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The PaizoCon banquet was streamed on Twitch, and there were a bunch of spoilers. There's the link for the start of the PF2 previews section!
I'm going to type up some highlights for folks, 'cuz you're nice people. The previews are centered around the iconic gnome Druid.
First of all, gnomes. It's worth noting that there's some blank space at the end of the feats section. I doubt they're going to waste space like that in the final version, so I'd expect more options when we get to the final version!
Gnomes get the following choices of ancestry feats available at level 1:
Animal Accomplice (a familiar), Animal Speaker, Discerning Smell, Fey Fellowship, First World Magic (cantrips), Illusion Sense, Obsessive (extra lore skill), Weapon Familiarity (Gnome)
Gnomes get the following choices of ancestry feats available at level 5, because they require a previous ancestry feat:
Animal Whisperer (requiring Animal Speaker), and Weapon Innovator (requiring Weapon Familiarity (Gnome))
Bonus languages are still in the game, as there's a section for that listed in the gnome ancestry page.
Being a forlorn elf is an ancestry feat elves can take.
The complete background list is: Acolyte, Acrobat, Animal Whisperer, Barkeep, Blacksmith, Criminal, Entertainer, Farmhand, Gladiator, Hunter, Laborer, Merchant, Noble, Nomad, Sailor, Scholar, Scout, Street Urchin, Warrior. Nomad gives you Assurance in Survival, and Lore (Forest).
Druid gets four skills starting at trained from class: Crafting (I think), Nature, Survival, and one based on their order. Orders include: Leaf (dealing with plants), Animal (start with an animal companion), Storm (elemental powers), and Wild (change shape at level 1!). It's important to note that you can get the things from any order (so wanting wild shape from level 1 doesn't lock you out of getting an animal companion or storm powers), but your chosen order will be the one you're best at. Many Druid feats have "Special: If you are a Druid of the X order, (some extra bonus)".
Druids cast from the "primal spell list".
Some feats! Anything I've marked with a "•" has a symbol next to it. For those concerned about legibility, I can easily make this out when I can't really read any of the non-title text.
Wind Caller (6th? 8th? can't make it out. That one carries over from last page's section.)
10th: Elemental Shape, • Form Control, • Healing Transformation, Nature Sense, • Primal Summons, Side by Side
14th: Dragon Shape, Green Tongue, Specialized Companion
18th: Invoke Disaster (gets you a bunch of castings of Earthquake every day, "I've never met a problem that isn't solved by casting Earthquake four times in a row"), Verdant Metamorphosis (turn into a plant per)
20th: Hierophant's Power, • Leyline Conduit (once per minute, cast a 5th(?) level or lower spell without spending a spell slot), True Shapeshifter
Animal companions:
Pick your animal companion type.
Animal companions can fight with you, giving you special perks. Iconic's animal companion can take an action to give the "full off-balance" to every attack the Druid makes against the person. (This is something ranger likes even more, of course!) Basically going into a "work with you" mode where you get bonuses for hitting the target. They can still just go attack things, though.
As you go up in power, animal companion starts young, becomes adult, then gains specialization (looks like there might be nimble and savage companions?). Two Druids with a cat animal companion will end up with two different companions over time. A few of the animal companion types include: badger (gets badger rage), bear (gets bear hug), bird (gets flyby attack), cat (entry continued on next page).
I'll get into spells in the next post.
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Is there anyone who can clean up and or zoom in to the earlier spoilers of the banquet. Because that's all the backgrounds in the Core right there for all to see! I want to know the particulars, but I just can't see them...
I love the layout of the book, the artwork, placing feats in their respective sections (Druid feats are in the Druid section, Gnome feats are in the Gnome section, etc) Thanks QuidEst for the summary!!
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(Just as a reminder, natural attacks work like regular attacks. As such, having a bunch of natural attacks just means you have options, not extra attacks in a round.)
Spell from the primal list: Dinosaur Form
Spell 4
Polymorph, Transmutation
Casting: Somatic, Verbal
Duration: One minute, or until dismissed
You transform into a large animal battle form. You must have space to expand or the spell is lost. You count as an animal in addition to your normal traits. Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can't activate it. When you transform, you gain the following:
• AC 25 (TAC 22), ignore armor's check penalty and reduced Speed.
