Shaman Wild Shape. This needs to be FAQ FINALLY

[Archane]

I've been trying, trying for hours to go through this message board and you know what I've found that you need to put this under your FAQ with a clear ruling! Because you have author of the original archtype and other writters saying different stuff about this!

Wild Shape (Su)

At 6th level, a (insert animal type) shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a (insert animal type), she instead uses her druid level + 2.

Does this mean that an animal shaman only gets to transform at six or is it just a modifier and should be more ruled like this

Wild Shape (Su)

A wolf shaman’s wild shape ability is modified as such functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2. So she gains canine wild shape at Level 2 but cannot use wild shape to transform into any other creature till 6th level.

Or should it be changed to this.

Wild Shape (Su)

At 6th level, a wolf shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2.

This ability replaces Wild Shape!

[Katya]

Animal Shaman don't get the ability to wild shape until lvl 6. When they do, if they choose anything other than their animal, they are treated as being lvl 4. If they choose their animal, they are treated as level 8.

Adjust appropriately as the class levels.

You cannot wild shape at level 2 or level 4, regardless of which animal you choose.

[Snow_Tiger]

Pretty sure it stays the same (so simplified to your last example)

Edited: change "diluted" to "sure"... iPhone auto correct somehow did that...

[James Risner]

Katya wrote:

Animal Shaman don't get the ability to wild shape until lvl 6.

+1

[TGMaxMaxer]

At 2 they get the minor shifting powers. There is no way to read it to get any wildshape earlier than 4, since the modifier doesn't kick in until 6, so the base wild shape at 4 is the first option.

At 4 they get normal Wildshape, since it doesn't at any time state that it replaces the normal wildshape gained at level 4, only that at level 6 that ability is modified.

At 6, you get a boost to your totem animal, but no increase to anything else, since it still counts as level 4 for all others, and 8 for your totem animal. From then on, you are 2 levels higher for totem animals (which is pretty much useless for anything other than saurian, since at 6 you count as 8 giving you huge, and I can't remember anything but dinos that aren't magical beasts in sizes past huge), and 2 levels lower for all other forms.

[Steve Geddes]

Not every frequently asked question should be answered.

[Atarlost]

Steve Geddes wrote:

Not every frequently asked question should be answered.

But something this fundamental to how a set of archetypes works should be.

Imagine if there was ambiguity as to what level paladins god divine grace at. It would be a huge hairy deal that would need to be answered definitively. This is just as bad. Even if it's an archetype issue it's an issue with several related archetypes. I think roughly half of all the druid archetypes published.

[Cap. Darling]

No FAQs not even the OPs? That is sad, allow me to be the first:)

[Archane]

Cap. Darling wrote:

No FAQs not even the OPs? That is sad, allow me to be the first:)

Yep the only question relating to any animal Shaman is about the Eagle Shaman and how you can apply the huge template to a basic eagle for that wild shape since Paizo material had nothing for it. So thank you.

[Bizbag]

There's nothing to answer. It's an ability whose power depends on Druid level. You gain the ability at level 6. An archetype modifies the potency of the potency of the ability depending on the form you take. There's no language that changes when the ability is granted. There is no official ruling needed.

Think of it in terms of "caster level" if that helps. Your ability modifies the CL of the ability, not when you gain access to it.

[Cheapy]

Check out this thread.

[Bizbag]

Cheapy wrote:

Check out this thread.

Oh, I see the problem now. I forgot Druids got WS at 4, normally.

Still, I can't imagine they get a normal WS at 4 then the updated one at 6. That'd mean they could be a level 5 bear at 5, but then only a level 4 bear at 6. Rules generally don't work that way.

Thus, I will pose this FAQ question:

Does a Wolf Shaman gain the Wild Shape Ability at level 4 or level 6?

I believe the only interpretation that makes any sense is 6, but there you go.

[Archane]

Bizbag wrote:

There's nothing to answer. It's an ability whose power depends on Druid level. You gain the ability at level 6. An archetype modifies the potency of the potency of the ability depending on the form you take. There's no language that changes when the ability is granted. There is no official ruling needed.

Think of it in terms of "caster level" if that helps. Your ability modifies the CL of the ability, not when you gain access to it.

Then how come it doesn't say replace. How come Hero Lab gives it to you at Level 2. How come the question keeps getting asked. Why are the devs and the orginal author in conflict. The author who says that was his intent but is just his opinion so you can't take it as an official ruling.

Hence my point that it needs to be put in the FAQ and needs a definite ruling just not opinion.

