healing bomb questions


Rules Questions


i have recently made an alchemist and i have a few questions about healing bomb

When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it heal damage instead of dealing it. Creating a healing bomb requires the alchemist to expend an infused extract (APG 31) or potion containing a cure spell. A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb. Creatures in the splash radius are healed for the minimum amount of damage the cure spell is capable of healing. A healing bomb damages undead instead of healing them.

so as most people know by now all healing in the pathfinder universe is actually positive energy DAMAGE. which heals living and harms undead with this in mind my 2 questions are.

1: do i add my int to the positive energy damage my bomb deals?

2: can my positive energy damage bomb crit the main target i have to land an attack on?


vhok wrote:

...

1: do i add my int to the positive energy damage my bomb deals?

2: can my positive energy damage bomb crit the main target i have to land an attack on?

Bombs(Su), APG wrote:
On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage).

bombs doing healing is given by Healing Bomb* in Magical Marketplace pg20. Discoveries marked with an asterisk (*) do not stack—only one such discovery may be applied to a single bomb.

1: the text of Healing Bomb* changes the normal bomb damage to the healing given by the infused extract or healing potion. So that spell will determine the dice and bonus for a final target amount and minimum. The Alchemist does not get the normal bomb damage and bonus. Thus the answer is No to the normal method of adding INT bonus to bombs. 'Cure' spells gain bonuses from Caster Level.{minor clarifying edit}

2: bombs have different mechanics for critical hits. Text from the APG on bombs 1d6+INT damage PLUS 1d6 every odd alchemist level "this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike" would apply to the extra damage from levels but the base damage would recieve the critical doubling. As the damage is swapped out for the extract or healing potion and there's a hit involved it would lead you to say "yes". However the text in Healing Bomb* says, "A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb." which directs the mechanic to imbibing the infusion or potion. That means no critical multiplier.

I am refraining from commenting on how the healing is rationalized within the game as that is not important to the mechanics that are used in this instance.


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Throw Anything (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.

the throw anything feature is where alch get the int to splash weapons(which bombs and healing bombs are) its already included in the bomb description but its is not FROM the bomb itself.


vhok wrote:

Throw Anything (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.

the throw anything feature is where alch get the int to splash weapons(which bombs and healing bombs are) its already included in the bomb description but its is not FROM the bomb itself.

i would second that specifically since it states to also have splash effect.

as for critical. as it is an attack action and the only thing that changes is how to calculate how much damage is healed\done i would say it can be multiplied by a critical. what more since the bomb can be a potion which uses a cure spell to create, it goes from : cure spells , need touch attack to deal damage to undead, can be crit > potion need drinking,can't be crit > bomb touch attack, and here id say the crit is back since it resemble more the 1st method then the 2nd.


using that logic then the extra damage from INT should counteract some of the healing from the target "imbibing" the cure. The Healing Bomb text does not state that the bomb damage is converted to healing or positive energy.
Thinking it is converted to healing is wishful thinking and a GM may grant your wish as overall Healing Bomb as written is rather underpowered. The mechanic would also have to be adjusted as Cure Spells are Nd8+CL{to a maximum bonus}, rather different than a bonus from INT to a [damage type]bomb. I'd go to the Advice or Homebrew forums to get a more powerful write up for Healing Bomb if that's what you want.
IMO my original post is correct. What you are seeing is the healing tax associated with non-divine casters, a in-game bias. Welcome to arcane "casting". Other posters have noted that Healing Bomb is underpowered.

Spectral Hand and Reach Metamagic are more effective and don't require a GM to adjust/edit the rules.


If you're using it against undead, its positive damage. On a splash weapon. It 100% fills the criteria of adding intelligence mod. The heal bomb doesn't need to state it does positive energy, the spells used to power it do. I see no logic on saying it wouldn't harm undead as a splash as that is literally what it says it is and does.

