Backstory:
Actual Question: Are kineticist blasts [that have both a physical and energy type listed] subject to both damage reduction AND energy resistance?
Opinion Question:
Yes. The half that is physical damage is subject to Damage Reduction (and counts as magic), and the energy half is subject to appropriate energy resistance or immunity.
If I were to change it, I'd say that instead of half and half damage, make the largest reduction of damage apply to the blast. This will make kineticists more powerful than they're meant to be.
Think so? My kineticist seems remarkably underpowered compared to the rest of the group. He can't compete in damage or accuracy, he has worse defenses, and his utility is on par with a common fighter. Is the player maybe doing something wrong? Are there some must have items or feats out there of which neither he nor I are aware?
Edit: It seems there was a FAQ that got added later that changed that rule. But they never updated the rules text to show it.
I'm actually not sure why kinetic blasts are even supposed to be subject to damage reduction, though apparently they are intended to be.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Nothing in the kineticist rules overrides this statement, though abilities like Rare-Metal Infusion would imply that they are meant to not ignore damage reduction.
You have worse acc than the fighter, but he needs to hit with iteratives. Use the common DPR math to compare your single hit per turn hitting 80% of the time vs him missing with his second hit 80% of the time and his third and fourth even less often, you'll get the idea. On paper kineticist doesn't look impressive, but in a campaign they're easy to build so they have great DPR, multiple control options, insane dpr with melee infusions, and more utility than most non-casters could ever hope for.
I'm not talking on paper, though. Well, technically, I suppose so, since it is a pen and paper game. But I'm talking about our session, where he was performing consistently worse in both damage and accuracy than the other characters (magus and brawler).
I'm looking at the brawler's character sheet right now, and he seems to have +14/+12/+7/+7, 1d8+14, compared to the kineticist's +10, 10d6 * 1.5 +13. I don't have the magus's character sheet offhand, but he's a harder comparison since he's bursty per day.
Why are your theoretical 80%s and such so vastly different from my actual values?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You have worse acc than the fighter, but he needs to hit with iteratives. Use the common DPR math to compare your single hit per turn hitting 80% of the time vs him missing with his second hit 80% of the time and his third and fourth even less often, you'll get the idea. On paper kineticist doesn't look impressive, but in a campaign they're easy to build so they have great DPR, multiple control options, insane dpr with melee infusions, and more utility than most non-casters could ever hope for.I'm not talking on paper, though. Well, technically, I suppose so, since it is a pen and paper game. But I'm talking about our session, where he was performing consistently worse in both damage and accuracy than the other characters (magus and brawler).
I'm looking at the brawler's character sheet right now, and he seems to have +14/+12/+7/+7, 1d8+14, compared to the kineticist's +10, 10d6 * 1.5 +13. I don't have the magus's character sheet offhand, but he's a harder comparison since he's bursty per day.
Why are your theoretical 80%s and such so vastly different from my actual values?
So if this is a physical composite blast, it should do physical damage, so at level 9 (it seems based on the number of d6? That or level 10) we're looking at (10d6+16+Con modifier)*1.5. We'll go with 18 Con, which is very likely a significant lowball. The accuracy can't be right for level 10 unless the kineticist has 10 Dexterity, which seems very unlikely, or has 14 Dex (still seems too low) and is using Deadly Aim, which would add 4 more damage. I will grant that the brawler's +14 also seems a little bit low (and the +14/+12 difference can't be from Furious Focus at level 9, since that would be a +3 difference). Accuracy aside, the damage is going to be 83 for the kineticist, whereas the brawler is 18.5 and can't pull that off even with all four hits...however, this seems to be an empowered composite, which is very hard for a level 9 (or 10) kineticist to pull off.
|
The previous explanation about DR and Energy resistance is not necessarily correct. It depends a great deal upon which actual elements are in play.
Note that a Kinetic Blast (even in it's melee Blade/Whip form) is a Spell Like Ability. As such it penetrates DR as if it were not there, but bounces off of Spell Resistance. Just like a spell.
Example 1: Fire or Lightning energy attacks
Not only do these attacks have to penetrate SR, fire or lightning resistance applies if the attack gets through.
Example 2: Earth physical attack
An Earth attack scoops up nearby earth and throws it the target. The SPA doesn't touch the target, it figuratively picks up a rock and throws it. So no SR, but DR applies.
Example 3: Water Physical attack
I believe that this attack creates the water, so despite being a physical attack the water is magically charged and bounces off of SR (and passes right through DR). Unlike an Earth attack which requires rock/earth nearby, you can use it anywhere.
