New spell, please critique.


Advice

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Minor Warding
School abjuration; Level arcanist 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, witch 0
Casting
Casting Time: Immediate action
Components V, S
Effect
Range Personal
Duration 1 round

Description
You create a small field of energy around your arm, acting in all ways like a small shield of force. Any abilities or feats that can be applied to a small steel shield can be applied to this effect. The shield has no ACP, no weight, and no spell failure chance.

I'm open to opening it to other classes, but those were the first I thought of having use it. Any other names for it are also welcome.


That's a terrible terrible idea balance-wise.

Feats are balanced with some "common facts" in mind. On of them being: "arcane spellcasters won't benefit of that shield feat, because they can't use shield without huge penalities"
Introducing a CANTRIP that screw this common fact will open the door to insane combos that will do a lot to unbalance spellcasters.

For exemple, what if a spellcaster actualy take the Fortified Armor Training feat? You basicaly made a critical-immune spellcaster.
That's just an exemple, there are many like that.

You should basicaly not make spells that break the boundaries of classes, or else, make it high level enough to come at a cost.
A -cantrip- breaking class boundaries is totaly overpowered.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I understand the general sense of what you're saying. Still, you'd need to invest 2 feats to be able to pull off that trick, because you still need proficiency in shields to take that feat. I also don't think the penalties are as severe as you think. If my wizard wears a buckler, it's a 5% ASF chance.

Would it be better without that ability?


Moonheart wrote:

That's a terrible terrible idea balance-wise.

...
You should basicaly not make spells that break the boundaries of classes, or else, make it high level enough to come at a cost.
A -cantrip- breaking class boundaries is totaly overpowered.

I agree that it's terribly unbalancing, but for the reverse reason. Other classes can get arcane cantrips (by a one-level dip if nothing else). Making it an immediate action is a huge advantage, especially for any class that doesn't use swift actions a lot.


Even more simple:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/two-world-magic/

There are two problems with this spell:

1- It's damn too powerful for a cantrip.

You are writing a spell allowing the spellcaster to bypass feat restrictions. There is no way something like that can be a cantrip.
Cantrip don't make appear piece of combat equipement, those kind of thing only appear from level 2 spells.

2- It's totaly impossible keep balanced.

The spell breaks the boundaries of arcane spellcasters in a way not feat creator probably ever thought about before, so it's bound that one actual or future feat is going to create an insane combo with this spell...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Moonheart wrote:

Even more simple:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/two-world-magic/

There are two problems with this spell:

1- It's damn too powerful for a cantrip.

You are writing a spell allowing the spellcaster to bypass feat restrictions. There is no way something like that can be a cantrip.
Cantrip don't make appear piece of combat equipement, those kind of thing only appear from level 2 spells.

2- It's totaly impossible keep balanced.

The spell breaks the boundaries of arcane spellcasters in a way not feat creator probably ever thought about before, so it's bound that one actual or future feat is going to create an insane combo with this spell...

Defensively, it doesn't seem much stronger than Resistance, lasts for a lot less. It doesn't "create" anything any more than Ray of Frost creates ice. You can't pass around the shield, it's just protecting you.

I based this spell on Resistance, Shield, and Stone Shield, it gives less than a quarter of the bonuses of the latter two, which grant a +4 bonus to AC, and either a +2 to reflex saves or total immunity to an otherwise unstoppable spell.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
Defensively, it doesn't seem much stronger than Resistance, lasts for a lot less.

Does it last less? Unless you have some reason not to cast it every round, it's effectively permanent.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Same for Resistance. It isn't much of an action economy cost, but it is a cost. After all, you can have Resistance up in a surprise round. Not so much for this one.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
Same for Resistance.

Not really, since this is an immediate action.

Val'bryn2 wrote:
It isn't much of an action economy cost, but it is a cost.

It's no cost at all until you need your swift action for something else, which is rare for low level characters.

Val'bryn2 wrote:
After all, you can have Resistance up in a surprise round. Not so much for this one.

Why not? You could cast it every round while exploring.


Val'bryn2 wrote:


I based this spell on Resistance, Shield, and Stone Shield, it gives less than a quarter of the bonuses of the latter two, which grant a +4 bonus to AC, and either a +2 to reflex saves or total immunity to an otherwise unstoppable spell.

