For Pathfinder 2nd edition I hope you will follow my suggestion and switch the class abilities of the Sorcerer And cleric.
The sorcerer class would work much more dynamically if its class ability were wisdom instead of charisma. A sorcerer having a higher wisdom score would give that player a higher wheel bonus which would be beneficial to a sorcerer player.
The Cleric should use Charisma as its class ability. The way I imagined a cleric is a character that would preach the Commandments of their faith and persuade new initiates to their faith. Charisma would facilitate this much better then wisdom.
I love to have feedback from anyone that agrees or disagrees with my ideas.
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Changing the sorcerer to wisdom would contradict years of lore, not just mechanics. Charisma is the stat for innate spell casting, including sorcerers, use magic device, and racial spell like abilities. Now it will also be tied to Resonance.
PF2 clerics already have a strong incentive to prioritize charisma as a secondary or tertiary stat because the Heal pool is so much better than channel. If I convert one of my APs, the blackened life oracle will convert to a 2e cleric with zero issue.
Charisma is your force of personality. It is a measure of how easily you force your will onto others. Sorcerers command the aether to do their bidding and it obeys.
I do agree on Clerics being Charisma based. What wise individual worships an evil deity that will grant them an eternity in hell upon their death?
Actually, that raises an interesting question. Do evil deities make their faithful suffer damnation and suffer for all eternity? Because it would make more sense if they got to like, help torture other souls for all eternity or whatever.
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Actually, that raises an interesting question. Do evil deities make their faithful suffer damnation and suffer for all eternity? Because it would make more sense if they got to like, help torture other souls for all eternity or whatever.Charisma is your force of personality. It is a measure of how easily you force your will onto others. Sorcerers command the aether to do their bidding and it obeys.
I do agree on Clerics being Charisma based. What wise individual worships an evil deity that will grant them an eternity in hell upon their death?
First, one does not preclude the other
Second, greatly Evil mortals can directly become powerful Evil outsiders upon death. That is the lure that makes even wise Evil mortals keep on worshipping Evil deities
I've always felt:
- Intelligence is the best-fit casting modifier for "learned" or "hermetic" magic where you learn the nature of magic and universe and how to manipulate it, like a wizard. Or to be frank, even the Bard, because music is mathematical and Int is the key score for math, so would be the key score for magic music, though because of the "nature" of the bard it doesn't hurt my feelings if bards are still Cha.
- Wisdom is the best-fit casting modifier for "innate" or "channeled" magic, like a sorcerer or druid or magical monster.
- Charisma is the best-fit casting modifier for "bartered" or "pact" magic, like a cleric or 3.x warlock.
Short form for repeated opinions; Int for skill based magic, Wis for channeled magic, Cha for innate magic
Or in other words; Int for manipulating ambient magic, Wis for directing magic derived from an outside source, Cha for controlling the magic that Wells up from within.
Other people have drawn the parallel that Int is Dextrous magic, Wisdom is having the spiritual Constitution to draw on magic from Beyond, and Charisma is the Strength to direct your own power.
So that was a lot to say the same thing three times. ;)
To a degree, part of the problem is that Wisdom and Charisma have sort of been a mish-mash of different ideas and concepts while also having a degree of overlap. Wisdom affects both your perceptiveness and attention to detail as well as your willpower via the will save. Curiously, however, direct contests of will are handled via opposed charisma checks, which is your force of personality and raw appeal... as well as (apparently) your ability to bend magic to your whim. Given how nebulous they are, it's no wonder people have such broad disagreement over what they mean.
With resonance now existing as a charisma-based mechanic, I can't see Sorcerers changing. There are too many game mechanics revolving around charisma now that thematically tie in with the Sorcerer, and swapping them to wisdom wouldn't make any sense.
As for the Cleric, I have no doubts that the Oracle will be coming very early in PF2's lifespan so we'll have his charisma-based counterpart before you know it.
I think a case can be made for the Cleric either way, but to me the Sorcerer should be Charisma.
...And Halflings should get a Wisdom bonus instead of Charisma. Because yes, I still care.