I am unfamiliar with any elements not listed in Occult Adventures, but generally they will behave like the four listed above.
Can a composite blast be subject to two different immunities? Yes, as stated above. The physical half can be weakened by DR, and the energy part can be blocked by energy resistance. AND one or both can be blocked by SR. (I gave the examples above to highlight the possability of the Steam - Water/Fire composite blast, which is not blocked by DR. Other odd combinations are possible.) Outsider's are a severe problem for the Kineticist class, as they tend to combine DR, SR and ER. Please be aware of this and be sparing in your use of them. Also suggest possible ways around this to your player. Such as Bane weapons/ammo, or the Spell Penetration feats.
A 'pure' composite blast (fire/fire or earth/earth) has the advantage of not being double diluted, and will generally overpower DR or energy resistance the same way fighters/sorcerers do; by piling on enough damage to get past DR/ER 10.
SR will continue to be a problem for Kineticists, even as it is for spell casters. Except worse, as there are options available to increase the spell penetration of a cast spell that don't apply to a SPA/kinetic blast.
dotted
Also, I just looked at OA last night. There are a few ways to reduce the Energy Resistance against your energy attacks, at least. SR is sadly never going to be your friend.
The party is all level 10. I will admit that the kineticist isn't what most would consider ideally optimized, but it's not abysmal.
So if this is a physical composite blast, it should do physical damage, so at level 9 (it seems based on the number of d6? That or level 10) we're looking at (10d6+16+Con modifier)*1.5. We'll go with 18 Con, which is very likely a significant lowball. The accuracy can't be right for level 10 unless the kineticist has 10 Dexterity, which seems very unlikely, or has 14 Dex (still seems too low) and is using Deadly Aim, which would add 4 more damage. I will grant that the brawler's +14 also seems a little bit low (and the +14/+12 difference can't be from Furious Focus at level 9, since that would be a +3 difference). Accuracy aside, the damage is going to be 83 for the kineticist, whereas the brawler is 18.5 and can't pull that off even with all four hits...however, this seems to be an empowered composite, which is very hard for a level 9 (or 10) kineticist to pull off.
Physical. It's the ice blast.
I was under the impression that Empower had been clarified as of this edition to only affect the values of the spell that are both variable and numeric, not their sum. I recall this being a sticking point before. Is this no longer the case? I just googled the FAQ, and it looks like there's a part that's crossed out. So is *everything* now increased with Empower? If so, this greatly increases his damage output, so that helps. This can't be right, though, can it? It makes maximize terrible. For the number I stated, 10d6+13, the old empower value is 65.5 on average, the new empower value is 72 on average, and the maximize value is 73 on average.
The kineticist has 14 dex and 16 con.
Isn't an empowered composite guaranteed for a level 10 character? The kineticist has infusion specialization of 2, so anytime he spends a move action gathering energy, that reduces the total burn by 3 points. Empower is 1 point and the composite blast is 2 points. What am I doing wrong?
Are you hitting normal or touch? Including the bonuses to hit from your burn in overflow?
Ah ha! As mentioned before, I am entirely unfamiliar with this class. I'd never even heard of it before the player asked to use it. The player must have forgotten about this ability. This helps a LOT, and would seem to account for the discrepancy.
Note that a Kinetic Blast (even in it's melee Blade/Whip form) is a Spell Like Ability. As such it penetrates DR as if it were not there, but bounces off of Spell Resistance. Just like a spell.
OK, this is interesting and flies counter what others have been saying. I suppose the line in question is this:
Does this mean "as a magic weapon" or "as a spell or spell like ability"? This seems controversial. Do we have a solid ruling?
The damage reduction section states:
But the FAQ on the same page states:
Although the definition of damage reduction says “The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even non-magical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities,” that’s actually just referring to damage that isn’t specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn’t protect against “typeless damage” from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
By this logic, DR would seem to apply to the Kineticist's attack, right?
As for the rest of your examples, they seem to be logically-fueled, rather than RAW-supported. While I generally agree with the idea, it poses problems of its own. It seems that it would be better to simply use the RAW rather than applying an addition filter of spell-based logic. By your logic, a geokineticist is useless on a ship, in the water, in the air, etc. This seems to be a strange requirement for the class. The telekinetic blast goes into great detail about the objects it throws, but earth blast does not. By your logic, should not magically enchanted earth then do bonus damage? Are we stating that it's RAW that earth blast requires nearby earth to use?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The party is all level 10. I will admit that the kineticist isn't what most would consider ideally optimized, but it's not abysmal.
The kineticist has 14 dex and 16 con.
