I have players (and one in particular) who are so cautious that they do this at every door
Now my problem is that it seems like the writers do not assume that anyone does this because it is not really said what the inhabitants of a room are doing (the living dungeon idea).
This means I have difficulty setting a potential DC.
So there is +5 to the DC for the door and +1 for every 10 feet
Walking is Dc10 but hearing a conversation is DC0
That suggests if you listen at the door and someone is talking in the other room a moderately skilled perception user will almost certainly succeed
Is this how this is supposed to be managed
Does anyone else have players who listen at every door ?
I think most players listen at doors when they're exploring, at least mine always have. To me, it's not just a question of whether they hear something, but can they make out anything useful. A DC 10 Perception check might let them hear some sort of sound, e.g., faint voices, footsteps on a creaky floor, etc., but not much else. For any sort of details, such as snippets of conversation or to determine there's more than one set of footsteps, I require at least a 15. If they get 20 or above they can hear the entire conversation, get a sense of roughly how many creatures' footsteps and how heavy they are, etc.
Why wouldn't you stop to check at every doorway in a hostile environment? - that's just common sense. I do it when I play and expect my players to do so. SWAT don't just stroll through doorways...
I'll decide what the critters are doing depending on what else has been happening and, in much the same way as Seems, the more they beat the DC the more info they get. (the other day my party really aced a perception check opposed by stealth - the bad guys knew they were coming - and they overheard the bad guys whispering to each other to "get in position, they should be near by now").
So yeah, it should be easy to hear someone talking the other-side of a door.
Ok I get that it is a common tactic
My point was more that it is never made particularly clear what potential things they could be hearing - obviously due to space restrictions
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You could use the Knowledge mechanic for identifying monsters. Set the DC, then for every 5 they beat it by they get a useful piece of information. Maybe it's a topic of conversation or its tone. Maybe it's the number of creatures. Maybe it's the type of creatures based on their movement. Maybe it's even rough locations for some of them.
Are they intelligent and/or organized?
What would happen if you suddenly heard your dog fighting something in your house?
What would happen on a military base if the gate is attacked? Or if anyone within the perimeter is attacked?
Once the state of alarm is raised in an area, they will probably hear only 1 of 2 things.
1. Sounds of the inhabitants organizing a response. Marching, orders, etc.
2. Nothing. Enemies are sneaking around looking for PCs or lying in wait. Opposed checks.
I find it very unlikely that a "dungeon" with doors to listen at would not really fall into the above two categories. Maybe if they had really long hallways, or there was another major distraction that would allow the sounds of combat to go unnoticed.
It is still useful to listen at doors. but like some of the examples provided, in most cases you are going to hear things like:
"They're coming! Hide!"
"We need a few men to secure each tunnel / hallway."
or random sounds like snoring or animal sounds. Maybe every now and then you find drunken enemies in an argument.
Reward players who do this by allowing them to avoid ambushes and set up ambushes for their opponent.
Punish players with...idk. Booby traps? Make the door a living door? put a pit in front of it? Cause a big loud sound that might deafen someone? Did they stealth up to the door? Have enemies on the other side of it listening for them.
Yeah, as a fan of the living dungeon the "listen at the door" attempts will only work a couple of times. After that, the residents are probably aware of an attacked based on the sounds of combat they've previously overheard. At that point:
1) Alarms should be ringing if they have them
2) Someone should be going through the dungeon to alert the residents
3) Other than that individual, the rest should be preparing for combat and attempting to be as quiet as possible for tactical reasons. Not to say that less intelligent wont talk to one another.
Also, listening at the door shouldn't necessarily give them much information.
You listen at the door, you hear two voices speaking in Orcish. You open the door? Inside you find 10 Orcs, with the two "highest ranking" Orcs chatting about how they want to eat you.
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You have the DC down and there are some good ideas here on what they could hear.
But the liberal use of perception goes both way. It is far more work but the enemies can also hear the PCs. What is the stealth check of the group moving up to the door to listen at it, how far away was the last group they fought?
The last time I played a scenario that was designed to use enemy perception, I wrote down the perception penalties between rooms (40 ft and two right hand corners: 4+5+5=+14) to make looking up the DC fast. I then checked against the enemy taking ten on the perception to make it easy. Lastly every enemy had a personality that reflects how they respond to the sound of combat; figher holds a bottleneck with a crossbow, rogue sneaks the long way around to get behind the group, the boss mage casts mage armor then resumes his study trusting the second in command to deal with any threats. The GM knows the enemy is overmatched but the enemy doesn't know this, the guards might send out the rookie to drive off 'those damned goblins'.