If it's not doing damage it wouldn't, but I admit I allowed it for my game as otherwise it was a little underwhelming, basically doing ranged heals... that could still miss and took 2 different resources away. So yes I allowed the int to be added for heals too. While that's homebrew there has never been a decent real answer so it is more a "season to taste" question for the DM.


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Quote:
so as most people know by now all healing in the pathfinder universe is actually positive energy DAMAGE. which heals living and harms undead with this in mind my 2 questions are.

This is incorrect. Healing cures damage--it is not itself damage. When certain types of healing (e.g., cure light wounds) are used against undead, it deals damage to them instead, but that doesn't make the healing itself damage. What's more, there are types of healing that do not deal damage to undead, such as when a cleric channels energy to heal living creatures.

To the questions:

1. No. If you choose to use healing bomb, you replace the existing bomb effect with that of a cure spell or potion.
2. Yes, since it's an attack roll. It'd be similar to a cleric critically hitting with her touch attack to cast cure light wounds on a skeleton. Note that this would not affect the amount of hit points regained if you healing-bomb'd an ally.


Honestly even though we will never get an official answer this is the kind of question I like. Both readings on the adding Int mod could be perceived in the rules and short of developer insight one should ask their GM.


blahpers wrote:
Quote:
so as most people know by now all healing in the pathfinder universe is actually positive energy DAMAGE. which heals living and harms undead with this in mind my 2 questions are.

This is incorrect. Healing cures damage--it is not itself damage. When certain types of healing (e.g., cure light wounds) are used against undead, it deals damage to them instead, but that doesn't make the healing itself damage. What's more, there are types of healing that do not deal damage to undead, such as when a cleric channels energy to heal living creatures.

Moot point. The healing bomb specifically says the healing hurts the undead.


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Cavall wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Quote:
so as most people know by now all healing in the pathfinder universe is actually positive energy DAMAGE. which heals living and harms undead with this in mind my 2 questions are.

This is incorrect. Healing cures damage--it is not itself damage. When certain types of healing (e.g., cure light wounds) are used against undead, it deals damage to them instead, but that doesn't make the healing itself damage. What's more, there are types of healing that do not deal damage to undead, such as when a cleric channels energy to heal living creatures.

Moot point. The healing bomb specifically says the healing hurts the undead.

It does indeed, but keeping in mind the distinction between "healing that happens to damage something" versus "healing is damage" can help prevent further confusion later on.


blahpers wrote:
Quote:
so as most people know by now all healing in the pathfinder universe is actually positive energy DAMAGE. which heals living and harms undead with this in mind my 2 questions are.

This is incorrect. Healing cures damage--it is not itself damage. When certain types of healing (e.g., cure light wounds) are used against undead, it deals damage to them instead, but that doesn't make the healing itself damage. What's more, there are types of healing that do not deal damage to undead, such as when a cleric channels energy to heal living creatures.

To the questions:

1. No. If you choose to use healing bomb, you replace the existing bomb effect with that of a cure spell or potion.
2. Yes, since it's an attack roll. It'd be similar to a cleric critically hitting with her touch attack to cast cure light wounds on a skeleton. Note that this would not affect the amount of hit points regained if you healing-bomb'd an ally.

you are very incorrect all healing is positive energy damage which heals living and harms undead. same as negative energy damage heals undead and harms living.

and yes healing spells deal positive energy damage. thats why they can harm undead. its also why they heal living. because positive energy damage heals living.

think of it like a monster that has cold absorption. you hit it with a cone of cold and it will heal. your spell deals damage but healed him. thats positive energy on living creatures.


Initially, healing bomb may not seem like much, but it really does turn out to be quite the powerhouse, even without +Int to healing (the side of the argument that our group falls on).

If you have an interest in maximizing healing bomb, I recommend building an alchemist that worships Cayden Cailean and enters the Brewkeeper Prestige Class.

At 11th level, a Brewkeeper alchemist can toss out empowered, maximized cure critical wounds bombs that heal the central target for 42+(half of 4d8+10) and splash heal for 49 (the minimum amount).