These stats are actually remarkably low for a level 10 kineticist, and are pretty much the beginning and end of why the character is having trouble. With +2 to each from overflow and assuming they received the level 4 and 8 stat raises and one of them has a +2 stat item (a lowball for level 10), that means he started with something like 13 in both of them. That's like if a level 10 wizard had 14 Int or like the brawler had 14 Strength; you're not going to connect much. An optimized kineticist could have as much as 28 Dex. Now you don't need that much, but something like an 18 and a 20 by this level should be very easy to reach, even with very low starting stats.
Isn't an empowered composite guaranteed for a level 10 character? The kineticist has infusion specialization of 2, so anytime he spends a move action gathering energy, that reduces the total burn by 3 points. Empower is 1 point and the composite blast is 2 points. What am I doing...
Infusion specialization only decreases infusions. However, when facing off against something that's going to double ding like a demon, losing the composite isn't going to change as much. It's worth noting that at the very next level (level 11), supercharge shows up, which makes this combo a mere 1 burn to pull off, so it's not like she's not close to this right now.
Infusion Specialization applies to neither metakinesis nor composite blasts. The standard full round action for a level 10 kineticist should be an empowered simple blast.
The kineticist does not need a supply of their element, it's pulled from the appropriate elemental plane.
Physical attacks ignore SR. They are affected by any DR except DR/magic.
> Spell resistance doesn’t apply against physical blasts.
Having 14 Dec and 16 Con at level 10 is...a bit low. That seems like he'd have had to start with 14 Dex/Con at level 1, and also doesn't have a belt of Dec or Con. It'd be hard to make do with stats that low even with elemental overflow (which you should check if he's applying the stat bonuses from that, as well).
Did your kineticist forgot to buy any +stat items? That's an easy fix there. Did they remember the +1 stat every 4th level? Did they remember to add their racial bonuses at creation?
For reference on the stats, I pulled up my (conveniently level 10, but with level 9 WBL because the campaign was stingy) electric/water kineticist and they have 16 Dex, 22 Con during overflow. Dex is relatively low because I was expecting to be target touch AC to land Deafening or Magnetic infusions or to just play support with Celerity and Kinetic Cover. Also, Weapon focus (blast) is useful.
I was not aware that Infusion Specialization did not apply to his metmagic stuff. I thought those were considered infusions. We'll make the according adjustments. It looks like his default is going to be an empowered water blast.
The kineticist does not have any stat items. He opted for a different route with some of his gear, purchasing the more expensive items up front in the expectation that it would be easier to get the more common items later (the character just started). I know this lowers the stats a bit, but I was mentally accounting for that, and the character's performance on the previous session isn't entirely explained by a simple loss of +2 to dex and con. It is, however, solved by the huge loss of Elemental Overflow, so I'm pretty happy, now, with where he's at. I'm going to speak with him and see if he's aware of the ability.
Once he has two +2 stat items, is using the elemental overflow for another +2 to dex and con and +3 attack/damage, that's a total of +5 attack and +8 damage, which puts him right in line with where I was expecting him to be. So, yes, apparently the memo of the day is "Use elemental overflow" xD
Thanks for the help, everyone. :)
Once he has two +2 stat items, is using the elemental overflow for another +2 to dex and con and +3 attack/damage, that's a total of +5 attack and +8 damage, which puts him right in line with where I was expecting him to be. So, yes, apparently the memo of the day is "Use elemental overflow" xDThanks for the help, everyone. :)
That +5 covers a little over the negative for shooting throw an ally's square, and all it will cost him is a 30 HP reduction for the day. What he needs is a way to reduce his size, either the bat or fox shape feats or grab the song bird of many colors for a quick and easy option. Kineticist damage not being reduced by size is about the only good thing the class has going for it.
Good thing he didn't go aether or his damage would be half that without two available targets and tacking on a saving throw.
Boy that's pessimistic. That 30 how reduction also comes with bonus defenses like DR, or AC, or miss chance against projectiles for someone who's never in melee, or a refillable shield with immunity to on hit effects, bonuses to fort and reflex saves, increased accuracy and damage. So I'd think the class gets quite a lot for that 30 hp from their D8 hit die and absurd con mod to hp.
And aether gets empower too, or a composite that hits touch AC with no resistance. On top of that, snaking allows you to not shoot through any particular square if you don't want to so no -5 or miss chance if you want to go that route. While going small size with no damage penalties is great, it's hardly the only great thing the class does.
In the case of this water elementalist, he gets an armor equivalent to medium armor or a shield spell. He can spend 20 of the lost hp boosting the shield to +6, that is pretty good. Earth's is also alright. Then you have fire which provides no defense, aether gives you hp that can't be healed through spells or potions, air gives you physical ranged miss chance, void is niche as heck and wood gives extremely hp expensive natural armor. It's not a good spread there.