• One or more natural melee attacks, which are the only types of attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +14; your damage bonus is +9. These are Strength based.
• 15 temporary Hit Points while you have the form.
• Low-light vision and scent.
• Athletics bonus of +14 unless your own bonus is higher.
These special statistics can be adjusted only by penalties circumstance bonuses, and conditional bonuses. Your battle form prevents casting spells, speaking, or using most actions with the manipulate trait that require hands (the GM decides if there's doubt). You can dismiss the spell with a concentrate action.
If you prepare this spell, choose from the following options. You gain the attacks, Speeds, and special abilities listed. You can choose the specific type of animal (such as allosaurus instead of tyrannosaurus). This has no effect on size or statistics.
• Ankylosuarus: Speed 25 feet; +1 conditional bonus to AC, but not TAC; tail (backswing, reach 10 feet), Damage 2d6 bludgeoning; foot (2d6 bludgeoning).
• Brachiosaurus: Speed 25 feet; tail (reach 15 feet), Damage 2d6 bludgeoning; foot (2d8 bludgeoning).
• Deinonychus: Speed 40 feet; talon (agile), Damage 2d4 piercing plus 1 persistent bleed; jaws, Damage 1d10 piercing.
• Stegosaurus: Speed 30 feet; tail (reach 10), Damage 2d8 piercing.
• Triceratops: Speed 30 feet; horn (2d8 piercing plus 1d6 persistent bleed on a critical hit); foot (2d6 bludgeoning).
• Tyrannosaurus: Speed 30 feet; jaws (deadly, reach 10), Damage 1d12 piercing; tail (reach 10), Damage 1d10 bludgeoning.
The heightened section is only visible at a bad zoom; I'll do my best to read it.
Heightened (5th): Your battle form is huge, and your attacks have 15 foot reach or 20 if they started with 15. Your statics are AC 27 (TAC 24), attack modifier +16 (?), damage bonus +9(?) and double damage dice, 20 temporary HP, Athletics +17.
Heighted (7th): Your battle form is gargantuan, and your attacks have 20-foot reach, or 25 if they started with 15. Your statistics are AC 33 (TAC 29), attack modifier +23, damage bonus +18 (?), and double damage dice, 25 temporary HP, Athletics +24.
Anyway, there's lots more stuff there, but that's all I'm going to type up. You can check out the Twitch stream for the rest!
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Primal spell list makes me so happy.
Then I remember they remained with WIS being main ability to clerics and I'm sad again :(
a thousand thanks to you QudEst! I really like all of it!
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I'm very much hoping that the tradeoff for combat shapeshifting being very short duration is that more utilitarian transformations are longer, even without needing Wild Shape.
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Because it doesn't seem worth a thread on its own to me, here's some info from the earlier PF2 panel that I noticed while watching it:
-We now know what Double Slice does. It allows you to spend two actions and make one attack with each of your two weapons. These attacks are both at your full bonus. Their damage is then added together before applying Resistance or Weakness. If you make a third attack it gets the full penalty for being a third attack (usually -10). This is actually super good (since it's effectively a +5 to hit on that second attack), and it's the introductory TWF Feat.
-We now know that stat-boosting items are in the game, though they were referenced as only at high levels (they also usually do other stuff as well, like a Belt of Giant Strength giving you Rock Catching and the ability to Enlarge yourself).
By math (based on Mark's comment regarding a 17-18 point swing between people who are terrible at a skill and specialists at 20th level), and combined with items giving up to +5 to skills (basically proved by the Gauntlet), we can infer that leveling Abilities past 18 with Level Ups must only give +1 rather than +2. This caps PCs at Ability Scores of 22 without magic (and, again due to the math, almost certainly at 24 even with magic).
-References were made to a Legendary Intimidate Skill Feat that is a Save or Die effect, as you literally scare people to death (it's limited to no more than one use per target per day). This bodes well for Skill Feats being powerful.
-In related news, you can spend your General Feats on Skill Feats if you want (and one Human Ancestry Feat gives a General Feat). Generally, you can't switch Feats between categories otherwise.
-Haste grants a bonus action (for a total of 4), but specifies that this action may only be used to Stride or Strike. In related news, the -10 for your third attack also applies to any subsequent attacks (like the one you could get from Haste) rather than escalating to -15.