Oh, so your spell is only +1 to AC? Is that a shield bonus? Those are important to know.

But as others have pointed out, this is an immediate action cantrip. There's essentially zero cost for casting it every round. I think if you make it a move action and drop the feats and abilities clause, it's more in line with other cantrips. That's assuming only +1 shield bonus to AC.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, sorry, it is supposed to only be a +1, just like a small shield or buckler. Yeah, I can drop that ability, I was thinking about it in terms of Shield Focus, hadn't taken the other feats into consideration. Still curious about the number of people who would actually claim to cast it every round. It just seems absurd to me, and I enjoy playing caster classes.


Ok let me try to make you realize again how powerful your spell is for a cantrip...

Since it's an immediate action and unlimited uses per day, an arcane spellcaster, who have very few use for swift actions anyway until he gets Quicken Spell, can basicaly have that spell active ANYTIME he's attacked.

That spell gives ALL the advantages of a Mithral Buckler: +1 AC, no ASF, lightweight, allow shield feats use.
So basicaly, the existence of the spell means you're giving a free Mithral Buckler to every arcane spellcaster and any other class wanting to spend a trait, for free, at level 1.

But if it was a simple Mithral Buckler.... not even!
That Mithral Buckler do not need any proefficiency to use, do not take inventory space, regenerate in one round if broken, and allow use of two-handed weapons with it (when attacked, relase the grip of your 2H weapon as a free action, use immediate action to cast the spell, withstand the attack roll, then use another free action to grip your 2H again)

How much do you think such an item would cost in GP if you roll an appraise check on it?

Silver Crusade

Moonheart wrote:

But if it was a simple Mithral Buckler.... not even!

That Mithral Buckler do not need any proefficiency to use, do not take inventory space, regenerate in one round if broken, and allow use of two-handed weapons with it (when attacked, relase the grip of your 2H weapon as a free action, use immediate action to cast the spell, withstand the attack roll, then use another free action to grip your 2H again)

Mithral Bucklers do not require proficiency either, take negligible inventory space (only 2.5lb), nobody has EVER wasted an action to sunder a Buckler in the whole history of Pathfinder (probably) and does allow the use of 2h weapons (although with -1 penalty and losing the AC bonus, as if Wizards are known to use 2h weapons...).

In turn, the buckler doesn't need any action to be used and is always on (vs an immediate/swift action every round to keep the cantrip, and cannot be cast while flat-footed). Furthermore it can be enhanced up to +6 AC, which is the actual advantage of a shield in the first place: it can be upgraded staying competitive during the game.

To the OP: the cantrip is fine, it won't break the game and will become obsolete within a few levels as +1 AC will become negligible and swift actions will be employed for something else. In fact, I am sure that even with such cantrip, arcane casters will still invest in a Mithral buckler as soon as they will be able to afford one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So basically a +1 shield bonus to AC, at the price of your swift action economy and a cantrip slot. If anything this sounds a bit weak, and its only redeeming feature will be the ability to make cheeky use of shield-related feats. I agree with Gray Warden, this doesn't look like it will be a problem at all.


Gray Warden wrote:
Mithral Bucklers do not require proficiency either

Technicaly it does, it's just that the penaly for not having it is reduced to 0 is the buckler is at least masterwork.

Quote:
take negligible inventory space (only 2.5lb)

2.5lb on a class that sometimes starts with 7 strength score is far from neglectible

Quote:
nobody has EVER wasted an action to sunder a Buckler in the whole history of Pathfinder (probably)

As formentioned: Fortified Armor Training

Plus, sorry, I met several boss with the automatic sunder abilities during Pathfinder standard adventure paths.
They did not even need to spend an action to sunder our equipment the sundering maneuver was an automatic bonus everytime they landed a hit on us.

Quote:
and does allow the use of 2h weapons (although with -1 penalty and losing the AC bonus, as if Wizards are known to use 2h weapons...).

Wrong. If you use your second hand to use the a weapon, the buckler lose stop providing his bonus to AC until your next turn.

