So for PFS I have a boon to let me play a Vine Leshy and the Herbalist archetype of Alchemists from Ultimate Wilderness is PFS legal (if you have a Vine Leshy character) so I want to give it a shot.
However a few things are giving me pause.
1) Does the Herbalist get Extra Bombs (in place of Brew Potions) or Skill Focus? The archetype trades out the Bomb class feature (which in other cases in PFS play have meant that those archetypes got Skill Focus in place of Brew Potions) however the Herbalist's replacement specifically allows Extra Bombs to work with it (Seedpods). Hero Labs seems to think it gets Skill Focus but I haven't see any note to that effect in the PFS pages.
2) What Druid spells qualify for Natural Spells? (the Herbalist gets to ADD two Druid Spells to their Alchemist spell list every time they gain a new level of extracts). Do spells like Produce Flame qualify? Finding spells that would be good additions is surprisingly difficult as there is already a lot of overlap between the Alchemist and Druid spells lists. Note the Herbalist uses WIS not INT for all class abilities and spellcasting (and uses Profession Herbalist in place of Craft Alchemy including getting a 1/2 level competence bonus)
3) Without the Bombs class feature it leaves the Herbalist with mutagen related discoveries and general discoveries. What discoveries do you think would be good choices for the Herbalist? I'm trying to decide what approach the Herbalist is best suited for - seems like ranged attacking with seedpods + some other weapons might be doable (however no Throw Anything is an important downside of this approach), Mutagen and melee focus could be doable though small size doesn't help (suggests weapon finesse as the approach and go dex - so some degree of switch hitting) and with the addition of druid spells some focus on extracts seems doable - albeit limited by the alchemist spell list - which is best for self-buffing.
4) are there any herbs that the herbalist should be foraging for along with any fun alchemical items it should be focused on making/using? (without throw anything it doesn't get the usual alchemist advantages with throwing splash weapons)
With a likely WIS > Dex > Con > STR > INT > CHA ability array is there any multiclassing options that might be a good choice? With WIS being high it may open up some options that typically aren't great for an alchemist. Are there any that would be worth the delay in extracts?
side note - it appears that Hero Labs has some errors in their implementation of Herbalist - they give Natural Spells at 5th level which I think should have been 7th level when the alchemist gains 3rd level extracts. (and they show some other archetypes as being legal when they actually replace the same class feature - poison immunity)
Overall the Herbalist looks like it could be a really fun class - Vine Leshy's get a lot of nifty racial abilities (plantspeech, pass without trace etc) and are a small race without a STR penalty and the herbalist gives them a lot of nice debuffing attacks with their seedpods (eventually entangling, blinding, sickening as options)
I'm reluctant to answer questions 1 or 4, due to my lack of familiarity with PFS and the mundane herbs introduced in UW.
2. Looking over the lists, there are a couple of decent - or at least fun/flavorful/thematic - buff and utility spells that the Druid provides the Alchemist. After a quick glance:
1 - Feather Step, Hide from Animals, Longstrider (that duration, tho), Remove Sickness, Speak with Animals, Bristle (w/ Mutagen)
2 - Bone Fists (works well with Feral Mutagen), Lockjaw (again, Feral Mutagen), Tree Shape, Vine Strike, Visualization of the Body
3 - Ape Walk, Meld Into Stone, Vermin Shape
3. Mutagen discoveries seem like a viable route, as well as some of the miscellaneous potion-related ones. I know that potions are harder to come by in PFS since you can't craft them, but Alchemical Allocation is still pretty baller. Enhance Potion is a good way to make them stronger, so you can have a whole utility belt full of spells in potion form, and spit them back out so you can use them over and over via Alchemical Allocation.
One of the important things you mentioned is that Vine Leshy is a small race without a STR Penalty. That, in addition to the Mutagen mental-physical pairings (Str/Int v. Dex/Wis) actually suggest that the Herbalist might be well-suited to melee combat without Weapon Finesse. The damage die will be lower, but you get +1 to attack and AC for size, which is a nice boon. Feral Mutagen is a good choice, and unfortunately Infusion is still a necessary thing to have. Tumor Familiar is *really* good, and can easily be reskinned to a plant growth rather than a fleshy one. Vestigial Arms/Tentacles can help you hold shields while you full attack/use a two-handed weapon, and Preserve Organs -> Mummification are reasonable defensive choices.
Finally, I think I would consider going Str > Wis=Con > Dex > Int=Cha, keeping Wis just high enough to get your buff spells rolling, and picking up a two-handed weapon with a vine tentacle holding a shield.
I don't think the change in key ability score makes multi-classing any better, although it will help shore up your garbage Will Save, which is nice.