EDIT: Well, since someone else started a thread I guess people should probably discuss this stuff over there.
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Also pertaining to druid shapeshift spells, since most of the replacements are now flat replacements to your own, I have to question if you're better off shifting versus just beating things with magic gear. I mean, a a 1d12 bite on a Trex is pretty naff when a +1 magic weapon can easily be 2d6 with some bonus hit to boot. Seems iffy for a L4 spell that severs your casting for the time.
Amulets of Mighty Fists exist and apparently do the same multiplying trick as magic weapons, as well as costing about the same. Assuming you have one this suddenly looks real nice.
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Druid gets four skills starting at trained from class: Crafting (I think), Nature, Survival, and one based on their order.
I'm not sure this is exactly true. These are the listed Signature Skills, but there's a separate 'Skills' entry further up the page, so I doubt it's quite as simple as just getting them and nothing else.
I think the skill entry says you get 4 + Intelligence Modifier skills at Trained. Now, what do Signature Skills mean in that case? Maybe if you take them you get them at Expert. Or maybe you get them (possibly even at Expert) on top of the skills you get from the Skills entry.
I really don't know, but them being an entirely separate entry from 'Skills' implies that there's more to it than that.
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Dirge of Doom and Disrupt Undead are both cantrips.
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When they went over magic items during the banquet, the Phylactery of the Occult spoiled what the last list of spells will be. We know of Arcane and Divine, they confirmed that Primal is the third list, and they said they wanted to keep the 4th list under wraps for a while longer, but the grater version grants dream message as an innate OCCULT spell. Unless that this is meant to define a 5th category of spells that won't be used by any of the core classes by default, this is our 4th and final list.
When they went over magic items during the banquet, the Phylactery of the Occult spoiled what the last list of spells will be. We know of Arcane and Divine, they confirmed that Primal is the third list, and they said they wanted to keep the 4th list under wraps for a while longer, but the grater version grants dream message as an innate OCCULT spell. Unless that this is meant to define a 5th category of spells that won't be used by any of the core classes by default, this is our 4th and final list.Could be Occult is the descriptor for Ritual Magic and its variations.
Could be, but doubtful, Rituals will likely run the gamut of the categories, since they serving the role of "Long cast time utility/BIG effect", like Planar Binding, Resurrection, and spells that will probably be clearly leaned towards certain types of magic, such as a spell like the PF1 Ceremony spell. I doubt Resurrection and Ceremony would be classified as occult spells giving their mostly divine origin and nature.
Ritual doesn't necessarily mean spooky or otherwoldly, it just means "Using this particular spell takes a LOT of time and effort" from our current understanding. So, while we don't have enough information to say that isn't the case, it's doubtful that occult is just a descriptor for ritual magic.
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-Disintegrate is a 6th level spell that takes two actions to cast and does 12d10 damage (or 66 average damage normally). It requires an attack roll as well as a Save, but a crit on the attack roll makes the Save one category worse than what they roll. Given that this is an attack at full bonus vs. touch AC, this may be more of an advantage than disadvantage. There is no critical save effect, but the other are as you'd expect.
That's certainly a higher damage single target spell than the area spells we've seen previously.
-Discern Lies is a level 4 spell. It grants a +4 to Perception checks to discern lies for 10 minutes. I have no idea how to feel about that. I mean, a bonus on something like that means a lot more in PF2, but +4 for a 4th level spell feels...vaguely inadequate? But then, I don't want spellcasters to be the only ones who can spot lies either.
-There are only two colors of spell icons on that page of the book, and no other seeming way to determine spell list. Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Disrupt Undead, and Dinosaur Form are the same color (they are black), as are Discern Lies, Disjunction, Dirge of Doom, and Discern Location (they are red). This is interesting. I have no earthly idea what it means, mind you, but it's interesting.
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The Phylactery of the Occult also grants guidance as an innate Occult spell. I'm pretty sure guidance is not a ritual.
I think we've got Occult pretty well confirmed as our fourth spell list.
Also, that means we've got a skill for each list (Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion).
