paizo.com Recent Posts in Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?paizo.com Recent Posts in Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?2018-08-02T18:00:08Z2018-08-02T18:00:08ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#342018-06-27T00:53:33Z2018-06-27T00:53:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cheburn wrote:</div><blockquote>Your claim is that the first is a better typical example of a pirate in a fantasy game than the second? It's a bit like claiming that the very archetype of a soldier is ... anyone who's completed basic training, because all soldiers have done that. </blockquote><p>It is my claim that the first is more 'archetypal': full stop.
<p>The archetype is a single feat plus 0 - unknown feats which ends up with the 'typical' pirate impossible to know: each one 'dedicates' themselves in it as much as they wish, so just how much they typically will and/or can invest in pirate feats is up in the air.</p>
<p>A background pirates would ALL have the same abilities, so you can easily point to what an 'archetypal' one of those is.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Captain Morgan wrote:</div><blockquote>Dedication would be a substantially worse label for you, then. </blockquote><p>Not so: it take real dedication to escape one and be able to take another. ;)Cheburn wrote:Your claim is that the first is a better typical example of a pirate in a fantasy game than the second? It's a bit like claiming that the very archetype of a soldier is ... anyone who's completed basic training, because all soldiers have done that.
It is my claim that the first is more 'archetypal': full stop. The archetype is a single feat plus 0 - unknown feats which ends up with the 'typical' pirate impossible to know: each one 'dedicates' themselves in it as much as they...graystone2018-06-27T00:53:33ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Captain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#332018-06-26T15:00:02Z2018-06-26T15:00:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Cheburn wrote:</div><blockquote>"Jack Silver a rogue and is the archetypal pirate." </blockquote>My only issue with that is that it only requires a single feat for jack to be "the archetypal pirate.": Thats not , IMO, a shining example of being a pirate vs someone that's taking every single pirate feat. Gaining access to feats is different from gaining abilities that show/prove the archetype's theme. IE, very few pirates will be have identical abilities, making the archetype nebulous at best. In fact, a background [pirate] is more archetypal that the archetype is as everyone that has it gets the same set of abilities. </blockquote><p>Dedication would be a substantially worse label for you, then.graystone wrote:Cheburn wrote:"Jack Silver a rogue and is the archetypal pirate."
My only issue with that is that it only requires a single feat for jack to be "the archetypal pirate.": Thats not , IMO, a shining example of being a pirate vs someone that's taking every single pirate feat. Gaining access to feats is different from gaining abilities that show/prove the archetype's theme. IE, very few pirates will be have identical abilities, making the archetype nebulous at best. In fact, a...Captain Morgan2018-06-26T15:00:02ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Cheburnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#322018-09-28T10:14:11Z2018-06-26T12:21:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote>In fact, a background [pirate] is more archetypal that the archetype is as everyone that has it gets the same set of abilities.</blockquote><p>I feel that's a real misuse of the term. Of course, what makes something an "archetype" of anything is open to debate IRL, and there is always opinion and judgment involved.
<p>Let's look at your example though. Since we don't know what it does, let's assume for the second that the Pirate background gives you:
<br />
<li>Two ability boosts.
<br />
<li>The fictional "Rope Climber" skill feat
<br />
<li>Training in the Piracy Lore skill.
<br />
which is pretty similar to other backgrounds.</p>
<p>So you have two characters:
<br />
<li>One is good at climbing ropes (useful on ships), and knows a few things about piracy.
<br />
<li>The other knows how to sail, can move and balance effortlessly on a ship as it pitches in the sea, knows how to use a hatchet, scimitar, and spear, and is amazing at acrobatics. As they continue to advance, they also get better at swimming and learn to board enemy ships with great success.</p>
<p>Your claim is that the first is a better typical example of a pirate in a fantasy game than the second? It's a bit like claiming that the very archetype of a soldier is ... anyone who's completed basic training, because all soldiers have done that.</p>graystone wrote:In fact, a background [pirate] is more archetypal that the archetype is as everyone that has it gets the same set of abilities.
I feel that's a real misuse of the term. Of course, what makes something an "archetype" of anything is open to debate IRL, and there is always opinion and judgment involved. Let's look at your example though. Since we don't know what it does, let's assume for the second that the Pirate background gives you:
Two ability boosts.