By this logic, how come every dungeon crawl doesn't devolve into a fight at the beginning? Fights are really loud and would be clearly audible through a door. People seeing fights would raise an alarm.
You should be fighting every combatant inside of a dungeon, including the boss, all at once, within the first 5 minutes
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By this logic, how come every dungeon crawl doesn't devolve into a fight at the beginning? Fights are really loud and would be clearly audible through a door. People seeing fights would raise an alarm.
You should be fighting every combatant inside of a dungeon, including the boss, all at once, within the first 5 minutes
I mean, I absolutely agree.
But such a fight would probably cause the PCs to lose. So for story reasons, as a GM, I don't do that. Enemies turtle up and fortify their positions, or if they're alone they might fall back to group together. It makes some fights more challenging, but isn't the whole dungeon coming down on the PCs heads at once (which it really ought to, but again I want the PCs to win - and also be challenged).
Punish players with...idk. Booby traps? Make the door a living door? put a pit in front of it? Cause a big loud sound that might deafen someone? Did they stealth up to the door? Have enemies on the other side of it listening for them.
Obvious tradeoff is the party are moving slower -
Buffs run out sooner
Enemies have more time to get together / prepare
Enemies pack up and flee, taking most of their loot with them
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I agree with a lot of people here, saying that allowing this tactic is a good idea, but as the dungeon's occupants become increasingly aware of the threat, the PC's become less and less likely to simply hear a casual conversation or patrolling guard, and like DM Livgin said, alert occupants would be making their own Perception checks vs. the PC's.
One thing I'd add is that a guard standing still, with his bow trained on the door wouldn't be making any noise; he isn't moving or speaking, and has total concealment from the PC's. He shouldn't need to roll Stealth vs. the PCs' Perception checks anymore than the inanimate bench next to him should. I suppose if he were right next to the door, and the PC's made a phenomenal Perception check, they might hear him breathing, but anything beyond 5' away should remove that possibility (who keeps hiring all these asthmatic guards?). So, unless the PC's arrive and perform their Perception checks the moment the occupants on the other side of the door begin to hide or speak about their plans to ambush, they shouldn't be able to make a Perception check to know that there are 5 guards with bows trained on the door in the room beyond.
This encourages and rewards cautious PC's for stopping to listen before opening a door, but eliminates their ability to do it for every friggen room in the dungeon. If you really want to stop them from abusing this tactic, adding ambient noises, such as running water, barking guard dogs, noisy machinery, etc. could help muffle any noises made by the occupants on the other side of doors. Also, a simple Ghost Sound could mislead eavesdroppers, as could an Illusory Wall at the end of a hallway, with the Wizard on the other side, ready to throw Lightning Bolts through the illusion as the PC's slowly approach their next "door". Magic Mouth can be put on a door, designed to announce whenever a creature approaches from the side of the door the PC's are likely to come from. A magic item called Parley Ward is designed litterally to prevent eavesdropping. It's a bit expensive, but maybe the BBEG sprung some extra gp to hold all his evil-plans meetings.
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By this logic, how come every dungeon crawl doesn't devolve into a fight at the beginning? Fights are really loud and would be clearly audible through a door. People seeing fights would raise an alarm.
You should be fighting every combatant inside of a dungeon, including the boss, all at once, within the first 5 minutes
This depends entirely on the occupants of the compound.
Are they thieves? Maybe some thieves run down to attack the players. Other thieves go try to steal from the coffers.
Are the Evil? Maybe some of them are taking advantage of the chaos to kill rivals or further their own plans.
Are they dumb? Maybe they are just not able to mount an effective resistance.
Are they scared? Maybe some run away.
Are they lazy? Maybe some just figure that someone else will make the PCs go away.
Do the enemies have perfect information? Let's say that there is an attack the perimeter of a military encampment. Does literally every single soldier turn and bee line it to the this point? No. This is not effective. Those in the immediate vicinity will raise alarm that there is an attack. Some will rush to their aid. Others will leave to spread the information and begin to organize a response. The enemies likely aren't even sure how many people are attacking them when the word first spreads. Do they have back up? Yeah, 4 people just kicked down the door and started murdering people. This, obviously, caught you off guard. What else don't you know about? Did someone sneak in? What are they after? How many areas hold valuable resources? Are they trying to release a prisoner? Are they trying to steal money? Are they trying to stop a ritual? Are they trying to steal a valuable object? Are they trying to reach a treasure first? Maybe they're just crazy?