Even in less extreme cases, however, the healing still gets quite impressive, rivaling channel energy, and squeezing extra oomph out of every cure potion the party comes across.


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vhok wrote:


you are very incorrect all healing is positive energy damage which heals living and harms undead. same as negative energy damage heals undead and harms living.

So, when I use treat deadly wounds to heal someone it's considered positive energy? So, I can use the heal skill to directly damage undead by wrapping bandages on it's hand?

Not all healing is positive energy. Healing is healing and some of it is positive energy and some of that positive energy also harms undead.

Infernal healing doesn't use positive energy, if anything it uses negative energy to heal living creatures, but that's only if you assume holy = positive energy and unholy = negative energy, which I don't believe is true either.

Also, as pointed out, when a good aligned cleric channels to heal living creatures that positive energy they are throwing around does nothing against undead. Conversely, if they channel to harm undead that positive energy doesn't heal their allies.


LordKailas wrote:
vhok wrote:


you are very incorrect all healing is positive energy damage which heals living and harms undead. same as negative energy damage heals undead and harms living.

So, when I use treat deadly wounds to heal someone it's considered positive energy? So, I can use the heal skill to directly damage undead by wrapping bandages on it's hand?

Not all healing is positive energy. Healing is healing and some of it is positive energy and some of that positive energy also harms undead.

Infernal healing doesn't use positive energy, if anything it uses negative energy to heal living creatures, but that's only if you assume holy = positive energy and unholy = negative energy, which I don't believe is true either.

Also, as pointed out, when a good aligned cleric channels to heal living creatures that positive energy they are throwing around does nothing against undead. Conversely, if they channel to harm undead that positive energy doesn't heal their allies.

ok if you wanna be a douche about it. obviously i'm talking about magical healing your bandage example has no bearing on this situation as my bomb is clearly magic and not wrapping someone up and laying them down in a bed to heal.

just because they didnt want channel to be super OP they made it 4 seperate things instead of just 2 which does make it more confusing

infernal healing gives fast heal so yes its positive energy.

pos and neg energy


This question was asked a while back (last year? edit: Yep exactly last year), if not more times as well. (edit: yep, that too, I'm sure there's more but those were the 2 I encountered) The discovery is written very poorly.

It's very ambiguous overall in many ways, but if you stick to the RAW, at least for the 2 questions you're asking the answers are there.

What I will say is that from the RAW, healing is not defined as negative damage, and even if it was, adding damage to negative damage just reduces the negative damage. So either way you throw it _officially_ it seems like it wouldn't get affected by int bonus (at least in any beneficial way). It also specifically says that it's as if the target drank the extract/potion (and Throw Anything doesn't apply to drinking stuff).

There's no official explanation for healing to critical hit, but against undead there's not really any reason that it would not critical (aside from someone ruling that it's a spell, which it isn't)

That said, regarding any situation, GMs should look at something and ask if it's reasonable, logical, consistent and balanced. Some people might consider it reasonable, but personally I'd say "no". Why? because healing potentially up to 9 (or more) creatures for 5 + Int (CL 5 CLW extract) HP seems a bit too strong, even though it's a bit niche to have so many targets. Using a CLW extract is already really effective for healing an entire party, since for a party of 4 it would heal for 3 times the amount. Adding Int mod to that would make it even stronger at about 4-6x effectiveness (depending on Int bonus). For potions it's kind of a rip-off though, so I might want to say that it would apply Int mod for potions but not extracts (just for balance's sake)


vhok wrote:

ok if you wanna be a douche about it. obviously i'm talking about magical healing your bandage example has no bearing on this situation as my bomb is clearly magic and not wrapping someone up and laying them down in a bed to heal.

just because they didnt want channel to be super OP they made it 4 seperate things instead of just 2 which does make it more confusing

infernal healing gives fast heal so yes its positive energy.

pos and neg energy

Infernal healing grants fast healing to any creature regardless how it interacts with positive or negative energy. The material component for the spell is unholy water. So, no its not positive energy.

