Rondolero Swashbuckler-Unchained Rogue

[Nathanael Love]

Working a PFS build to dual wield Falcatas.

With one level dip in Rondolero Swashbuckler, then three levels in Unchained Rogue would I be able to finesse and therefore dex to damage while dual wielding Falcatas?

The plan is to switch to fighter to rake in the feats after the 4 levels.

[Ferious Thune]

You may run into table variation, but I believe you would be able to use it with Unchained Rogue's abilities. However, it would not count as a light weapon, so you would still take the penalty for wielding a one-handed weapon in your off hand.

[Nathanael Love]

Ferious Thune wrote:

You may run into table variation, but I believe you would be able to use it with Unchained Rogue's abilities. However, it would not count as a light weapon, so you would still take the penalty for wielding a one-handed weapon in your off hand.

Yeah, planning on that so it's - 4 -4 instead of -2 -2, but with balanced weapons from Adventurer's Armory 2 and then the effortless dual wielding I can get it down to -2 -2.

[Ferious Thune]

The Dual-Balanced weapon modification? Yeah, that looks like it would work. Keep in mind you’ll need to take an extra feat. Modified Weapon Proficiency. But if you’re going Fighter after 4th, you’ll have plenty of feats.

EDIT: Also, are you going Weapon Master Fighter? Otherwise the earliest you could get Effortless Dual Wielding is 9th Level. Weapon Master would, I think, let you do it at 7th.

[Nathanael Love]

Yeah, and you know what. . . I just found another path there without the Swashbuckler level- Fighter's Finesse Advanced Weapon Training option.

So I guess that just makes the first 7 levels 3 Unchained Rogue, 4 Weapon Master Fighter and I get Fighter's Finesse at 4th level Fighter and then Effortless Dual Wield at 6th level Fighter.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Neat idea, but I have flagged it to be moved to the correct forum ^^ Have fun with that character, I currently have a magus who is doing very similar things.

[Ferious Thune]

That ends up being a kind of brutal build. You can’t finesse the sword until you have fighter’s finesse, so either you’re using something else for four levels, or you’re using your strength bonus to hit. You also can’t take your third level of urogue until you can finesse the falcata, otherwise you can’t select it for Dex to Damage.

Is all you’re wanting out of rogue Dex to Damage? Have your looked at Trained Grace? It doubles you weapon training bonus to Damage when you use dex to-hit and str to damage. That would let you go full weapon master. Say you start with a 17 Dex and 16 str. You can take Power Attack. For your first four levels you just use STR for both hit and damage. At 4th fighter’s finesse, bump Dex to 18. At 6th Trained Grace. Now you’re using Dex to hit, str to Damage and effecttively getting +4 from each.

At 7th, your weapon training goes to +2, so your bonus to Damage goes to +4 from Weapon training, +3 from str.

At 8th take Effortless Dual wielding.

As soon as you can afford them, buy gloves of dueling to add +2 to your weapon training bonus, which becomes +4 to Damage.

Even if you only boost Dex with a belt, you’re still keeping up in damage from the extra weapon training bonus. Not to mention you can Power Attack if you aren’t having trouble hitting something. Plus you’re full BAB the whole way. No sneak attack, but that didn’t seem to be the point of the build to begin with. Fewer skill points for sure, and you’re likely dumping charisma or just starting with a 14 STR instead of 16. Something like:

Half-orc for proficiency

Str 14 Dex 17 (15+2) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 10

Str 15 Dex 17 (15+2) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 10

Str 16 Dex 17 (15+2) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8

EDIT: One more array

Str 14 Dex 18 (16+2) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10

[Ferious Thune]

Something like:

Str 16 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8

1) Power Attack
B1) Weapon Focus
B1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency Falcata (half-orc)
2) Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Double Slice
4) Fighter’s Finesse
5) Weapon Specialization
6) Trained Grace
7) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8) Effortless Dual Wielding
9) Improved Critical
10) Greater Weapon Focus
11) Greater TWF (or Two-Weapon Rend)

[Nathanael Love]

Right now I was looking at:

str 10 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 9 Cha 9

Race : Tengu for Sword trained and +2 dex

UC Rogue 1- weapon finesse, two weapon fighting
UC Rogue 2- rogue talent weapon training (weapon focus)
weapon master 1- combat expertise, two weapon feint
Weapon Master 2- modified weapon proficiency
Weapon master 3- two weapon defense
weapon master 4- Fighter's finesse
Unchained Rogue 3- (dex to damage) weapon specialization

It comes on a little slow- I don't get Dex to hit until 6 and dex to damage until 7, but it gets big boosts at those levels.