But this spell allows you to make appear the buckler ONCE your hand is perfectly free.

-------------

You lack some knowledge about the finger prints of the pathfinder's combat rules, but believe me, any over-optimizing player will point them to their DM if you create such a cantrip.
Balance in Pathfinder never was a problem about what a spell/feat/ability does alone.... but about what it does in COMBINATION with the other existing content.

A simple exemple of this:

2h weapon-using barbarian
Trait "Two-world magic" to get access to that cantrip
Feat "Fortified Armor Training"
=> At the end of each of his round, once he finished to attack (without any penalty, since he didn't have a shield), the barbarian release the grip of his weapon as a free action, then use the spell. He has now a buckler increasing his AC, since the buckler was never here when he used his offhand to attack, so it doesn't lose his bonus to AC.
If any attacker perform a critical hit him, he sacrifice the say shield, since its disposable at will, and will be back the next round.

Gratz, you created a barbarian with increased AC and immune to critical hits with a simple "balanced" cantrip.

And ocnce again, this is a mere sample... I found it in less than 2mn of research, but players reasearch insane combos during months, or years, in Pathfinder.

Silver Crusade

Moonheart wrote:
Technicaly it does, it's just that the penaly for not having it is reduced to 0 is the buckler is at least masterwork.

So, in practice, it does not.

Moonheart wrote:
2.5lb on a class that sometimes starts with 7 strength score is far from neglectible

For a permanent bonus to AC up to +6? I think it's very worth the weight.

Moonheart wrote:

Plus, sorry, I met several boss with the automatic sunder abilities during Pathfinder standard adventure paths.

They did not even need to spend an action to sunder our equipment the sundering maneuver was an automatic bonus everytime they landed a hit on us.

Like what? There is no Sunder special ability that I know of (unlike Trip). Even so, it's hard to imagine a boss prioritising the sundering of a buckler over an armor or a weapon.

Moonheart wrote:
If you use your second hand to use the a weapon, the buckler lose stop providing his bonus to AC until your next turn.

Which I had already stated in my response (I was assuming a normal buckler).

Moonheart wrote:

2h weapon-using barbarian

Trait "Two-world magic" to get access to that cantrip

Barbarians cannot get Two-world magic, so your example is moot.

Even so, an easy fix would be to just treat it as Mage Armor: a flat shield bonus and that's it.

On a side note, you can already do that with Quick Draw and a bunch of mundane Quick Draw shields: perfectly legal, no house-ruled, no wasted swift actions, and yet it doesn't seem to me that players get crazy over such build. In other words, even if your example worked, it's hardly over-powered given the expenditure of resources and the extremely circumstantial use.


Oh please, stop nippicking. I could replace Barbarian with Cleric, Magus, Druid, Paladin or whatever.... that doesn't change at all the fundamental point.

This spell is:
- giving a permanent 1 shield AC to every spellcaster as long he doesn't need his swift action for something
- bypassing the prerequisites of a lot of shield feats

There is absolutely no way this can be considered as a cantrip level spell.
You cannot put this at the same level as a spell that simply helps you to lit a campfire !!!

Silver Crusade

Moonheart wrote:

Oh please, stop nippicking. I could replace Barbarian with Cleric, Magus, Druid, Paladin or whatever.... that doesn't change at all the fundamental point.

This spell is:
- giving a permanent 1 shield AC to every spellcaster as long he doesn't need his swift action for something
- bypassing the prerequisites of a lot of shield feats

There is absolutely no way this can be considered as a cantrip level spell.
You cannot put this at the same level as a spell that simply helps you to lit a campfire !!!

Paladins can't get the trait either.

But again (talking about nitpicking), the core of my reply is that the same can be done with mundane, inexpensive Quick Draw shields, without the need to waste a precious swift action. Can you explain to me why there is no saturation of "Crit-immune" Barbarians, Clerics, Magi, Paladins if such combination is so powerful?


Because once the Barbarian, Clerics, Magi, Paladins used the feat to cancel one critical hit, their shield is broken and can't serve this purpose anymore, and they will have to fight with a reduced AC until the end of the fight... when someone could do something to actualy repair the said shield.