Yes, you can spend 2 burn snaking spells, another 20 hp. 0 if you don't move(there's a feat that gives you half your move, I know) and don't use metakinesis. That's half of a 10th level kineticist's infusions spent.
Aether's 2 composite blasts do damage as a normal blast, not a composite blast. If you don't do foe throw or disintegrate you're lagging behind and both add a save on top of the attack roll. Disintegrate is also expensive.
The only real solution to shoring up kineticist problems is turning into a tiny or smaller flying creature. it makes that ice armor really cool, removes the need for snaking since you can drop shots from above, and gives you a substantial to hit boost without a loss of damage. It can also save you the cost normally spent on being able to fly and allow you to fly while using the mobile gathering feat rather than dropping like a stone since you can't spend the move action to use your variant of greater flame jet when you've spent your move action on mobile gathering.
I'm telling you, the bat shape feat really brings the class together in a way that feels almost mandatory.
i have a level 7 earyth kineticist, who functions quite well, usually hits as the hardest in the group, and almost never uses more than 4 burn a scenario to increase his DR at the start.... So not sure what half of you are talking about? And this is a PFS legal char.
I have little trouble hitting (worst i have seen required me to roll an 10, and I am easily overpowering DR)
Prehensile just means capable of grasping. A mouth can certainly grasp things.
Your head wouldn't be the appendage. Humans have really flat faces, so it's hard to think of our mouths as appendages. But something like a fox has a relatively long snout that projects away from the the head, and could be considered an appendage.
Kineticist leaves quite a bit of the rules around it up to the imagination. The aiming requirement seems to be there so that people can see the origin of the attack, so using anything you can point in the target's direction should be enough. Godzilla style should be available to everyone honestly, not just those without other options. Toot-toot style, maybe less widely available. I agree though, there's probably table variation on that rule.
For burn reduction, it's good to remember that combined blasts are 2 burn. You can discount the combined blast cost entirely at eight level, but you have nothing left for infusion costs. Supercharge reduces it again later and so on. Kineticist has a weird hiccup design where the cost reduction and cost increases don't sync up; occasionally making the class lame, then great, then lame again.
Overflow for instance seems to give the class it's full BAB and some bonus damage. That's fine, but if the class is designed with the assumption that you're hitting your overflow max, why not just bake it into the class? If the assumption is maxing overflow, we have a full bab class that gets a +1 to hit and about a 1d6 hit die. Same with the cost reducers, they aught to have reduced the cost of abilities that the class was designed around instead of bloating them and offering reductions at different levels. It's not like the class is so bare bones that it needs the padding of extra abilities.
Fire has the issue of nothing decent to dump your burn into to get the overflow bonus at the start of your day until you can grab heat wave and trail of flame. Searing flame could be a pretty cool ability, but getting it at the cost of defense means it's useless. Similarly, fire being melee focused and not having a decent defense means they're in a bit of a bad spot as well. They have rogue to hit, damage and defense with lower hp and inability to equip a shield. Kinetic knight is pretty necessary for that kind of fire build, and I'm not sure it really makes up for the loss of a ranged blast. If dipping water dancer for elemental focus is enough to qualify for water's elemental defense, then you can avoid the need for the archetype. But again, rules are fuzzy on that topic. Once you get trail of flames at 10th level, everything sort of changes.
I'm not saying the class can't be fun. It looks great at 5, 8, 9, and 11. It's just a bit over designed and sloppy in places. Fixing things like class based fly working with gather power, making sure abilities within the elements compliment each other, baking in costs and bonuses rather than pointlessly spreading them around and making sure the class abilities actually have rules and work with the rest of the game would all shape it up nicely.
The idea seems great, but if we're looking at a class balanced around having a base HP of 9 before constitution at 12th level and is running a deficit at 15th, I think it's fair to say that the HP cost for meeting the class's base line abilities is pretty exceptional. Each burn after overpower is maxed is about 1/6th(or 1 over whatever your con mod is) of your hp after 9th level. Every interrupt, every extra burn you spend is a good chunk of your health pool and completely unrecoverable without a full rest. If the class weren't balanced around maxed overflow, it wouldn't be as much of a concern, but with Mark's reply here it appears that it is.
I was wondering before, but why do you mention kinetic form as a good use of burn. All it does for you is reduce your to hit and AC, give you reach, and a bonus to combat maneuvers. Is this to avoid getting locked out of all your class features when you're grappled?