Cheapy wrote:

Check out this thread.

Yes I did see that thread, I've also seen threads with the orginal author of said archtype too. Again not my point. My point being it needs to be in the FAQ. So please click that thank you. Their are way too many posts about this question and while I did start looking for the answer by doing that. I found so much conflict about it that I feel it needs to be in the FAQ for an offical ruling.

[Nefreet]

Yes, let's go with the FAQ thread that was already started back in June. The Design Team has stated that having multiple FAQ threads with only a few hits each does nothing, but one thread with lots of hits (and discussion) is the best way to go.

As someone who originally thought it was ambiguous and sided with the idea that Shamans gained Wildshape at 4th level, the discussions since have convinced me they do not gain it until 6th.

[Cheapy]

My goal with the thread was to get it in the FAQ as well, not to debate it again. Plus, it has a headstart :)

[blahpers]

FAQ'd Cheapy's thread.

[Bizbag]

Quote:

Then how come it doesn't say replace. How come Hero Lab gives it to you at Level 2. How come the question keeps getting asked. Why are the devs and the orginal author in conflict. The author who says that was his intent but is just his opinion so you can't take it as an official ruling.

As noted in my second post above, I misread the ability and forgot that ordinary Druids gain WS at 4, so I agree there is an ambiguity.

The answer to your second question, if it helps, is that it does not say "replace" because they do not use that language when they modify existing abilities (it's still an ability called Wild Shape and works with feats that modify such).

[Xaratherus]

And just to call it out: HeroLab, while an excellent program and licensed to use Paizo's source material, is not made by Paizo.

When a conflict arises between the apparent RAW and what HeroLab allows, HeroLab is not valid evidence that the apparent RAW is incorrect.

[HangarFlying]

Also, having someone swear at me doesn't endear me to his cause.

[James Risner]

Archane wrote:

Then how come it doesn't say replace. How come Hero Lab gives it to you at Level 2. How come the question keeps getting asked.

Some people think Pistoleros can get Double Dex to Damage because Pistol Training doesn't say it replaces Gun Training (but Paizo has repeatively said they don't stack and if you build one like this for PFS you won't get a rebuild if they errata or FAQ it into explicitly not working because it was obvious.)

Hero Lab folks are very conservative and they don't change their opinion on the matter without evidence from Paizo. This question has been asked by them to Paizo with no official answer so no change. So don't take how HL works as an endorsement. It is publicly their opinion without confirmation (yes they have said this.)

The question keeps coming up because some folk like to bend the rules in an exploitative way. Like the people who do Double Dex to Damage because Pistol Training doesn't say it replaces Gun Training. It does. They know it does. But they do it anyway because the rules don't explicitly say it doesn't. They take advantage of the fact the rules are written by humans who would like us to think, occasionally.

[Archane]

HangarFlying wrote:

Also, having someone swear at me doesn't endear me to his cause.

Who, what, where? When I said Damn question... that's swearing at you...

Xaratherus wrote:

And just to call it out: HeroLab, while an excellent program and licensed to use Paizo's source material, is not made by Paizo.

When a conflict arises between the apparent RAW and what HeroLab allows, HeroLab is not valid evidence that the apparent RAW is incorrect.

I know that, but it still causes confusion.

Also to play Devils Advocate then. Why should I listen to you over the program that helps me create my characters quickly and efficently and seems to have all the rules down in it?

Cheapy wrote:

My goal with the thread was to get it in the FAQ as well, not to debate it again. Plus, it has a headstart :)

I already clicked that, but I figured a more clear thread that it needs to be FAQ rather then trying to start the debate again... which people seem to be just saying it works this way. Not that it should be FAQ which was my point but people keep saying no it works this way. Again not the point of the thread.

The point is it should be in the FAQ period. But yes I did hit the FAQ part Cheapy on your thread.

Again the point of the thread is to help point out it should be FAQ because it's just all opinions everywhere no solid evidence and again I know the author said his intent and once again he said that's his opinion and can't be taken as a ruling.

[Jessica Price]

Removed a post. Please revisit the messageboard rules.

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9rqp

Druid, Animal Shamans: At what class level do these archetypes gain wild shape?

The animal shaman archetypes for the druid class do not gain wild shape until class level 6.

(The other druid archetypes in this book use clearer phrasing to explain that the character doesn't gain the ability until level 6, and the animal shamans should also use that language. Furthermore, the descriptions of the modified wild shape class ability should include "This ability replaces wild shape.")

[Xaratherus]

Woot! New FAQ! Thanks PDT! :)