That spell simply cancel the normal penality of the feat by producing a new shield every round at NO cost. No standard/move action spent, no spell spent, just like this *snap fingers*

---

Now, that was the last time I answer your nippicking about this exemple, because it's only ONE exemple among many I could find if I was wanting to spend 2 hours browsing the feat database just for your eyes.

The -main- problem is that what this spell does is -not- at the cantrip level. Resiliance is a cantrip, just compare what it does to this spell: it cannot be cast as a immediate action, and it doesn't allow you to use feats you couldn't use normally.

THIS is what a cantrip spell does, a very minor thing, at the price of a simple standard action.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm sorry, I still don't buy that argument in full, because in order to achieve that "immune to critical hits" ability, you have to spend one of only two traits you get and a feat, when you don't get that many. That's essentially saying that a flame version of Ray of Frost is overpowered, because it can ignite 20 tons of gunpowder.

Silver Crusade

Moonheart wrote:

Because once the Barbarian, Clerics, Magi, Paladins used the feat to cancel one critical hit, their shield is broken and can't serve this purpose anymore, and they will have to fight with a reduced AC until the end of the fight... when someone could do something to actualy repair the said shield.

That spell simply cancel the normal penality of the feat by producing a new shield every round at NO cost. No standard/move action spent, no spell spent, just like this *snap fingers*

Again (3x), with Quick Draw you can don a Quick Draw shield as a free action, which means that you can attack with your weapon wielded 2H, wield it 1H at the end of your turn, free action draw the shield from your bag of mundane, non-mwk inexpensive Quick Draw shields, and wait for the crit to land. If it does, the shield is broken; put it away and repeat with a new shield. At the end of the day you can easily fix the broken shields with Mending (if you really want to use a cantrip) and they are good as new. No swift action required, perfectly legal, and yet nobody uses it. I wonder why.

Moonheart wrote:
Now, that was the last time I answer your nippicking about this exemple, because it's only ONE exemple among many I could find if I was wanting to spend 2 hours browsing the feat database just for your eyes.

It was your choice to prove your point using an example that doesn't work. If, as you say, this is just one of many, then you might want to show one that actually fits.

Moonheart wrote:
The -main- problem is that what this spell does is -not- at the cantrip level. Resiliance is a cantrip, just compare what it does to this spell: it cannot be cast as a immediate action, and it doesn't allow you to use feats you couldn't use normally.

Both Resistance (not Resiliance) and this cantrip give a +1 bonus to resist a harmful effect (ST or AC). Both become obsolete with a 1kgp item. Resistance requires a standard action to cast, but lasts a whole minute, and no further actions are needed to benefit from it.

Moonheart wrote:
THIS is what a cantrip spell does, a very minor thing, at the price of a simple standard action.

Grasp is a cantrip that can be cast as an immediate action, and may very well save a character's life. I guess this is game-breaking too.


People don't use the quickdraw shield thing because most GMs would give you the stinkeye, and it would feel wrong. It's like using the equipment trick sunrod feat to qualify for mystic theurge. You CAN, but it would feel wrong, and a GM is justified to shutting it down.

Grasps is an immediate action which is strong, but a reroll on a failed climb check isn't really as likely to come up as the shield bonus.

I would test it out to see if it is an issue, I would theorize that at later levels people would stop caring. I would personally make it at least 1st level.

Edit: As a point of reference, the Spell Bane gives a single enemy -1 to attack rolls, takes a standard action, requires the enemy to fail a will save, and is 1st level. Minor Warding definitely feels stronger than that on all counts. The only thing that might come up is if you want a specific enemy to be worse at attacking all your friends rather than just you.


Gray Warden wrote:
Both Resistance (not Resiliance) and this cantrip give a +1 bonus to resist a harmful effect (ST or AC). Both become obsolete with a 1kgp item. Resistance requires a standard action to cast, but lasts a whole minute, and no further actions are needed to benefit from it.

- This spell works even if you didn't had some time to prepare yourself before the start of fight, Resistance doesn't.