The fictional "Rope...Cheburn2018-06-26T12:21:51ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#312018-06-25T19:52:22Z2018-06-25T19:52:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cheburn wrote:</div><blockquote>"Jack Silver a rogue and is the archetypal pirate." </blockquote><p>My only issue with that is that it only requires a single feat for jack to be "the archetypal pirate.": Thats not , IMO, a shining example of being a pirate vs someone that's taking every single pirate feat. Gaining access to feats is different from gaining abilities that show/prove the archetype's theme. IE, very few pirates will be have identical abilities, making the archetype nebulous at best. In fact, a background [pirate] is more archetypal that the archetype is as everyone that has it gets the same set of abilities.Cheburn wrote:"Jack Silver a rogue and is the archetypal pirate."
My only issue with that is that it only requires a single feat for jack to be "the archetypal pirate.": Thats not , IMO, a shining example of being a pirate vs someone that's taking every single pirate feat. Gaining access to feats is different from gaining abilities that show/prove the archetype's theme. IE, very few pirates will be have identical abilities, making the archetype nebulous at best. In fact, a background...graystone2018-06-25T19:52:22ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Cheburnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#302018-06-25T19:24:21Z2018-06-25T19:24:21Z<p>I'll throw my hat in the ring as someone who prefers the term "Archetype" to "Dedication," though I'd prefer it more in its adjectival form.</p>
<p>"Jack Silver a rogue and is the archetypal pirate."</p>I'll throw my hat in the ring as someone who prefers the term "Archetype" to "Dedication," though I'd prefer it more in its adjectival form.
"Jack Silver a rogue and is the archetypal pirate."Cheburn2018-06-25T19:24:21ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?QuidEsthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#292018-06-25T19:19:18Z2018-06-25T19:19:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Captain Morgan wrote:</div><blockquote> It might molify some people, though they have promoted "archetypes are now core" for a while now. </blockquote><p>They might still be. The playtest doesn’t cover all the content of the final book. But fancy (ie traditional) archetypes Being APG content would also make sense.Captain Morgan wrote:It might molify some people, though they have promoted "archetypes are now core" for a while now.
They might still be. The playtest doesn’t cover all the content of the final book. But fancy (ie traditional) archetypes Being APG content would also make sense.QuidEst2018-06-25T19:19:18ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Captain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#282018-06-25T19:13:40Z2018-06-25T19:13:40Z<p>It might molify some people, though they have promoted "archetypes are now core" for a while now.</p>It might molify some people, though they have promoted "archetypes are now core" for a while now.Captain Morgan2018-06-25T19:13:40ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Yolande d'Barhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#272018-06-25T19:44:16Z2018-06-25T19:10:20Z<p>Yeah. What if universal archetypes (like "pirate") were called Dedications, and class-specific archetypes (for instance, "tome eater" for occultist only) retained the name Archetype?</p>Yeah. What if universal archetypes (like "pirate") were called Dedications, and class-specific archetypes (for instance, "tome eater" for occultist only) retained the name Archetype?Yolande d'Bar2018-06-25T19:10:20ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Elorebaenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#262018-06-25T18:51:13Z2018-06-25T18:11:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Deadmanwalking wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Thematically? There isn't always gonna be a difference in many ways. You can have a Gladiator Archetype pretty readily to go with the Gladiator Background, for example. </p>
<p>I'd say the big difference is that Background is how you were raised, or a pivotal role you once played. It's not necessarily an ongoing part of who you are and why and how you do what you do. Archetypes are pivotal to who you <i>are now</i> rather than just who you were. </blockquote><p>This. Pretty straightforward.
<p>Side note, I like calling universal archetypes, dedications instead</p>Deadmanwalking wrote:Thematically? There isn't always gonna be a difference in many ways. You can have a Gladiator Archetype pretty readily to go with the Gladiator Background, for example.
I'd say the big difference is that Background is how you were raised, or a pivotal role you once played. It's not necessarily an ongoing part of who you are and why and how you do what you do. Archetypes are pivotal to who you are now rather than just who you were.