Depending on the specifics, I think that an organized and cohesive group would set up a center of operations (if necessary) and begin securing their structure. This requires man power. If 4 people just started attacking you, and you need to check all the tunnels, how many men do you send? Do you send 1 alone? What if he runs into another 4 people and they kill him? Send 4? How big is your dungeon? Depending on the size of the dungeon, a portion of it may only have a few men simply because they can't effectively defend that much space against an unknown threat (or a known threat of a particular strength.)
Depending on the specific scenario, it is possible that literally everyone will come to the aid. I just don't think this is a common outcome. If you want this to happen, plan accordingly. Did the PCs track the enemies back to a dungeon and start murdering everybody? Have all the enemies rush them and build the encounter appropriately.
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In a more realistic game, these encounters would be very spread out and compounds would be HUGE. Rooms with creatures may be maps apart. But in order to consolidate the maps and story, we use a smaller approximation of a dungeon. We keep the pacing realistic by not throwing every creature toward the first fight just as if the creatures were far apart to begin with.
By this logic, how come every dungeon crawl doesn't devolve into a fight at the beginning? Fights are really loud and would be clearly audible through a door. People seeing fights would raise an alarm.
You should be fighting every combatant inside of a dungeon, including the boss, all at once, within the first 5 minutes
This depends entirely on the occupants of the compound.
Are they thieves? Maybe some thieves run down to attack the players. Other thieves go try to steal from the coffers.
Are the Evil? Maybe some of them are taking advantage of the chaos to kill rivals or further their own plans.
Are they dumb? Maybe they are just not able to mount an effective resistance.
Are they scared? Maybe some run away.
Are they lazy? Maybe some just figure that someone else will make the PCs go away.
Do the enemies have perfect information? Let's say that there is an attack the perimeter of a military encampment. Does literally every single soldier turn and bee line it to the this point? No. This is not effective. Those in the immediate vicinity will raise alarm that there is an attack. Some will rush to their aid. Others will leave to spread the information and begin to organize a response. The enemies likely aren't even sure how many people are attacking them when the word first spreads. Do they have back up? Yeah, 4 people just kicked down the door and started murdering people. This, obviously, caught you off guard. What else don't you know about? Did someone sneak in? What are they after? How many areas hold valuable resources? Are they trying to release a prisoner? Are they trying to steal money? Are they trying to stop a ritual? Are they trying to steal a valuable object? Are they trying to reach a treasure first? Maybe they're just crazy?
Depending on the specifics, I think that an organized and cohesive group would set up a center of operations (if necessary) and begin securing their structure. This requires man power. If 4 people just started...
Maybe some do all of that early stuff you talked about but you'd still end up fighting most of the dungeon. Do you have a motivation for each of the grunts such that you know which would take these side actions? Are you only talking about the named NPCs?
Just looked at an actual AP I'm running with an enemy camp. The camp is an oval but let's call it roughly 100ft by 100ft. There are 14 characters inside the gates. Every single one of them is a combatant. There are no cooks or maids or the like.
Of those 11 are stated as "fight to the death". The others aren't going to run away because what would their own people do to them if they ran from a fight? Unless they happen to be the last ones left, in which case the party still would have to deal with them for several rounds.
I think most people would deal with the problem at hand. There's 4 guys murdering people so that's what has to be immediately dealt with as quickly as possible. Splitting your force to deal with a "possible" side incursion from some possible alternate location doesn't make sense.
Me and my crew would all go and we would all kill the people I can see, then we'll spread out and look for more.
This is even a tactic in real life and in media. "I'll attack the front while you sneak in from the back". This works because it is understood that when you attack the front, people focus on the front.
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Doors? Why would you enter through a door? It's obvious the enemies are going to expect you to go through the door so they're defenses will be assuming that. Blast through the wall so you're on the other side of those makeshift barricades!
You make life complicated for your GM, don't you?
My players do it, and I check every door also as a player. It makes sense if you're in a dangerous area. As a GM I can easily decide what's going on. Sometimes they're just talking. Maybe they're just standing around. One time I had the bad guys eating dinner.
As why for one fight doesn't attract other fights I have two responses.
Many GM's don't take the perception DC's into account, and they don't want to overwhelm the party.
For myself I do the perception checks at time. The DC to listen through doors or walls starts at a -8 IIRC. You then have to include distance. If bad guys are distracted or that could be another -5. So there are cases where they won't notice the battle.