- This spell can be used during a surprise round, Resistance doesn't.
- This spell can protect you even if two or more of those harmful effect happen during the same round, Resistance doesn't.
- This spell can have its effect renewed for another round without having to forfeit the right to cast another spell at the same round, Resistance doesn't
- This spell still provide you the right to use feats you would not be able to use without it, Resistance doesn't.
... add also this spell works against a much more common harmful effect that the one Resistance protects against

Also, could you tell me which 1kgp item actualy provide you an infinite stock of weightless quickdraw mithral bucklers, I'm totaly curious about it?

Gray Warden wrote:
Grasp is a cantrip that can be cast as an immediate action, and may very well save a character's life. I guess this is game-breaking too.

You're being ridiculous. When was the last time you saw a full arcane spellcaster actualy even attempt ONE climb roll that could make him killed if he fails at it?

Silver Crusade

Moonheart wrote:

- This spell works even if you didn't had some time to prepare yourself before the start of fight, Resistance doesn't.

- This spell can be used during a surprise round, Resistance doesn't.
- This spell can protect you even if two or more of those harmful effect happen during the same round, Resistance doesn't.
- This spell can have its effect renewed for another round without having to forfeit the right to cast another spell at the same round, Resistance doesn't
- This spell still provide you the right to use feats you would not be able to use without it, Resistance doesn't.
... add also this spell works against a much more common harmful effect that the one Resistance protects against

- Resistance requires only one action to be effective for a whole minute.

- Ehm, no. You can't cast immediate actions if you're flat-footed. Check the rules.
- Ehm, Resistance apply to ALL saves in a round without, again, requiring actions to renew the benefit. You really need to check out Resistance.
- Resistance locks you out from casting only on the FIRST round. This spell eats your swift action EVERY round, swift action you could use to buff yourself if Warpriest, activate Arcane Strike if Magus, or making a whole extra attack EVERY round via Hurtful.
- There are no feats that would apply to Resistance anyway.
- Lol, because I guess spells are notoriously less dangerous than raw damage.

Moonheart" wrote:
Also, could you tell me which 1kgp item actualy provide you an infinite stock of weightless quickdraw mithral bucklers, I'm totaly curious about it?

You don't need infinite quickdraw mithral bucklers (btw, it's eiter mithral buckler, or vanilla quickdraw shield; I start believing you do not understand how this works). If you just want a sheld, you only need one Mithral buckler. If you want to do the broken shield shenanigans, you just need a few normal, non-mwk Quickdraw shields. What's still unclear about that?

Gray Warden wrote:
You're being ridiculous. When was the last time you saw a full arcane spellcaster actualy even attempt ONE climb roll that could make him killed if he fails at it?

In a pool of blood at the bottom of a tower. He was probably regretting having prepared Shield instead of Feather Fall.

On a more serious note, it was you who defined a cantrip as a "very minor thing, at the price of a standard action". It's not my fault if your definitions don't match reality.

None of your examples broke the game in a spectacular way as you clame they did, and at the same time can be replicated using mundane, RAW methods which are far from being considered OP. This spell is fine, deal with it.

Silver Crusade

EDIT. Resistance applies to ALL saves in a minute*. All this talking about rounds got me confused.


Alright Gary, you made some points. I misreaded the Resistance spell I admit it.... so let's look at your other claims:

Gray Warden wrote:
You don't need infinite quickdraw mithral bucklers (btw, it's eiter mithral buckler, or vanilla quickdraw shield; I start believing you do not understand how this works). If you just want a sheld, you only need one Mithral buckler. If you want to do the broken shield shenanigans, you just need a few normal, non-mwk Quickdraw shields. What's still unclear about that?

That's you who don't understand how it works, imho.

The spell actualy does not do one thing or another, it does everything at the same time:
- providing you a shield during the -integrality- of the fight as long you sacrifice all your swift actions for this without making you suffer from ASF
- losing the "broken" at each round if you need the broken shield feat

You cannot evaluate need separatly because there is absolutely no way for you to know which attack will turn into a critical hit, to make the critical only land on "normal" shields.
So EVERY quickdraw shield you have need to have ASF to be able to match the spell on those two points.

Then, once you did that, there will stay the fact that this spell cost nothing toward your total encumbrance (that's what I did put the "weightless" word you conveniently ignored in my questions) and cost you absolutly no gold to use.