This. Pretty straightforward. Side...Elorebaen2018-06-25T18:11:02ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?gnoamshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#252018-06-25T19:20:36Z2018-06-25T18:04:41Z<p>Background: what you did before becoming an adventurer.
<br />
Archetype: what you do now, as an adventurer.</p>Background: what you did before becoming an adventurer.
Archetype: what you do now, as an adventurer.gnoams2018-06-25T18:04:41ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Yolande d'Barhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#242018-06-25T19:08:02Z2018-06-25T17:45:22Z<p>Wow. I think I also prefer Dedication to Archetype.</p>Wow. I think I also prefer Dedication to Archetype.Yolande d'Bar2018-06-25T17:45:22ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?sadiehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#232018-06-26T15:26:04Z2018-06-25T15:01:31Z<p>More realistically, I think "Path" probably describes how I see these new archetypes. They represent something that the character is doing with their life.</p>
<p>For example:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>Joseph was born on the Chelaxian coast, and grew up in a Noble household. On reaching maturity he trained as a Fighter, with a focus on duelling with swords, as would be expected of a young nobleman. When his family's financial interests called him to visit the Mwangi colonies he discovered a love of the sea and turned his training to the life of a Pirate.
</p>
</blockquote><p>This basically explains why they're disconnected from classes, why you can't take them until 2nd level or later, and why you can't easily take more than one of them.More realistically, I think "Path" probably describes how I see these new archetypes. They represent something that the character is doing with their life.
For example:
Quote:Joseph was born on the Chelaxian coast, and grew up in a Noble household. On reaching maturity he trained as a Fighter, with a focus on duelling with swords, as would be expected of a young nobleman. When his family's financial interests called him to visit the Mwangi colonies he discovered a love of the sea and turned...sadie2018-06-25T15:01:31ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?sadiehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#222018-06-25T13:21:10Z2018-06-25T13:21:10Z<p>As in, it's something your character has dedicated themselves to. That actually fits.</p>As in, it's something your character has dedicated themselves to. That actually fits.sadie2018-06-25T13:21:10ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Captain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#212018-06-25T18:51:55Z2018-06-25T13:01:15Z<p>You know, I absolutely didn't mind calling these new archetypes archetypes... But calling them dedications actually seems like a pretty decent idea.</p>You know, I absolutely didn't mind calling these new archetypes archetypes... But calling them dedications actually seems like a pretty decent idea.Captain Morgan2018-06-25T13:01:15ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Milo v3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#202018-06-25T12:54:00Z2018-06-25T12:54:00Z<p>In a setting with classes as actual discernable things in the world rather than abstractions to represent a common set of skills/power sources, then archetypes would probably be seen as classes yet shorter.</p>In a setting with classes as actual discernable things in the world rather than abstractions to represent a common set of skills/power sources, then archetypes would probably be seen as classes yet shorter.Milo v32018-06-25T12:54:00ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Cheburnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#192018-06-25T12:43:40Z2018-06-25T12:43:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sadie wrote:</div><blockquote><p>What I meant to ask was something more specific than this, and relates to multiclassing.</p>
<p><li>In Pathfinder 1e, each archetype is specific to a class. You can be a Rogue (Thief) + Alchemist (Mad Scientist), for example. The Mad Scientist archetype is attached to the Alchemist class.
<br />
<li>In Starfinder, archetypes aren't specific to classes any more, but they are still attached to class when you take them. You can be a Soldier (Cyborg) + Envoy (Phrenic Adept). The Phrenic Adept archetype is attached to the Envoy class, since it replaces class features.
<br />
In Pathfinder 2e, archetypes have some requirements, need a dedication feat to unlock, then provide further feats. We know they're not necessarily specific to a class, but are they still attached to a class? If I play a Rogue + Alchemist with the Pirate archetype, am I playing a Rogue (Pirate) + Alchemist, or am I playing a Rogue + Alchemist + Pirate? Is there even a difference?</p>
<p>Understanding that is key to seeing how Paizo sees archetypes now. Are they specialisations of classes, or are they specialisations of whole characters? It so far seems to be the latter, which is why I'm not sure the old name 'archetype', with its connotations of class-specialisation, fits them.</blockquote><p>We don't really know how multiclassing works in PF2e yet, but based on the Archetypes blog and the general structure of classes and feats, I'd be absolutely shocked if the sorts of archetypes previewed are attached to the class you are when you take them first feat. That really defeats the entire purpose of the modular character design that PF2e seems to be going for.
