Hi!
Me and my Master last night stumbled upon the session in a discussion about which creatures I could transform you using spells that require "a piece of the original creature".
I pointed out to him that if the material component does not have a specific cost, it means that its cost is negligible and that it has already been prepared in my spell component pouch.
He disagrees because the specific piece of a creature must be searched and only then is it available to me.
I tried to look online if specific pieces of the creatures had the appropriate costs, the master in the meantime had found these sources:
Harvest Parts
Trophies and Treasures
Now, there are other Polymorph spells that have similar requests to Monstrous Physique, like Alter-Self, which requires applying the same logic to any creature that I must transform; last night I had turned into Deathsnatcher, is a creature with cr 18, which I can also agree that it is not at all easy to find a piece of this creature.
But the more I looked into my list, the more I realized that something was wrong. Monster Physique 2 allows me to transform myself into a Great Old One since it lacks of UNIQUE descriptor.
So, I'm trying to understand something, a concrete direction in the rules in the form of the creatures that I can take, maybe helped by the FAQ or the Hard Cover.
By the rules you're correct, but as a GM I have totally enforced that you must have found a way to obtain a piece of the creature you intend to turn into. So it's not unreasonable.
Yes, the theory is that the material component pouch contains all items without a listed cost, and that eschew material components would remove the requirement for them anyways...but a GM is free to over rule.
So even if you are technically correct, the GM can overrule that. And I probably would, as the shenanigans with shape changing can get pretty ridiculous.
Of course, I personally was looking for references if it had happened in other discussions a situation very similar to mine (oh well, at least for once I tried the Deathsnatcher, very cool eh, but maybe out of scale for my level!).
The master has in the meantime found this wording, which leaves him the space necessary to decide whether the material component actually has a cost:
"Usually you do not need to worry about components, but when you can not use a component for some reason or when a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important."
Therefore, if the master considers that a particular material component in its setting or for arbitration evaluation has an important cost, this material component requires the research and acquisition of it.
Honestly man, if your GM cares this much about the topic I feel like your choices are:
1) Accept their ruling and move along, arguing rarely does any good
2) Find a new game (which isn't always a great option)
If your GM is trying to make rulings based on fractions of a sentence like that, they're going to grasp at whatever they want to justify it rather than going with a more honest answer of "Because I want it that way".
|
By the rules, it's in the spell component pouch. The GM is, of course, allowed to say in their game world some components are harder to come by and are not in the pouch (or in your case, I think an alchemist's lab?). If that's the case, though, then the GM should let you reconsider your character and whether or not you want to run that character in that world.
I think this is for an Investigator? If you were a Wizard or Magus, I'd just say take eschew materials, though it sounds like your GM might rule against that working as well. I don't think there's a way to skip components for an Investigator... except my suggestion from the other thread... the Monstrification staff. :) As a spell trigger item, it does not require the material components, and you can recharge it with enlarge person, so you don't need to be able to make a Monstrous Physique extract your self to use it. See the drawbacks from the other thread (namely needing UMD for an Investigator).
As a practical matter, with a rule dispute even if you are 100% right and your GM is 100% wrong, if he is intransigent you aren't going to win. Sometimes when that is the case, his ruling is even for the best, since just being correct by RAW doesn't necessarily make for the most fun game. That is at least partially why the GM is given a lot of latitude in this respect.
Certainly in this case I absolutely agree that a 'reasonableness' test is appropriate. Exactly where that line is can be discussed, and I think it should change as you go up in levels (what is 'common' for a level 20 character is not the same as what is 'common' for a level 1) but some things being easily available and some being totally out of the question seems fair to me. I also don't think fun would be served by trying to maintain an inventory of creature bits.
In any event, you should discuss this with your GM not in the terms of proving who is 'right' but in how they see it working, why they see it working that way and how they see that as improving the fun of the game. You might preface it with a request that if you aren't happy with how he is going to run the spell you be allowed to trade it out for a different on, that can take some pressure off the discussion since if you feel he is going to totally ruin the spell, you can just take something else instead.