And after that, you'll have to face your DM's wrath for bringing absurd strategies to his table...

So... sorry but no, this spell truly does something that you cannot do without, and which largely exceed the boundaries of what cantrips are supposed to do.

You cannot have a level 0 spell producing an illimited amount of disposable combat gear, even of a weak kind.

Silver Crusade

- the spell grants both the benefits, but only one is always relevant at any given time, depending on the build. If you only need it to cast, then a mithral buckler does the trick; if you need it to parry crits, then 5 or so normal quickdraw shields are enough, while AT THE SAME TIME handling the problem of ASF (see next point)

- you are donning and removing the shield as a free action AT THE END of your turn, so you don't need it to have no ASF, since you can remove the shield, cast (or attack with a 2H weapon) and don it again.

- the weight is not a problem. If you just need a single shield, 2.5lb for a possible +6 bonus to AC are literally nothing, even for a 7 Str character, and you cannot possibly draw the line defining what is OP and what is not over 2.5lb of weight. If you need the pile of shields to defend yourself against crits while attacking with a 2h weapon (your example), then chances are you have enough Str to be able to carry at least 5 of them. If not, the weight and number of shields is irrelevant as soon as a Handy Haversack or similar extradimensional space is used.

- the spell costs you A SWIFT ACTION EVERY ROUND.

- LOL, you were the one bringing this whole build up. If using quickdraw shields to parry crits is "absurd", how would you call breaking FORCE SHIELDS instead?!

- nothing this spell does or can do cannot be replicated using mundane, RAW mechanics. I invite you to provide a clear example of game-breaking build that depends exclusively upon this spell and that cannot be replicated without it.


You are soooooo stubborn. That's amazing.

Once again:
- EVEN if nobody can fin any game-breaking build using this spell
- EVEN if the can replicate the example I givben by mundane means
That doesn't change that spell is too strong for a cantrip! Stop focusing on isolated cases and look at the problem as a whole!

I gave ONE example of use for this spell, and just to counter this exemple, you described a method which implies to buy X shields, deal with the extra encumbrance of those shields (5 lbs each, on classes who starts usualy with a max of 26 lbs in total) and take an extra feat (Quick Draw)... all this just for ONE use.

Try to just imagine what it would take to replicate ALL the possible uses someone could fit in a build exploiting seriously this spell!
How can't you actualy still fail at seeing that's far too much for a level 0 spell?

Seriously I'm out of this silly talk. This will not lead anywhere to continue

Silver Crusade

And yet it was the ONLY example you could find to prove your point. THIS is amazing.

Bye bye.


to make this more into level of other cantrips i'd change it into this:

Minor shielding
wizard\sorc - 0 (add other classes as seen fit)
school - abj
Comp - V,S
casting time - 1 standard action
duration - 1 min, or until discharged, see below.
range - touch
save - yes, harmless.
spell resistance - yes
info: the spell provide a small force shield that hover near the target and grant a +1 shield bonus, which does not stack with other shields. the shield last for one minute or until the target is hit by a normal melee or ranged attack (an attack which ignore the shield doesn't count).
this does not count as a shield : it take no hand to wield, it doesn't obstruct spell casting or give armor penalty and it does not work with any feat or other effect that work with normal shields.
note, as magic missile uses no hit roll it bypass this shield but does not discharge it.

i think this should be a lot more balanced with other level 0 spells out there, such as 'guidance'. (1 min till discharged, felt like making it useful for only one attack would be too useless so made it to discharge once hit. a bit like old mage armor from 2ed)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The one hit discharge feels weak, since Resistance can be used any number of times. It's redundant to specify it's a shield bonus that doesn't stack with other shield bonuses, because they already don't.

Silver Crusade

If you really want to use the same syntax of other cantrips, I'd make it the same as Resistance: standard action to cast, flat +1 shield bonus that lasts 1 minute, which also compares well with the Shield spell.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A fair point. Really, the idea for this has been bouncing around my head for a while, the main idea came from a breather episode of Voltron, where they were playing an RPG, one was a mage who had a shield like the one I was proposing. It could have just been a Ring of Force Shield, which does pretty much what I wanted as an item rather than a spell.

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