I dunno, I mostly view it from the perspective that rituals should not cover every conceivable spell in existence and putting a line in each individual spell that can be ritualized is tedious and a waste of page space. Having say Resurrection be headed by something like Divine 6/Occult 7 for its spell levels makes more sense to me for telling me that given the time and materials for a L7 ritual (see proper page for the details) any dude can cast rez makes more sense for efficiently codifying ritual spells.When they went over magic items during the banquet, the Phylactery of the Occult spoiled what the last list of spells will be. We know of Arcane and Divine, they confirmed that Primal is the third list, and they said they wanted to keep the 4th list under wraps for a while longer, but the grater version grants dream message as an innate OCCULT spell. Unless that this is meant to define a 5th category of spells that won't be used by any of the core classes by default, this is our 4th and final list.Could be Occult is the descriptor for Ritual Magic and its variations.Could be, but doubtful, Rituals will likely run the gamut of the categories, since they serving the role of "Long cast time utility/BIG effect", like Planar Binding, Resurrection, and spells that will probably be clearly leaned towards certain types of magic, such as a spell like the PF1 Ceremony spell. I doubt Resurrection and Ceremony would be classified as occult spells giving their mostly divine origin and nature.
Ritual doesn't necessarily mean spooky or otherwoldly, it just means "Using this particular spell takes a LOT of time and effort" from our current understanding. So, while we don't have enough information to say that isn't the case, it's doubtful that occult is just a descriptor for ritual magic.
Continuing with this Resurrection example, Resurrection itself ISN'T a normal divine spell, but Raise Dead is. Animate Dead has ALSO been described as something that WOULD BE a ritual spell (Although confirmed not to be in the playtest document, considering its "create more monsters" aspect). Ritual Spells and Spell Slot Spells don't overlap directly, though may share similar effects such as Resurrection/Raise Dead.
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-Discern Lies is a level 4 spell. It grants a +4 to Perception checks to discern lies for 10 minutes. I have no idea how to feel about that. I mean, a bonus on something like that means a lot more in PF2, but +4 for a 4th level spell feels...vaguely inadequate? But then, I don't want spellcasters to be the only ones who can spot lies either.
Given a Legdendary skill would give +3, albeit also probably several other gated abilities, and items seem limited to +5, +4 seems pretty reasonable to me.
EDIT: Edited to correct item bonus max
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-Discern Lies is a level 4 spell. It grants a +4 to Perception checks to discern lies for 10 minutes. I have no idea how to feel about that. I mean, a bonus on something like that means a lot more in PF2, but +4 for a 4th level spell feels...vaguely inadequate? But then, I don't want spellcasters to be the only ones who can spot lies either.
Discern Lies is going to be much better when you cast it on your party sense motive specialist, I guess.
The design goal seem to be that this kind of spells do not "trump" the guy who spent points in the skill, but help them. It can help the caster too, if the caster spent points on the skill himself.
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The Phylactery of the Occult also grants guidance as an innate Occult spell. I'm pretty sure guidance is not a ritual.
I think we've got Occult pretty well confirmed as our fourth spell list.
Also, that means we've got a skill for each list (Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion).
The interesting part of this is...
who among the spellcasting classes in the core book is an occultist spellcaster?? Bard?
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Discern Lies is going to be much better when you cast it on your party sense motive specialist, I guess.
The design goal seem to be that this kind of spells do not "trump" the guy who spent points in the skill, but help them. It can help the caster too, if the caster spent points on the skill himself.
Like I said. My feelings on that one are confused. I do think it's probably better game design this way, I guess I'm just concerned about it not feeling especially cool or useful.
The interesting part of this is...
who among the spellcasting classes in the core book is an occultist spellcaster?? Bard?
Must be. We're out of other spellcasters.
The Bard being 'Occult' actually works well for me, though. Other obvious Classes to fall under that umbrella in PF2 when they show up are Witch and (obviously) Occultist. Maybe Spiritualist or Medium if we get those back.
Psychic would get its own 'Psychic' list which would likely also be used by Mesmerist. Maybe some other Classes, too.
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Depends what critical successes on Perception give you. Same way every +1 matters a lot more on attacks than is at first apparent because of the critical success possibility.
EDIT: Although why I'm violently agreeing with you given the amount of maths you've shown in this and other threads to unpick how the system changes, I've no idea.
