ought to mean, based on simple English, but unfortunately that's not how PF uses the word.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that "something's there" but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

"Pinpoint an [invisible] creature's location" is used as a synonym for "pinpoint the square that contains an [invisible] creature." It's a strange usage to be sure, but I believe PF is at least consistent about it.

Dark Archive

This comes down to "What exactly does 'pinpoint' mean?"

Pinpoint = knows which square(s) the target occupies, as Blindsense.

-or-

Pinpoint = know exactly where the target is located, as Blindsight.

YMMV table to table the way I see it.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Tremor sense doesn't interact with mirror image. All tremor sense does is identify the square an individual is in it does not pinpoint their exact location, nor does it allow you to target an individual. you either have to rely on vision and take your chances with mirror image, or close your eyes and the associated miss chance.

Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.

Again sound is a vibrations so why does tremorsense not interact with mirror image? Tremorsense specifically states it uses vibration to pinpoint the location of the creature. The sound of the footsteps of the mirror image is enough to be sensed by the creature with tremorsense.

Scarab Sages

From mirror image:

Mirror Image wrote:
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).

"Hearing" footsteps is not seeing the figments. So Tremorsense is not affected by mirror image.

But I'm with Fuzzy-Wuzzy with regard to the miss chance. If all the creature is using is tremorsense, then it knows what square the character is in, but takes the 50% miss chance. Tremorsense automatically pinpoints... so how does something without tremorsense pinpoint? By making a perception check as Fuzzy-Wuzzy quoted. And that still gives the miss chance.

Shadow Lodge

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Tremor sense doesn't interact with mirror image. All tremor sense does is identify the square an individual is in it does not pinpoint their exact location, nor does it allow you to target an individual. you either have to rely on vision and take your chances with mirror image, or close your eyes and the associated miss chance.

Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.

Again sound is a vibrations so why does tremorsense not interact with mirror image? Tremorsense specifically states it uses vibration to pinpoint the location of the creature. The sound of the footsteps of the mirror image is enough to be sensed by the creature with tremorsense.

Tremorsense doesn't work off sound, it works off the tremors/vibrations you create when you walk on the ground: Technically speaking, if you play a set of bagpipes while invisible and levitating, Tremorsense will not detect you because you are not in contact with the ground (everyone knows you are there somewhere, but you can't be pinpointed by Termorsense).

Furthermore, Mirror Image specifically states 'An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).' which seems to indicate the non-visual portions of the figment are fairly insignificant.


Tremorsense doesn't bypass mirror image. It only lets you know what square they're on.
If you do a search you'll see that pinpoint in PF only means you know what square they're in


From what I read of Tremorsense and mirror image, it should work fine. I never heard of that redefinition of "Pinpoint" in Pathfinder so I started to look for any rules specific to the definition of "Pinpoint".

Here is the only thing I found in the Perception skill, and it's not even official:

"Pinpoint Sound: If you exceed the Perception DC to hear a sound by 20, you pinpoint the source of the sound, learning the exact space the sound came from."

Here, I see that pinpoint is used with it's usual definition. I'm still looking for the "Pinpoint means a square".

So, now, we need to figure if "exact space" means an exact location or a 5 foot square.

edit:
- Fuzzy-Wuzzy did found the only place in the rules I could search where pinpoint is defined as a 5 foot square. This rule is for perception checks against invisibility though.

Scarab Sages

Blindsense

Blindsense wrote:
Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

Tremorsense

Tremorsense wrote:
A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.

So, the only other place "pinpoint" is mentioned, it means locating the square. The only other place "sense" is used, it means locating the square. It's reasonable to think that pinpointing a location with a sense means locating the square, not seeing through an illusion.

Blindsight

Blindsight wrote:

Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures that use blindsight.
Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Blindsight gives specific situations which it overcomes. Mirror image gives a specific situation that overcomes the images. Anything that doesn't give those kinds of specifics doesn't overcome those conditions/the images, barring a house rule. An elemental that attacks from underground and can't see its target takes the 50% miss chance whether the target is invisible or not or has mirror images or not.

Note that Blindsight includes sensitivity to vibrations. It is a more (edit)specific powerful version of both Blindsense and Tremorsense.

EDIT: Sorry, one last edit... think about it this way. Tremorsense lets you pinpoint the location of someone touching the ground. You have no idea what that person looks like, if they're in a defensive posture, where they are holding their weapon or shield, or even if they are holding a weapon or shield. So you know where they are to swing at them, but not where to swing to avoid their defenses. Does that make sense? With Blindsight, however, you're Daredevil, and you can basically see everything except color or visual contrast.


If pinpoint meant you could observe them normally you wouldn't have miss chances from concealment. Additionally you could target them with spells. However the rules say you can't target someone with spells and other effects while using an imprecise sense.
Tremorsense is listed as an imprecise sense.


Tremorsense wont allow you to bypass Mirror Image. As others have stated it only allows you to pinpoint (identify the square they occupy) and nothing more. It's an imprecise sense. If you close your eyes and rely on tremor sense alone you still have a 50% miss chance.

Scarab Sages

Can someone point out where the imprecise sense rules are? That sounds like a good thing to know about, but I haven't been able to find them. I found them for Starfinder, but not Pathfinder.


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Ferious Thune wrote:
Can someone point out where the imprecise sense rules are? That sounds like a good thing to know about, but I haven't been able to find them. I found them for Starfinder, but not Pathfinder.

They clarified it in the Ultimate Intrigue book.

Ultimate Intrigue wrote:
Imprecise senses allow a creature to pinpoint the location of another creature, but they don’t allow for the use of targeted effects, and attacks against those creatures are subject to miss chances from concealment. A few examples of imprecise senses are hearing, scent, blindsense, and tremorsense.

The location is just the square they are in. That is why blindsense still has the 50% miss chance vs invisible creatures despite blindsense also saying it pinpoints creatures.

Scarab Sages

Cool. Thanks. It sounds like Ultimate Intrigue was their "fix" all things perception book.

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