If they can make the perception check sometimes I have them arrive in the middle of the fight.
PS:I've also had bad guys run away. If they escape they may tell other bad guys about the PC's abilities based on what they saw.
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I agree with a lot of people here, saying that allowing this tactic is a good idea, but as the dungeon's occupants become increasingly aware of the threat, the PC's become less and less likely to simply hear a casual conversation or patrolling guard, and like DM Livgin said, alert occupants would be making their own Perception checks vs. the PC's.
One thing I'd add is that a guard standing still, with his bow trained on the door wouldn't be making any noise; he isn't moving or speaking, and has total concealment from the PC's. He shouldn't need to roll Stealth vs. the PCs' Perception checks anymore than the inanimate bench next to him should. I suppose if he were right next to the door, and the PC's made a phenomenal Perception check, they might hear him breathing, but anything beyond 5' away should remove that possibility (who keeps hiring all these asthmatic guards?). So, unless the PC's arrive and perform their Perception checks the moment the occupants on the other side of the door begin to hide or speak about their plans to ambush, they shouldn't be able to make a Perception check to know that there are 5 guards with bows trained on the door in the room beyond.
This encourages and rewards cautious PC's for stopping to listen before opening a door, but eliminates their ability to do it for every friggen room in the dungeon. If you really want to stop them from abusing this tactic, adding ambient noises, such as running water, barking guard dogs, noisy machinery, etc. could help muffle any noises made by the occupants on the other side of doors. Also, a simple Ghost Sound could mislead eavesdroppers, as could an Illusory Wall at the end of a hallway, with the Wizard on the other side, ready to throw Lightning Bolts through the illusion as the PC's slowly approach their next "door". Magic Mouth can be put on a door, designed to announce whenever a creature approaches from the side of the door the PC's are likely to come from. A magic item called...
I mostly agree, but I disgree on standing still meaning no stealth check is needed. If that was the case an invisble opponent in the same room would not need a stealth check since you can't see them, and they aren't moving.
They get a massive +40 to the stealth check, but they still need a check.
PS: As an aside I don't see how an invisible opponent in the same room gets a +20, and someone on the other side of a door gets less than a +20.
Doors? Why would you enter through a door? It's obvious the enemies are going to expect you to go through the door so they're defenses will be assuming that. Blast through the wall so you're on the other side of those makeshift barricades!You make life complicated for your GM, don't you?
Is there any other way to play? : D
By this logic, how come every dungeon crawl doesn't devolve into a fight at the beginning? Fights are really loud and would be clearly audible through a door. People seeing fights would raise an alarm.
You should be fighting every combatant inside of a dungeon, including the boss, all at once, within the first 5 minutes
Sometimes this happens and it can be awesome to have waves of combatants coming at you. Other times, there's reasons why the monsters stay put, lay ambushes, or just retreat.
It's pretty easy to calculate ahead of time what their range of perception is for combat, as other posters have noted, making use of the take ten mechanic.
I worry a lot more when we make a loud noise* and all the bad guys don't come swarming in. That often means they heard us and have set traps, taken tactical positions, and prepared to lay waste to the first schmuck PC that steps through the door.
*this is the big drawback to firearms
Why wouldn't you stop to check at every doorway in a hostile environment? - that's just common sense. I do it when I play and expect my players to do so. SWAT don't just stroll through doorways...
I'll decide what the critters are doing depending on what else has been happening and, in much the same way as Seems, the more they beat the DC the more info they get. (the other day my party really aced a perception check opposed by stealth - the bad guys knew they were coming - and they overheard the bad guys whispering to each other to "get in position, they should be near by now").
So yeah, it should be easy to hear someone talking the other-side of a door.
What about those all barbarian squads where everyone has 7 int 10 wis and 7 cha? They're loud and obnoxious and never listen to doors, they break them.
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One thing I'd add is that a guard standing still, with his bow trained on the door wouldn't be making any noise; he isn't moving or speaking, and has total concealment from the PC's. He shouldn't need to roll Stealth vs. the PCs' Perception checks anymore than the inanimate bench next to him should. I suppose if he were right next to the door, and the PC's made a phenomenal Perception check, they might hear him breathing, but anything beyond 5' away should remove that possibility (who keeps hiring all these asthmatic guards?).I mostly agree, but I disgree on standing still meaning no stealth check is needed. If that was the case an invisble opponent in the same room would not need a stealth check since you can't see them, and they aren't moving.
They get a massive +40 to the stealth check, but they still need a check.