- Whisperer in Darkness
In fact, I agreed with the Master about limiting the type of creature I have to take. In my part, we do not play PFS, so many things are unknown to me.
- Claxon
Of couse I accepted, in our group we leave these topics out of session if we discover something new to learn about Pathfinder. That fraction of sentence allows me to examine the question also from a new perspective; in our group we have all played the role of the game master, so we also help each other to remember certain mechanics. He could also tell me "because I want it that way", we are more interested in knowing how it works or how "usually" works (RAW, RAI and FAQ) and then apply it as we prefer in our sessions.
- Ferious Thune
Correct, it's for the investigator. For the Monstrification Staff, in part, the problem would not arise, on the other hand why needed to set an agreed limit on what to transform if I buy an object that ignores this agreement? I feel comfortable about it, like I can use the Gargoyles (which has four attacks, it flies and according to the master it is quite easy to find as a material component).
As far as the UMD is concerned, it is maxed since the Empiricist allows me to use it classically using INT instead of CHA.
- Dave Justus
The purpose of the post was to find reliable sources that could have escaped me and the master. We have no problem in reviewing our positions and documenting ourselves on the web, also because we try to maintain a clean and healthy roleplay environment avoiding pitfall both from the player and from the master role.
In the past this happened: one of our players in the evil campaign had chosen the Antipaladin, creating an intimidate-build centered. Convinced that Aura of Cowardice worked on the undead or creatures immune to the effects of fear, and through a post by James Jacob (which we use as an official RAI reference) we reported that Aura of Cowardice doesn't work with creatures immune to mind-affecting effects. When he knew this we had no problem to let choosing another build that would please him without drastically changing the character's background.
In that vein Blackaurox, the only rules that technically address it are that material components without a listed value are assumed to be present in the spell component pouch. It's the most concrete rule around the topic.
Monster Physique 2 allows me to transform myself into a Great Old One since it lacks of UNIQUE descriptor.
There is no such thing as a unique descriptor. The rules say you can't turn into an exact copy, so you couldn't (convincingly) pose as their god to followers of Yig, but every creature in existence is a unique creature - either you can't use polymorph effects to turn into anything, at all, or you can turn into a version of every (non-templated et al.) creature there is. There isn't really a middle ground.
In reality, this thread isn't actually about a rule issue, though - there is no "technical solution". You can't forcibly overrule your GM. Talk to your GM about why he wants to limit your choice of polymorph forms, i.e. about how your character fits into the party and campaign.
Edit: The rules on harvesting parts from creatures are from Ultimate Wilderness, i.e. from 2017. The Core Rulebook is from 2009, Ultimate Magic (the source for of Monstrous Physique) from 2011. Does your GM really think an optional system from a book six to eight years later dictates how you can use spells from the early books?
See the drawbacks from the other thread (namely needing UMD for an Investigator).
The biggest drawback is that you really want MP2, not just MP1. Pounce is where the money's at.
In that vein Blackaurox, the only rules that technically address it are that material components without a listed value are assumed to be present in the spell component pouch. It's the most concrete rule around the topic.
Actually, the two alchemical pseudo-caster classes don't use spell component pouches. They use alchemy craftign kits: "An alchemist with an alchemy crafting kit is assumed to have all the material components needed for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those components that have a specific cost."
|
|
- Ferious ThuneCorrect, it's for the investigator. For the Monstrification Staff, in part, the problem would not arise, on the other hand why needed to set an agreed limit on what to transform if I buy an object that ignores this agreement? I feel comfortable about it, like I can use the Gargoyles (which has four attacks, it flies and according to the master it is quite easy to find as a material component).
As far as the UMD is concerned, it is maxed since the Empiricist allows me to use it classically using INT instead of CHA.
That's reasonable. As long as you're at a place where you don't feel like you aren't able to play the character you designed. Gargoyle is the standard go to for a medium creature, or was before more powerful options were released. So if your GM has agreed to allow that, then you should be good. A situation that amounts to "You can't turn into anything unless you specifically in-game acquire a piece of the creature" would be much less easy to deal with.