I am disappointed the Druid does not gain a vermin option. Is it known if the armour restriction is finally dead?
I really want swarm options too! But I’ll admit that that’s a much more convincing APG content piece than CRB.
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Thank you for writing this all up QuidEst!
EDIT: Also thanks to Deadmanwalking!
I am disappointed the Druid does not gain a vermin option. Is it known if the armour restriction is finally dead?I really want swarm options too! But I’ll admit that that’s a much more convincing APG content piece than CRB.
We don't even know if vermin are still their own creature type. They might be animals now.
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We don't even know if vermin are still their own creature type. They might be animals now.I am disappointed the Druid does not gain a vermin option. Is it known if the armour restriction is finally dead?I really want swarm options too! But I’ll admit that that’s a much more convincing APG content piece than CRB.
I hope so.
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Depends what critical successes on Perception give you. Same way every +1 matters a lot more on attacks than is at first apparent because of the critical success possibility.
Oh, it's mechanically good, just a bit thematically lacklustre at first glance. It'll probably grow on me.
EDIT: Although why I'm violently agreeing with you given the amount of maths you've shown in this and other threads to unpick how the system changes, I've no idea.
My reaction to Discern Lies is purely emotional rather than based in reasoned analysis. That doesn't make it irrelevant (emotional reactions like mine are totally a thing, and if widespread even a potential issue with the spell), but it does mean that no matter how well I know that it's good mechanically the reaction persists. At least for now...
EDIT: Also thanks to Deadmanwalking!
You're quite welcome. All that stuff seemed interesting and something people should be aware of.
I also feel that +4 seems a low level bonus for a lvl 4 spell. But probably will need to see which kind of bonus lower level spells give to skills (like, say, knock at lvl 2). It seems a bit lackluster, yes.
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The Phylactery of the Occult also grants guidance as an innate Occult spell. I'm pretty sure guidance is not a ritual.
I think we've got Occult pretty well confirmed as our fourth spell list.
Also, that means we've got a skill for each list (Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion).
The interesting part of this is...
who among the spellcasting classes in the core book is an occultist spellcaster?? Bard?
I'm guessing Sorcerer is now Occult, and Bard like Paladin isn't a spellcaster at all but relies on spell point mana abilities.
Alternately, occult doubles down on mentalism type effects and that is the list the Bard uses to influence people, with "sonic effects" and such like Sound Burst now being spell point abilities.
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-References were made to a Legendary Intimidate Skill Feat that is a Save or Die effect, as you literally scare people to death (it's limited to no more than one use per target per day). This bodes well for Skill Feats being powerful.
Gah. I truly hope Mark's comments that PF2 can be customized and Legendary skills can easily be excised from the game is accurate. Because while Legendary is being advertised as something that kicks in only at high levels, if Skill Feats or some other mechanic lowers that barrier of entry to mid-levels, then Paizo has managed to re-convert me back to "PF1 forever".
I have been cautiously optimistic to outright "take my money now" for all of the teases thus far, including resonance and that conversion took place at a pace that surprised me. The only exceptions being minor concerns about NPC builds following a Starfinder route and MAJOR concerns about Legendary stuff turning the campaigns into a caricature of itself.
The stuff being touted as Legendary, isn't. It's demigod Mythic stuff. If it's hardwired into the game, it's sadly a deal-breaker for me.
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-References were made to a Legendary Intimidate Skill Feat that is a Save or Die effect, as you literally scare people to death (it's limited to no more than one use per target per day). This bodes well for Skill Feats being powerful.
Gah. I truly hope Mark's comments that PF2 can be customized and Legendary skills can easily be excised from the game is accurate. Because while Legendary is being advertised as something that kicks in only at high levels, if Skill Feats or some other mechanic lowers that barrier of entry to mid-levels, then Paizo has managed to re-convert me back to "PF1 forever".
I have been cautiously optimistic to outright "take my money now" for all of the teases thus far, including resonance and that conversion took place at a pace that surprised me. The only exceptions being minor concerns about NPC builds following a Starfinder route and MAJOR concerns about Legendary stuff turning the campaigns into a caricature of itself.
The stuff being touted as Legendary, isn't. It's demigod Mythic stuff. If it's hardwired into the game, it's sadly a deal-breaker for me.