<p>In other words, I <i>strongly</i> suspect that you'll be playing an Alchemist(4)/Rogue(5) who has dedicated herself to becoming the most piratey pirate of all (Pirate archetype, 3 feats).</p>Sadie wrote:What I meant to ask was something more specific than this, and relates to multiclassing.
In Pathfinder 1e, each archetype is specific to a class. You can be a Rogue (Thief) + Alchemist (Mad Scientist), for example. The Mad Scientist archetype is attached to the Alchemist class.
In Starfinder, archetypes aren't specific to classes any more, but they are still attached to class when you take them. You can be a Soldier (Cyborg) + Envoy (Phrenic Adept). The Phrenic Adept archetype is...Cheburn2018-06-25T12:43:40ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?sadiehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#182018-06-26T13:16:34Z2018-06-25T12:28:02Z<p>I was (mostly) joking about the letter 'D'...</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">mrianmerry wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">sadie wrote:</div><blockquote> I know we haven't had the multiclass blog yet, but I have to wonder - are archetypes even still linked to classes?</blockquote><p>From the <a href="http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkvj?Archetypes-for-All" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Archetypes for All</a> blog:
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jason Bulmahn wrote:</div><blockquote>We also wanted to open them up a bit, so we could build archetypes allowing more than one class to access their features and feats, as opposed to having to recreate a concept for every applicable class with an entirely new archetype. <b>This doesn't prevent us from creating more specific archetypes as well</b>, but it opens up the design space further.</blockquote><p>So what it seems like to me, from reading this, is that Archetypes will be split into Class-Specific Archetypes, and Universal Archetypes.
<p>I can't imagine how they're planning to make the distinction here, but it sounds interesting!</blockquote><p>What I meant to ask was something more specific than this, and relates to multiclassing.
<p><ul>
<br />
<li>In Pathfinder 1e, each archetype is specific to a class. You can be a Rogue (Thief) + Alchemist (Mad Scientist), for example. The Mad Scientist archetype is attached to the Alchemist class.
<br />
<li>In Starfinder, archetypes aren't specific to classes any more, but they are still attached to class when you take them. You can be a Soldier (Cyborg) + Envoy (Phrenic Adept). The Phrenic Adept archetype is attached to the Envoy class, since it replaces class features.
<br />
</ul></p>
<p>In Pathfinder 2e, archetypes have some requirements, need a dedication feat to unlock, then provide further feats. We know they're not necessarily specific to a class, but are they still attached to a class? If I play a Rogue + Alchemist with the Pirate archetype, am I playing a Rogue (Pirate) + Alchemist, or am I playing a Rogue + Alchemist + Pirate? Is there even a difference?</p>
<p>Understanding that is key to seeing how Paizo sees archetypes now. Are they specialisations of classes, or are they specialisations of whole characters? It so far seems to be the latter, which is why I'm not sure the old name 'archetype', with its connotations of class-specialisation, fits them.</p>I was (mostly) joking about the letter 'D'...
mrianmerry wrote:sadie wrote: I know we haven't had the multiclass blog yet, but I have to wonder - are archetypes even still linked to classes?
From the Archetypes for All blog:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:We also wanted to open them up a bit, so we could build archetypes allowing more than one class to access their features and feats, as opposed to having to recreate a concept for every applicable class with an entirely new archetype. This doesn't...sadie2018-06-25T12:28:02ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Artificial 20https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#172018-09-19T17:10:28Z2018-06-25T11:34:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">mrianmerry wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">sadie wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If not, then it seems to me like archetypes should be renamed.</p>
<p>Preferably to something starting with 'D'. </blockquote>Try as I might, I can't come up with something for this! </blockquote><p>Why not rename them to Dedications?
<p>That's the feat type they require.</p>mrianmerry wrote:sadie wrote:If not, then it seems to me like archetypes should be renamed.
Preferably to something starting with 'D'.