Vine strike and Visualization of the Body are not PFS legal alas (and Vine Strike is already on the Alchemist list). The Leshy already gets an inherent ability to turn into a vine (with "results similar to Tree Shape" which as a GM I would interpret as using Tree Shape's specifics if necessary) so not sure that either Tree Shape or Meld into Stone add much. Speak with Animals is potentially useful from time to time - but the vine leshy already gets at will speak with vines which in many cases will be as useful it not more useful (though certainly more situational than speak with animals so that's certainly a good option)
Bristle is definitely a potential option. Vine Leshy's even get an alternative favored class bonus for Alchemists to increase their natural AC from their mutagen by 1/4 per level (though 4 HP or 4 skill ranks may be more generally useful)
Longstrider for the long duration seemed like a good choice. Feather Step is certainly a good choice as wel - and probably what I'll go with (I tend to prefer long duration buffs to save actions in combat)
Not sure that Bone Fists is a legal option (or at least for an Alchemist you don't get to give it to other characters so it is weaker than for other classes - similar to an Alchemist's Haste which only effects the alchemist - which makes Channel Vigor nearly always a better choice for alchemists as a 3rd level spell)
I generally don't like casters with stronger other stats but that's personal preference (though arguably since few alchemist abilities care about DC it is less vital for alchemists to have a high DC) though for the Vine Leshy the DCs for their seedpods (and their number of seedpods) will depend on WIS. But yes a STR build is an option.
For third level I looked at Greater Magic Fang which is another very long duration buff that works well with feral mutagen or with using other transformations (Fey Form I offers a lot of great options though one of the best Muse has natural ranged sonic attacks so unclear if magic fang effects those)
Alchemists don't get shield proficiency nor do they have many two-handed weapon options (only simple weapon proficiency and Vine Leshy's don't get any racial weapon proficiencies) so without multiclassing getting an additional appendage to hold a shield isn't very helpful (and
The change in multi-classing means that classes that are not good choices for an INT based Alchemist might be options - Cleric, Warpriest, Inquisitor, Druid, Monk etc (anything that is WIS based) - they may still not offer enough to justify a dip but it becomes worth exploring especially if you are focused on melee as it may help with filling out feats and/or weapon proficiencies (or AC in the case of a Monk dip)
Oh, yikes! I'm sorry, I didn't realize that Vine Strike and VotB weren't PFS legal, and I definitely didn't see the targets on Bone Fists - I figured it was self-only, but that makes that less great.
Greater Magic Fang is a great option, and one that I thought for whatever reason was already on the Alchemist list.
You don't need shield proficiency to use a mithril buckler without any issue, and while I know that's a semi-cheesy route, it's sort of become a pretty well-accepted thing, much like CLW wand-spamming. There are some 2H options in the spear/longspear (which are also both sort of fitting/thematic for a nature-oriented character), but I also certainly understand if it's not your cup of tea. The Seedpods ability seems quite underwhelming to me, since you can't buff them with discoveries (so no Fast Bombs) and they target regular AC.
Now that you mention it, being WIS-based does give some multiclass options that may be worthwhile.
Warpriest for swift-action self-buffing could be a fine dip, as could Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor (Studied Target, boatload of skill points, smattering of utility spells like the Litanies).
Cleric is a front-loaded class that *could* yield interesting results from the right domain choices - Travel can overcome the Leshy speed issue, for example - and it's not like you need to be terribly worried about Seedpod progression, since they are so lackluster.
Seedpods are a ranged touch attack - so they don't deliver splash damage (so less useful against swarms etc) but they will hit reliably so do deliver damage + debuffs. And entangled or sickened or blinded are pretty useful (and at 2nd level vision limited to 10 feet while not full blindness is still a pretty solid debuff against any opponent that needs to target the party (spell casters or ranged attackers). So I woudln't call it worthless but the inability to get fast bombs or to vary their effect via discoveries is limiting. (and they don't get WIS to damage like a traditional alchemist's bombs so damage will already be lower).
(and it isn't clear but I think bomb admixtures won't work with them either)
Yeah, the mithral buckler is somewhat cheesy - I think it is clear that a vestigal arm could use it - less clear that a tentacle could. In any caee I think I would probably go the natural weapon route primarily (especially tempting given some dips that would get natural claws all the time).
(less clear is if the vine leshy qualifies for Aspect of the Beast since they have a natural shape change)
In PFS, alchemists get the "extra bombs" feat in place of Brew Potion. it's in the additional resources stuff and things.
Also, foraging for specific alchemical ingredient during a scenario is moot, as with the "undefined downtime" between scenarios- you could have gone out to forage the stuff yourself; without forcing the gm to research the ecology in the area your venturing to- just for a few herbs you may be able to use
Yes. I know what most alchemists get. However other archetypes of alchemist that remove bombs have typically gotten Skill Focus instead of Extra Bombs (If they don’t replace brew potion). Herbalist does not replace brew potion but hero labs was showing it as getting skill focus (when configured to make a PFS character). However I haven’t found anything specific on Paizo’s organized play pages that confirm that this is the intention. (It may be an error in hero labs or I may have missed a note about it). In this case while the Herbalist does not have bombs it does get seedpods which specifically say extra bombs will work with them (however it doesn’t have similar language to allow spells or discoveries or any other bomb related feats or traits to work with seedpods).