PS: As an aside I don't see how an invisible opponent in the same room gets a +20, and someone on the other side of a door gets less than a +20.
Yeah, I once had a level 14 character with a +31 Perception modifier, which means on an average roll of 41 I could hear a bow being drawn on the other side of a door, 10ft away, while I was asleep (DC = 25 bow draw + 5 door + 10 sleeping + 1 distance = 41). And I had a 16.5% chance (about a 1 in 6) of spotting an invisible, umoving character with a Stealth modifier of +0*. And that's without using spells to temporarily increase perception.
Characters with very high modifiers can reasonably expect to achieve some pretty incredible things. It's part of the fun of investing in skills. In those cases you'd want to use some of the other suggestions in this thread for ways to make listening at doors useful without necessarily giving them all the information. Treating Perception like Knowedge and giving an extra bit of info for every 5 by which they beat the DC sounds like a great way to to it. Sure, you hear someone breathing behind the door, but do you know if they are ready for you vs asleep? If you can tell they are ready for you, do you know they are preparing a ranged weapon vs a spell or a melee charge?
And the more I think about it, the more I agree stealth bonuses for invisibility should be smaller and listening through doors and walls should be harder.
* Use this site, "output (d20+31) - (d20+40)", viewing "At Least" and looking for "0", eg results where my check matches or exceeds theirs.
Maybe some do all of that early stuff you talked about but you'd still end up fighting most of the dungeon. Do you have a motivation for each of the grunts such that you know which would take these side actions? Are you only talking about the named NPCs?
Just looked at an actual AP I'm running with an enemy camp. The camp is an oval but let's call it roughly 100ft by 100ft. There are 14 characters inside the gates. Every single one of them is a combatant. There are no cooks or maids or the like.
Of those 11 are stated as "fight to the death". The others aren't going to run away because what would their own people do to them if they ran from a fight? Unless they happen to be the last ones left, in which case the party still would have to deal with them for several rounds.
I think most people would deal with the problem at hand. There's 4 guys murdering people so that's what has to be immediately dealt with as quickly as possible. Splitting your force to deal with a "possible" side incursion from some possible alternate location doesn't make sense.
Me and my crew would all go and we would all kill the people I can see, then we'll spread out and look for more.
This is even a tactic in real life and in media. "I'll attack the front while you sneak in from the back". This works because it is understood that when you attack the front, people focus on the front.
Yes, in that situation it makes sense for all (or most of) 11 inhabitants to immediately attack the PCs.
Do the PCs enter the camp in broad daylight and announce themselves? They should be prepared for a result.
Do they enter the camp quietly and try to take out guards? Expect reinforcements shortly.
Do they enter the camp quietly at night? Maybe some enemies don't hear the battle because they are asleep. I'm not sure what structures are in this specific example, but the base DC will be zero before distance and barriers. Depending on conditions and levels, it is possible that not everyone hears the battle immediately.
Even if every person heard the combat... how many attack the PCs immediately? were they sleeping in their armor? Are they going to don their armor?
Again... every situation is different. there are scenarios where all enemies will immediately respond. In my last post, I was thinking of extremely large environments like castles, the encampment of an army, or very large dungeon where a whole community of beings live.
If the PCs attack a structure that has potentially hundreds of hostile creatures in it, it makes sense that not every single enemy is going to drop what they are doing and figure out what the sounds of a disturbance are. Most likely because in such large environments, the sound will not be heard, the creatures won't care or won't want to get involved directly unless it is their responsibility.
In the military, my duty was air craft maintenance. While on deployment, I was part of the designated task force to perform drills on defending our planes from attack. The scenario was basically if someone walked up to one our planes, planted an explosive and then blew it up. (Our aircraft were parked at the host country's civilian air port that was a 30 minute bus ride away from the main base and we only had a few buildings. Despite having probably 50-100 personnel on site away from the base, if an air plane was attacked our rapid response was to get 5 people to 5 designated zones in a certain amount of time. (several minutes).
So, in my real life experience, if enemies attacked multimillion dollar assets, the official military response is for almost every body to run away. Within several minutes, 1 person would show up to an area (to await reinforcements, which would take forever. They would have to be radioed an alert, then get ready for combat, then get into their vehicles and drive like 20 minutes to get where we are.
This is the type of situation I am describing.
Yes, if you have like 10 friends out in the woods and they getattacked, it makes sense for them all to immediately respond and the PCs should absolutely expect all the enemies gmto respond. If someone attacked the PCs, wouldn't they all respond? the answer is typically yes.