Meanwhile, I love the heck out of it. Remember, Legendary stuff doesn't come online until level 13 at the earliest, usually level 15. Giving someone such a shock that they have a heart attack seems perfectly in theme for a very high level Intimidate.
-References were made to a Legendary Intimidate Skill Feat that is a Save or Die effect, as you literally scare people to death (it's limited to no more than one use per target per day). This bodes well for Skill Feats being powerful.
Gah. I truly hope Mark's comments that PF2 can be customized and Legendary skills can easily be excised from the game is accurate. Because while Legendary is being advertised as something that kicks in only at high levels, if Skill Feats or some other mechanic lowers that barrier of entry to mid-levels, then Paizo has managed to re-convert me back to "PF1 forever".
I have been cautiously optimistic to outright "take my money now" for all of the teases thus far, including resonance and that conversion took place at a pace that surprised me. The only exceptions being minor concerns about NPC builds following a Starfinder route and MAJOR concerns about Legendary stuff turning the campaigns into a caricature of itself.
The stuff being touted as Legendary, isn't. It's demigod Mythic stuff. If it's hardwired into the game, it's sadly a deal-breaker for me.
It's going to require a critical fail, be Charisma based (so only maxed on Bards and Sorcerers who have other very good abilities), and possibly require two saves like Phantasmal Killer. Don't freak out yet.
It's going to require a critical fail, be Charisma based (so only maxed on Bards and Sorcerers who have other very good abilities), and possibly require two saves like Phantasmal Killer. Don't freak out yet.
I'm listening to the recording now and my reaction is somewhat mollified by the fact that you A) have to be Legendary proficiency and B) have to have the appropriate Skill Feat. It doesn't appear to be an auto-get for hitting Legendary proficiency.
Does the skill-boost spell stuff also grant higher proficiency or that sort of thing? Wouldn't be surprised if so.
The Double Slice approach sounds interesting, sort of orthogonal to New Power Attack mechanics in a way.
The superficial advantages of DS vs PA are countered by Double Weapon investment cost translating to single weapon advantage,
although 2WF sounds like it's geared to weapons who will suffer less Iterative attack penalty, so pretty equivalent over all.
(sounds like they shouldn't normally be combinable, although if Hasted using Power Attack + Double Slice (x2 @ -5/-4) could be useful)
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Paladin isn't a spellcaster at all but relies onspell pointmana abilities.
Really? Is this confirmed? What about rangers? I'd be quite surprised if they remove spells from the Ranger (although quite happy about it).
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Paladin is confirmed using spell points, on the twitch stream with Mark.
Ranger makes sense to follow.
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I wonder if Paladins getting spell points instead of slots is what they meant by "some people can cast more" since in PF1 a 10th level Paladin with high charisma can cast 6 spells in a day. It's not hard to see the Paladin getting more than 6 spell points well before level 10.
Having to prepare spells doesn't really make a lot of sense for mid-level characters who have like 5 spell slots, and "you have a few spells powered by SP" is probably a better solution than full on spontaneous casting.
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The Phylactery of the Occult also grants guidance as an innate Occult spell. I'm pretty sure guidance is not a ritual.
I think we've got Occult pretty well confirmed as our fourth spell list.
Also, that means we've got a skill for each list (Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion).
The interesting part of this is...
who among the spellcasting classes in the core book is an occultist spellcaster?? Bard?
I'm guessing Sorcerer is now Occult, and Bard like Paladin isn't a spellcaster at all but relies on
spell pointmana abilities.Alternately, occult doubles down on mentalism type effects and that is the list the Bard uses to influence people, with "sonic effects" and such like Sound Burst now being spell point abilities.
I hope this is the case for a number of reasons. Chief among them is that I welcome any ounce of flavor to further distinguish Sorcerers from Wizards.
So yeah, did anyone else catch that one of the 10th level spells for divine casters turns you into an Avatar of your god?
That's...I'm just kind of amazed. It seems like quite the potent spell.
So yeah, did anyone else catch that one of the 10th level spells for divine casters turns you into an Avatar of your god?
That's...I'm just kind of amazed. It seems like quite the potent spell.
Yep! They've mentioned that one before. It's competing with no-cost Miracle, so it has to be pretty awesome.