In a home game I would offer a player their choice of brew potion, extra bombs or skill focus but for PFS play I need to confirm if the archetype gets extra bombs or skill focus.
And no herbalism / herb use isn’t moot in the least. In fact the herbs from Ultimate Wilderness are PFS legal (and do not spoil or expire). And the rules cover how to resolve it (and PFS has specific rules - basically no foraging PCs meeting specific criteria can purchase herbs at a discount. The question is are any of the of specific interest? (As this character is going to have ranks in profession herbalism since it replaces craft alchemy for herbalists.
“The herbalism subsystem is not legal for play; instead a PC with at least one rank in Craft (alchemy) and 1 rank in either Knowledge (nature) or Profession (herbalist) can purchase the herbs in this book at a 10% discount that does not stack with other discounts; if a PC's ranks in these skills are 5 or higher, the discount increases to 15%, and if a PC's ranks in these skills are 10 or higher, the discount increases to 20%”
Since this PC would have a likely rank in profession Herbalist for every level it seems worth seeing if any of the herbs offer useful value (and at which levels). Likewise as an alchemist crafting alchemical items is a rare PFS exception to the general rule against crafting (though PFS simplifies the mechanics a bit) it is worrrh being well aware of the alchemical item options (and useful magical items) and exploring what fits the character theme and offers mechanical benefits.
Rycaut wrote: Yes. I know what most alchemists get. However other archetypes of alchemist that remove bombs have typically gotten Skill Focus instead of Extra Bombs (If they don’t replace brew potion). Herbalist does not replace brew potion but hero labs was showing it as getting skill focus (when configured to make a PFS character). However I haven’t found anything specific on Paizo’s organized play pages that confirm that this is the intention. (It may be an error in hero labs or I may have missed a note about it). In this case while the Herbalist does not have bombs it does get seedpods which specifically say extra bombs will work with them (however it doesn’t have similar language to allow spells or discoveries or any other bomb related feats or traits to work with seedpods). True, in that regard i would say you'd get Skill Focus since the archetype looses out on Bombs. Your Seedpods still apply for Extra Bombs and Weapon Focus, but the Skill Focus replacement trumps the Extra Bombs. as a counterpoint- a Gloom Chymist's "gloom" don't count as bombs for the qualifications, so you'd get Skill Focus.
The Crypt Breaker archetype alters it's bombs, so it gets the Extra Bombs bonus feat.
I'm only saying that Herbalism is moot, as much as a caster's spell component pouch is moot- GMs and players assume that you have the necessary components for potions, extracts, and other alchemical items. Unless you need to acquire some really expensive ingredients, like gemstones, most ingredients are so cheap that you don't need to mark them down on your inventory sheet [unless you want to just put down "ingredient shopping spree XX gp"].
persue herbalism if you wish, players will appreciate you handing out various alchemical items- like Ghost Salts and Alkalai salts
You clearly haven't read the new herbs sections from Ultimate WIlderness - they are mostly very expensive - not stuff that gets subsumed into components pouches - the cheapest herbs in the book are a few gold - but others are 1000+ gp. I've skimmed them but haven't decided yet if any are worth using regularly (a few seem worth having much as you keep around a few key potions or scrolls for emergancies). And yes I'll hand out some alchemical items - but in PFS play you do have to be careful about what you spend resources on (though alchemists do get to do some limited crafting one of the few ways you can do any in PFS play).
And to be clear they are NOT spell components - they are a new form of item (not exactly magical items - closer to alchemical items but not made with craft alchemy). For PFS play you ignore some of their usual rules (about how long they last unused and the rules subsystem for foraging) but the items themselves are legal. There are bunch in Ultimate Wilderness and I think more in one or two other spltbooks.
see http://archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMisc.aspx?Category=Herbs
(and there are a bunch of other new things for alchemists - concoctions from Adventure's Armory 2 offer a small bonus but also a small penalty and there are various food items that would also be thematic for an herbalist to look into use - spices etc)
In terms of the rules for PFS play I haven't seen any documentation about what is the official PFS rules re Skills Focus vs Extra Bombs for this archetype - it is reasonable to conclude either options since the Extra Bombs feat isn't a wasted feat (and typically you go with the PFS rules unless there is a specific exception - I'm posing this question because for some reason Hero Labs coded it as skill focus - but I haven't see anything on the Paizo site to support that (but I easily could have missed it - since the new version of the website it is increasingly easy to miss a key blog post or update)
Rycaut wrote: You clearly haven't read the new herbs sections from Ultimate WIlderness nope, haven't touched that book. heard the shifter was a mess of a build.
last time i looked at dabbling in Alchemy was when i was looking through the Alchemy player companion.
well thankfully the herbs section etc are all now up on Archives of Nethys and the PRD so you can look them over without committing to the whole book. I think the shifter is more interesting than the reviews (and there is a new archetype of it from of all things a splatbook Distant Realms which seems exceptionally good.
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