[Ferious Thune]

Looks pretty good in terms of where it ends up.

It's going to be a rough 5 levels before you get Dex to-hit. Especially if you actually do two-weapon fight anytime before then. I played a TWF, two-weapon feint fighting fan ninja before 1st level rebuilds were allowed, and I pushed Weapon Finesse to 2nd so I could take it with a Ninja Trick and manage to get two-weapon feint at 3rd. 1st level was really bad. Even avoiding using TWF, I had +0 to-hit, +1 once I bought a masterwork fan.

At 5th level, you'll be +7 with a +1 weapon, +3 when TWF.

You get good at 6th, and really good at 7th. Got any GM credit to skip a few levels?

I would consider Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 9th.

[Nathanael Love]

Yeah, I organize and GM a weekly game and sadly have more GM credit than player credit, so I expect I'd only play it a few times before hitting 6th level at all.

With two weapon fighting I go

1st: -4
2nd: -2
3d: -1
4th: +1
5th: +3 (weapon training comes online!)
6th: +9

[Ferious Thune]

Sounds good. I hope you have fun with the build!

[Two-Gun Sam]

Silly question, but if you use SMALL Falcatas (sized for a Gnome say), wouldn't they be light weapons? And you would take a -2 to hit for using a weapon not the correct size...

But they would be "light" Falcatas...

I have been looking at doing something like this with small Bastard Swords... A light weapon that does 1d8 (crit 19x2)...

[Kyrand]

Two-Gun Sam wrote:

Silly question, but if you use SMALL Falcatas (sized for a Gnome say), wouldn't they be light weapons? And you would take a -2 to hit for using a weapon not the correct size...

But they would be "light" Falcatas...

I have been looking at doing something like this with small Bastard Swords... A light weapon that does 1d8 (crit 19x2)...

Only the off-hand weapon needs to be small, as well, so you could keep full damage on the main hand with only a -2, and one size smaller damage on the off-hand at a -4 (extra -2 for size).

[Nefreet]

Two-Gun Sam wrote:

Silly question, but if you use SMALL Falcatas (sized for a Gnome say), wouldn't they be light weapons? And you would take a -2 to hit for using a weapon not the correct size...

But they would be "light" Falcatas...

I have been looking at doing something like this with small Bastard Swords... A light weapon that does 1d8 (crit 19x2)...

Size doesn't change type. A small Falcata is still a one-handed weapon, not light. If a medium-sized character tried to wield one, they couldn't use Weapon Finesse with it because it's inappropriately sized.

[Nathanael Love]

Yeah, I knew there was a reason that using wrong sized ones didn't work.

Also, apparently my Venture Agent tag just got added, so hooray for that!

[Two-Gun Sam]

From the PRD:
(http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/equipment.html#weapon-size )
"Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

"A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

"Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all."

bolding mine. If a Small one-handed weapon is altered by one step when used by a Medium wielder... are we saying it is wielded as a two-handed weapon? I wouldn't think so. So, if "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed" - then it seems to me that a Medium wielder would wield a Small one-handed weapon as a light weapon. Or does this rule actually say something else? If it is still wielded as the same size category ... then a Medium wielder using a tiny Greatsword would still get a 1.5 times Strength bonus on damage? And a Huge dagger would still be Finesse-able, even though a Medium PC would have to use two hands to use it?

[Starglim]

Nefreet wrote:

Two-Gun Sam wrote:

Silly question, but if you use SMALL Falcatas (sized for a Gnome say), wouldn't they be light weapons? And you would take a -2 to hit for using a weapon not the correct size...

But they would be "light" Falcatas...

I have been looking at doing something like this with small Bastard Swords... A light weapon that does 1d8 (crit 19x2)...

Size doesn't change type. A small Falcata is still a one-handed weapon, not light. If a medium-sized character tried to wield one, they couldn't use Weapon Finesse with it because it's inappropriately sized.

They couldn't use Weapon Finesse with it, because Weapon Finesse requires a weapon made for a creature of your size category.

[Nefreet]

Tomato, tomato?