Try as I might, I can't come up with something for this! Why not rename them to Dedications? That's the feat type they require.Artificial 202018-06-25T11:34:34ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Malk_Contenthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#162018-06-25T11:31:26Z2018-06-25T11:31:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">mrianmerry wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">sadie wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If not, then it seems to me like archetypes should be renamed.</p>
<p>Preferably to something starting with 'D'. </blockquote>Try as I might, I can't come up with something for this! </blockquote><p>Destiny or something like that. But we shouldn't make it a D anyway. The only benefit of that is for character gen to be A B C D, and I don't think anyone want Archetypes to be an assumed part of character creation.mrianmerry wrote:sadie wrote:If not, then it seems to me like archetypes should be renamed.
Preferably to something starting with 'D'.
Try as I might, I can't come up with something for this! Destiny or something like that. But we shouldn't make it a D anyway. The only benefit of that is for character gen to be A B C D, and I don't think anyone want Archetypes to be an assumed part of character creation.Malk_Content2018-06-25T11:31:26ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?mrianmerryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#152018-06-25T11:27:48Z2018-06-25T11:27:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">sadie wrote:</div><blockquote> I know we haven't had the multiclass blog yet, but I have to wonder - are archetypes even still linked to classes?</blockquote><p>From the <a href="http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkvj?Archetypes-for-All" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Archetypes for All</a> blog:
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jason Bulmahn wrote:</div><blockquote>We also wanted to open them up a bit, so we could build archetypes allowing more than one class to access their features and feats, as opposed to having to recreate a concept for every applicable class with an entirely new archetype. <b>This doesn't prevent us from creating more specific archetypes as well</b>, but it opens up the design space further.</blockquote><p>So what it seems like to me, from reading this, is that Archetypes will be split into Class-Specific Archetypes, and Universal Archetypes.
<p>I can't imagine how they're planning to make the distinction here, but it sounds interesting!
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">sadie wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If not, then it seems to me like archetypes should be renamed.</p>
<p>Preferably to something starting with 'D'. </blockquote><p>Try as I might, I can't come up with something for this!sadie wrote:I know we haven't had the multiclass blog yet, but I have to wonder - are archetypes even still linked to classes?
From the Archetypes for All blog:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:We also wanted to open them up a bit, so we could build archetypes allowing more than one class to access their features and feats, as opposed to having to recreate a concept for every applicable class with an entirely new archetype. This doesn't prevent us from creating more specific archetypes as well, but it...mrianmerry2018-06-25T11:27:48ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?sadiehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#142018-06-25T20:34:38Z2018-06-25T09:05:47Z<p>It's a valid point. Even if Paizo do clarify the thematic difference between a background and an archetype - that an archetype is the path somebody is currently on rather than where they came from - they're still mechanically very similar. An archetype is effectively the fourth block in the character build chain.</p>
<p><ul>
<br />
<li>Ancestry
<br />
<li>Background
<br />
<li>Class
<br />
<li>Archetype
<br />
</ul></p>
<p>I know we haven't had the multiclass blog yet, but I have to wonder - are archetypes even still linked to classes? If not, then it seems to me like archetypes should be renamed.</p>
<p>Preferably to something starting with 'D'.</p>It's a valid point. Even if Paizo do clarify the thematic difference between a background and an archetype - that an archetype is the path somebody is currently on rather than where they came from - they're still mechanically very similar. An archetype is effectively the fourth block in the character build chain.
Ancestry
Background
Class
Archetype
I know we haven't had the multiclass blog yet, but I have to wonder - are archetypes even still linked to classes? If not, then it seems to me...sadie2018-06-25T09:05:47ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Malk_Contenthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#132018-06-25T05:39:19Z2018-06-25T05:39:19Z<p>If you are houseruling that mechanics equal in world definitions then all you have to do is houserule different names that you prefer. If the player picking up the "Pirate" archetype is actually a Navy Enlistee then just change the name to reflect that. Mechanically it can stay 100% the same.</p>
<p>If he then goes rogue (but not Rogue because then he would have to join the Rogue's Guild) mutineers and starts piracy all you have to do is change the name of the archetype back.</p>If you are houseruling that mechanics equal in world definitions then all you have to do is houserule different names that you prefer. If the player picking up the "Pirate" archetype is actually a Navy Enlistee then just change the name to reflect that. Mechanically it can stay 100% the same.
