Misfortune reroll: Clarification needed...


Rules Questions


Hi all,
I don't understand one thing:

"At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed."

Frankly, based on the wording, this is quite silly:

a) In any game I have played, the DM *never* tells you the result of his die rolls and usually rolls behind a DM screen...only tells you whether or not something affects your opponent...so how you understand if you WANT it to be re-rolled or not?

b) Is it to be understood as a "intermediate" effect, like..."The DM rolls X, you ask what was rolled -but not the end result- and ask for a re-roll"?

Or I have misunderstood this ability completely...what means "before the results of the roll are revealed"??

Thanks,
Skarm

P.S.: Potentially the character could use also on himself to re-roll his dice rolls 1 per day??


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Your DM is doing things wrong. For your ability (and many other similar abilities in Pathfinder) to work, he needs to tell you what his adjusted roll is before saying whether it succeeded or failed so that you have the chance to use your ability. Even if the adjusted roll itself reveals the result (for example, one of his monsters is attacking your character and you know your own character's AC), the delay is needed to permit such abilities to be used.

He also needs to pause between the time that players tell him what they rolled and he rules it a success or failure, for similar reasons.


Usually you use it when your GM seems happy all of a sudden and tries to reroll to magically "confirm " a d20 that may or may not have rolled a 20.

You also can use it when your friend swears loudly when making a spellcraft check on a craft woundous item roll.


David knott 242 wrote:

Your DM is doing things wrong. For your ability (and many other similar abilities in Pathfinder) to work, he needs to tell you what his adjusted roll is before saying whether it succeeded or failed so that you have the chance to use your ability. Even if the adjusted roll itself reveals the result (for example, one of his monsters is attacking your character and you know your own character's AC), the delay is needed to permit such abilities to be used.

He also needs to pause between the time that players tell him what they rolled and he rules it a success or failure, for similar reasons.

Well...to be honest, I have never played with a character with this ability, but maybe I'll simply ask if I play with one of these builds!

So the point is...you are told what is the result...DECIDE if reroll...
and then he tells you success or failure, right?

In this way the ability makes much more sense, thanks...

Thanks,
Skarm


David knott 242 wrote:
Your DM is doing things wrong. For your ability (and many other similar abilities in Pathfinder) to work, he needs to tell you what his adjusted roll is before saying whether it succeeded or failed so that you have the chance to use your ability.

Er, no - the GM has no reason to tell you the adjusted roll. The GM should tell the player the unmodified roll when the occasion makes sense for a reroll (or, better yet, simply roll such things openly).

As normal for those issues, you should talk to your GM about it. Tell him in what situations you're likely to want to reroll: Critical hits and saving throws are the norm, but possibly also some skill rolls like perception when you're stealthing, or stealth to hide from the party.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Does your DM keep track of your character's AC, including all circumstantial modifiers? He would have to do that in order to roll an attack against your PC and then tell you whether he hit or missed without telling you the adjusted roll.

It is much easier for him to ask, "Does a 24 hit your AC?"


Guys...just to clarify:

In general I play in PFS, so the GM changes, but I was puzzled because most DMs tended to roll secretly and tell you what happens...which is fine, but left me with the doubt of "how to deal" with this ability.

Now, after your explanations it is clear:

When I play with a character with an ability like this, I should ask the unmodified roll result and then ask for a re-roll based on that.

Since this character is also a poisoner, I'd probably ask for the opponent's Save die rolls... XD ...since I get that a reroll for the worse would be a -5 to the die.

And yes...I will probably ask for saving throws and critical hits as well... :)
Skarm


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I am very surprised that PFS GMs would do that, since they should be very familiar with reroll powers.


David knott 242 wrote:

I am very surprised that PFS GMs would do that, since they should be very familiar with reroll powers.

Well...not knowing the result is more immersive...I guess is managed in this way because of that.

However, it is not a problem...now I know how to do:

If and when I play with a build with this power, I'll just tell the GM and ask if he could tell me the unmodified result in some specific circumstances...

...and...wow...after this clarification this power is amazing!! :P
Skarm


Skarm wrote:

Guys...just to clarify:

In general I play in PFS, so the GM changes, but I was puzzled because most DMs tended to roll secretly and tell you what happens...which is fine, but left me with the doubt of "how to deal" with this ability.

Now, after your explanations it is clear:

When I play with a character with an ability like this, I should ask the unmodified roll result and then ask for a re-roll based on that.

Since this character is also a poisoner, I'd probably ask for the opponent's Save die rolls... XD ...since I get that a reroll for the worse would be a -5 to the die.

And yes...I will probably ask for saving throws and critical hits as well... :)
Skarm

Isn't it against pfs rules for the GM to roll in secret since that falls under the rules of Changing an encounter on how its suppose to happen.


Please don't assume we know what ability you are referring to. There are multiple 'misfortune' abilities in the game.

@David Knott 242: There is nothing in the rules demanding that a DM have to operate in the way you suggest.

Other re-roll powers don't function the same way as this one.

Reading this one as is: You are better of using it on yourself or allies.