To a degree, part of the problem is that Wisdom and Charisma have sort of been a mish-mash of different ideas and concepts while also having a degree of overlap. Wisdom affects both your perceptiveness and attention to detail as well as your willpower via the will save. Curiously, however, direct contests of will are handled via opposed charisma checks, which is your force of personality and raw appeal... as well as (apparently) your ability to bend magic to your whim. Given how nebulous they are, it's no wonder people have such broad disagreement over what they mean.
Bit of a tangent, but I've always kind of felt Charisma should determine Will saves. It's alright that Wisdom does (especially for effects that create confusion and fear), but Charisma seemed more appropriate to me.
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Bit of a tangent, but I've always kind of felt Charisma should determine Will saves. It's alright that Wisdom does (especially for effects that create confusion and fear), but Charisma seemed more appropriate to me.To a degree, part of the problem is that Wisdom and Charisma have sort of been a mish-mash of different ideas and concepts while also having a degree of overlap. Wisdom affects both your perceptiveness and attention to detail as well as your willpower via the will save. Curiously, however, direct contests of will are handled via opposed charisma checks, which is your force of personality and raw appeal... as well as (apparently) your ability to bend magic to your whim. Given how nebulous they are, it's no wonder people have such broad disagreement over what they mean.
I see Wisdom as being the ability to see what is real beyond appearances so Will being Wisdom-driven makes great sense to me
Paladin being easy to fool without Divine Grace is problematic IMO, especially with the closer link to deities in PF2
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I see Wisdom as being the ability to see what is real beyond appearances so Will being Wisdom-driven makes great sense to me
I see that as part of the confusing mishmash. Why is seeing through an illusion the same as throwing off a charm spell, which is the same as resisting a slow spell? It's all over the place.
I see Wisdom as being the ability to see what is real beyond appearances so Will being Wisdom-driven makes great sense to meI see that as part of the confusing mishmash. Why is seeing through an illusion the same as throwing off a charm spell, which is the same as resisting a slow spell? It's all over the place.
And in PF2, I think that will properly be a perception check instead of any kind of save.
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I see Wisdom as being the ability to see what is real beyond appearances so Will being Wisdom-driven makes great sense to meI see that as part of the confusing mishmash. Why is seeing through an illusion the same as throwing off a charm spell, which is the same as resisting a slow spell? It's all over the place.
I feel that what I perceive is wrong
I feel that the emotion trying to overwhelm me is false
I feel that I am not slowed whatever impression I get from my nerves and muscles
Wisdom is intuition, ESP
Anything that targets the mind (incurring Will saves) tries to confuse and befuddle it in some way. Wisdom cuts right through the effect to the true heart of the matter
If anything calling these saves Will as in having a strong will or being stubborn is misleading
Could you go a little more into detail about "game mechanics revolving around charisma now that thematically tie in with the Sorcerer"? Outside of resonance (being extra good with magic should mean being extra good charging items), I am drawing a blank. It certainly can't be skills....
Actually, that is the big one: Use Magic Device
You have the ninja ki establishing charisma as an alternative to wisdom (another case of wisdom and charisma overlapping, actually).
You have all the spells that call for opposed charisma checks (planar binding, command undead, charm, and dominate all come to mind) whenever there is an opposed check.
I can keep going, but so much random stuff had been thrown into charisma just so it has something over the years that it's become sort of the random catch-all.
I feel that what I perceive is wrong
I feel that the emotion trying to overwhelm me is false
I feel that I am not slowed whatever impression I get from my nerves and muscles
Wisdom is intuition, ESP
Anything that targets the mind (incurring Will saves) tries to confuse and befuddle it in some way. Wisdom cuts right through the effect to the true heart of the matter
I disagree; only the charm spell attacks the target's mind here. Illusions affect your senses, so identifying the subtle discrepancies that give it away as false is a matter of acuity and perception. Slow is not an illusion or mind-affecting effect; it's a transmutation effect that actually changes the physical properties of the target, and works even on creatures that lack a mind at all.