Even looking at the post you linked to confirms this.

Quote:
Positive energy often heals living creatures, though not always (for instance channeled positive energy to harm undead or the life blast spell). It often harms undead creatures, though not always (for instance channeled positive energy to heal living creatures). Individual effects will tell you whether they heal living (if they mention healing without specifying what they heal, they always mean only living creatures), harm undead, or both. Positive energy never heals or harms creatures or objects that are neither living nor undead (such as constructs), and it never directly damages the living or heals undead, barring some special effect that explicitly changes this like a dhampir’s negative energy affinity.


I see nothing in there that refers to infernal healing as being the exception.

As that is the minority the burden of proof would be to prove they are the exception, rather than bolding sections that say an exception can exist. I dont think the listed examples of exceptions come close to supporting your statement.


Cavall wrote:

I see nothing in there that refers to infernal healing as being the exception.

As that is the minority the burden of proof would be to prove they are the exception, rather than bolding sections that say an exception can exist. I dont think the listed examples of exceptions come close to supporting your statement.

The original statement was that all healing is positive energy. What I quoted states that this isn't true because there are exceptions. So already we know not all healing is positive energy. This means that we can't assume that a particular healing spell is positive energy unless it is explicitly stated as such.

Infernal healing does not explicitly state that it is healing due to positive energy. What's more it doesn't state that it acts like positive energy at all. So I can use it to heal a creature regardless of how the creature interacts with positive energy.


The original statement was about healing bombs, which heal and damage undead. That's positive energy. Regardless of if infernal healing does or does not, this clearly does.

So let's keep it on track rather than being bogged down in things that have nothing to do with this bomb.


Gulthor wrote:

Initially, healing bomb may not seem like much, but it really does turn out to be quite the powerhouse, even without +Int to healing (the side of the argument that our group falls on).

If you have an interest in maximizing healing bomb, I recommend building an alchemist that worships Cayden Cailean and enters the Brewkeeper Prestige Class.

At 11th level, a Brewkeeper alchemist can toss out empowered, maximized cure critical wounds bombs that heal the central target for 42+(half of 4d8+10) and splash heal for 49 (the minimum amount).

Even in less extreme cases, however, the healing still gets quite impressive, rivaling channel energy, and squeezing extra oomph out of every cure potion the party comes across.

the brewmaster thingy won't really work on healing bombs as the ability to add metamagic to his extracts\droughts as a swift action only work when he drinks them (or later on give it to others to drink) but the bomb expand the extract without anyone drinking it so you don't get to use a swift action as it's never drank.

also that prc is written badly. in the harmful homebrew it state that at levels 6 and 9 you can add one more effect up to 3 at level 9. then you get a different class ability that let you add a 2nd effect at level 5 and a third at level 10. i think whoever wrote it got it mixed , he forgot he already set it to levels 3,6,9 and then added it to 5 and 10. (as the first state you can add up to 3 it stand that you can't use both and stack 6 effects, anyway all abilities also state that you pay each effect cost fully.


Brewkeeper wrote:
Distilled Spells (Su): A brewkeeper can spend 1 minute distilling an extract or spell she has prepared or an unused spell slot into a draught.
Brewkeeper wrote:
Helpful Homebrew (Su): At 2nd level and every 2 class levels thereafter, a brewkeeper can select one metamagic feat from the list in the following paragraph. She can spend points from her brew reservoir as a swift action to add a metamagic effect to a spell as she casts it, an extract as she drinks it, or a draught as she creates it.

I'll agree with the inconsistency on Brew Specialization (which is a pretty minor inconsistency given some of the truly awful rules text that sometimes makes it through editing), and it seems clear that it's just meant for Helpful Homebrews, as Harmful Homebrews have their own wording.

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