Grand Lodge

doomman47 wrote:
Isn't it against pfs rules for the GM to roll in secret since that falls under the rules of Changing an encounter on how its suppose to happen.

To my knowledge, no, it is not illegal to use a screen. Many gm's do.

My problem is that it erodes trust. If people think the gm is cheating, and that gm is using a screen, they can only conjecture. And that leads down dark paths.


doomman47 wrote:
Skarm wrote:

Guys...just to clarify:

In general I play in PFS, so the GM changes, but I was puzzled because most DMs tended to roll secretly and tell you what happens...which is fine, but left me with the doubt of "how to deal" with this ability.

Now, after your explanations it is clear:

When I play with a character with an ability like this, I should ask the unmodified roll result and then ask for a re-roll based on that.

Since this character is also a poisoner, I'd probably ask for the opponent's Save die rolls... XD ...since I get that a reroll for the worse would be a -5 to the die.

And yes...I will probably ask for saving throws and critical hits as well... :)
Skarm

Isn't it against pfs rules for the GM to roll in secret since that falls under the rules of Changing an encounter on how its suppose to happen.

In what way is rolling behind a screen changing the encounter?

Or do you default assume a GM who does so is cheating?


I asked because I thought that keeping the result secret was the standard practice, guys...just if that was how rolls are meant to be rolled I didn't understand how one could make this ability useful:

Asking for a reroll "blindly" makes no sense...but it does make sense if you know the roll itself was very high or very roll as, even without modifiers, you can guess it will lead to success or failure.

I like the "immersive play" and when I was DMing D&D 2nd edition and 3rd edition I was doong it as well but at the time reroll powers were unheard of...

Skarm


Rub-Eta wrote:

Please don't assume we know what ability you are referring to. There are multiple 'misfortune' abilities in the game.

The fact there's a direct quote of the ability and it's wording kind of helped narrow it down.


dragonhunterq wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Skarm wrote:

Guys...just to clarify:

In general I play in PFS, so the GM changes, but I was puzzled because most DMs tended to roll secretly and tell you what happens...which is fine, but left me with the doubt of "how to deal" with this ability.

Now, after your explanations it is clear:

When I play with a character with an ability like this, I should ask the unmodified roll result and then ask for a re-roll based on that.

Since this character is also a poisoner, I'd probably ask for the opponent's Save die rolls... XD ...since I get that a reroll for the worse would be a -5 to the die.

And yes...I will probably ask for saving throws and critical hits as well... :)
Skarm

Isn't it against pfs rules for the GM to roll in secret since that falls under the rules of Changing an encounter on how its suppose to happen.

In what way is rolling behind a screen changing the encounter?

Or do you default assume a GM who does so is cheating?

Because a GM who uses a screen can fudge rolls weather that be for the better or worse of the party and that can inherently change how an encounter plays out, and if they aren't going to be fudging rolls they have no need for a screen in the 1st place. I'm perfectly fine with GM's fudging rolls for the sake of better story telling but that's against pfs rules.

The Exchange

I GM a lot, particularly in PFS. And I do roll in secret a lot. Because unfortunately some players can't help but metagame and run away when they see an enemy pass a DC23 Will save with a 6 on the die. Or run in fearlessly when they see an 18 on the die doesn't hit the wizard. Reroll powers are some of the most immersion-breaking powers so I try to smooth things out.

I handle reroll powers by asking "does anyone have any reroll powers" before the game starts. If they do (particularly misfortune since it gets used many times during the game) I lay out the standards ahead of time. "Here's the deal. I'm mostly going to be rolling in secret. You can give me fixed conditions like 'If an enemy's attack roll is a critical threat' or 'If an enemy rolls above 12 on the die for a saving throw' and I'll just tell you when your reroll was used. Otherwise you can just ask me about particular rolls when you think it's crisis time. If you take the second option, don't be annoying about it."


doomman47 wrote:
... and if they aren't going to be fudging rolls they have no need for a screen in the 1st place. I'm perfectly fine with GM's fudging rolls for the sake of better story telling but that's against pfs rules.

There's plenty of legitimate reasons to use a screen; to shield an open monster manual or bestiary page so as not to spoil an encounter, to block an (inadvertant) look at a location map which might reveal secret doors or trap locations, or even, yes, to shield dice rolls so players don't calculate to hit bonuses or other modifiers they have no legitimate way of knowing ("Uh, he rolled a 3 and still hit me. We need to run.""). There's no cheating involved.

To the OP, I think most GMs do things the way you describe because they are trying to be timely and efficient and reroll powers are still uncommon. I am sure if you let them know at the start they will understand if they forget and you ask to use your power if they didn't give you a fair amount of time.

The Exchange

doomman, there is no rule against a PFS GM rolling in secret. (PFS VL here.)

PFS operates mostly on the honor system. The GM assumes players aren't cheating and the players assume the GM isn't cheating.

And anyway:
A GM can do way more damage by lying about what's on the page than what's on the die. "Nope, 32 does not hit his AC." No way for a player to verify that unless the player is cheating by reading the scenario before playing.


I haven't played much PFS but I've never cared when they all used a screen. I know they have things we shouldn't see, die results being lowest on the list.

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