If he then goes rogue (but not Rogue because then he would have to join the Rogue's Guild) mutineers and starts piracy all you have to do is change the name of the archetype back.Malk_Content2018-06-25T05:39:19ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Paradozenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#122018-06-25T05:10:35Z2018-06-25T05:10:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Yolande d'Bar wrote:</div><blockquote>(In my campaign, I play classes as distinct trades, so that everyone in-world knows and reacts to, for instance, the difference between a paladin and a ranger. A multi-classed character would probably need to belong to multiple guilds somehow to advance.)</blockquote><p>If that is the case, I'd run it as the same difference as a pirate with just the dedication feats or a pirate with 10 class feats from the pirate archetype (assuming there are 10 of them). It shows how committed you are, a sign of rank. If all you have is the background, then you have a low rank on your ship. You can try to fight alongside others, but will be slower than your peers and more likely to fall in battle. This means you wouldn't be sent into the thick of things very quick, you'd be left doing some support, managing the more mundane tasks of the boat.
<p>Pick up pirate dedication and now you are faster and more agile. You are a combatant now, and are expected to defend the ship and even board other ships and attack. You have more respect and your rank as a pirate has increased.</p>
<p>Pick up boarding action, and now you are the front line. First to board the enemy ship and go on the offensive. As a result you are respected and trusted more, and have a higher rank. More respect.</p>
<p>Now you can be a pirate without the pirate background, but that means you were an outsider. You were not born into this, you took it up. You have a little less experience than anyone who was, so there are a couple benefits you must pick up the hard way, and in exchange you have a slightly broader set of experiences to apply to the situation, ones that could be to your advantage.</p>
<p>Under this, someone with the most experience adventuring as a pirate would likely be the captain, assuming they were ambitious enough to rise through the ranks. Thus the person with the most feats would lead. This feels appropriate.</p>
<p>That is how I would run it if I ran games where classes and archetypes were observable. Full disclosure: I don't, I am just guessing at how I would justify these archetypes and setup NPCs if I wanted them to all have the same archetype (and felt like building each one with PC rules).</p>Yolande d'Bar wrote:(In my campaign, I play classes as distinct trades, so that everyone in-world knows and reacts to, for instance, the difference between a paladin and a ranger. A multi-classed character would probably need to belong to multiple guilds somehow to advance.)
If that is the case, I'd run it as the same difference as a pirate with just the dedication feats or a pirate with 10 class feats from the pirate archetype (assuming there are 10 of them). It shows how committed you are,...Paradozen2018-06-25T05:10:35ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Deadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#112018-06-25T04:46:07Z2018-06-25T04:46:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Milo v3 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Yolande d'Bar wrote:</div><blockquote>(Also, I trust you on this but what prevents someone from taking the archetype feat at 1st level?) </blockquote>They're level 2 feats at minimum. Can't take feats that are higher level than you. </blockquote><p>We actually don't know that. The example ones are but I don't believe it's been stated as a hard and fast rule.Milo v3 wrote:Yolande d'Bar wrote:(Also, I trust you on this but what prevents someone from taking the archetype feat at 1st level?)
They're level 2 feats at minimum. Can't take feats that are higher level than you. We actually don't know that. The example ones are but I don't believe it's been stated as a hard and fast rule.Deadmanwalking2018-06-25T04:46:07ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion: Backgrounds and Archetypes: What's the Difference?Milo v3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v7k8?Backgrounds-and-Archetypes-Whats-the-Difference#102018-06-25T18:34:38Z2018-06-25T04:31:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Yolande d'Bar wrote:</div><blockquote>(Also, I trust you on this but what prevents someone from taking the archetype feat at 1st level?) </blockquote><p>They're level 2 feats at minimum. Can't take feats that are higher level than you.Yolande d'Bar wrote:(Also, I trust you on this but what prevents someone from taking the archetype feat at 1st level?)
They're level 2 feats at minimum. Can't take feats that are higher level than you.Milo v32018-06-25T04:31:03Z