Druid, and other PaizoCon banquet information!


Prerelease Discussion

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

For the Bard possibly not having spells or healing spells, I wouldn't count on it, because Mark said when talking about classes that could heal even if there was no Cleric in a party:
"Bard: A single bard turned out to easily handle all the healing the group needed assuming he was willing to make room for healing in his spells, which so far most bards have been in my playtest groups."
emphasis mine.


Elfteiroh wrote:

For the Bard possibly not having spells or healing spells, I wouldn't count on it, because Mark said when talking about classes that could heal even if there was no Cleric in a party:

"Bard: A single bard turned out to easily handle all the healing the group needed assuming he was willing to make room for healing in his spells, which so far most bards have been in my playtest groups."
emphasis mine.

Ha! I literally just found this and was going to post it. Guess that's a mystery solved.


The more I think about it the more I like the bard as an occult caster. Picking up bits and pieces of lore from songs and stories seems to fit the kind of hedge-mage occult style magic.

Also I really hope the Sorcerer spell list depends on bloodline, that would be very cool.


Do you think they are going to very the casting rules very much be source, in the way that psychics have different concentration rules PE1?


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Bardarok wrote:

The more I think about it the more I like the bard as an occult caster. Picking up bits and pieces of lore from songs and stories seems to fit the kind of hedge-mage occult style magic.

Also I really hope the Sorcerer spell list depends on bloodline, that would be very cool.

Occult is different than my proposed "Hedge magic" in my "4 spell lists" thread, but it still fit well and I'll be quite happy if it ends up close to that.

That sorcerer idea is VERY interesting, but I don't know if they could get away with this without affecting the lore that much... because that would be a BIG change, letting sorcerer suddenly heal depending on which list they chose.


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Jinjifra wrote:
Do you think they are going to very the casting rules very much be source, in the way that psychics have different concentration rules PE1?

That might be a class specific feature. So the Psychic can replace Verbal and Somatic Actions with Though and Emotion actions which don't make sound/require movement but have their own different limitations.


Good find re: Bard spell quote, I was never convinced by this no-spell speculation to begin with. There was threads going over specific problems of 4-level casters due to limitations of few slots, 3/4 casters just didn't really have that same problem IMHO.

The idea of Sorceror lists being solely Bloodline determined smells even more dubious to me than Spell-less (or spell slot-less) Bards. They will have Class Feats every level. That's WAY more than what they had in P1E, and certainly sufficient to express their Bloodline magic above and beyond base spell list. EDIT: I get impression opportunity cost is being well considered in system design, so heavily boosting one area on top of vanilla spells isn't a big deal, because you will be giving up on other areas. DC vs Saves will not be so trivial to break game math and stronger effects will need Crits anyways. BTW, P1E Core Rules allowed for Celestial Sorcerors to heal (Good only) with their Bloodline powers.

Curious how the decoupling of Alignment:Cure/Inflict correlation impacts Sorcerors. IMHO if Bloodlines offer Cure stuff, they should also offer Inflict/Negative Energy stuff. They didn't in P1E mostly because that wasn't considered competitive vs Arcane damage options, but IMHO it should be possible to carve out space which Inflict/Negative damage serves. Besides being rarely resisted damage type and targetting Will, IMHO it should offer more effects like HP transfer ala Vampiric Touch, debuffs ala Energy Drain... although that should certainly require Feating into and not just having basic Negative Channel/ Inflict spells.

Bard as Occult caster makes sense when considering Emotion/Thought components IMHO. Trying to include Occult casting in core also parallels their desire to include Alchemy, i.e. including them from Day 1 allows Core Rule to be better balanced and integrated with them. Every core ability can be written considering how it interacts with Occult casting and Alchemy.


Elfteiroh wrote:
Bardarok wrote:

The more I think about it the more I like the bard as an occult caster. Picking up bits and pieces of lore from songs and stories seems to fit the kind of hedge-mage occult style magic.

Also I really hope the Sorcerer spell list depends on bloodline, that would be very cool.

Occult is different than my proposed "Hedge magic" in my "4 spell lists" thread, but it still fit well and I'll be quite happy if it ends up close to that.

That sorcerer idea is VERY interesting, but I don't know if they could get away with this without affecting the lore that much... because that would be a BIG change, letting sorcerer suddenly heal depending on which list they chose.

I think they are okay with changing the lore up a bit. though I cannot really say since I have only ever done Homebrew (running the playtest will be my first time running a game in Golarion).

Also Celestial Bloodline Sorcerers can heal with the celestial fire bloodline power. It's just very underwhelming.


Bardarok wrote:
Also Celestial Bloodline Sorcerers can heal with the celestial fire bloodline power. It's just very underwhelming.

They couldn't have had them over-shadowing Draconic or Abyssal Claws or anything... ;-) (re: P1E)


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Quandary wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
Also Celestial Bloodline Sorcerers can heal with the celestial fire bloodline power. It's just very underwhelming.
Can't have them over-shadow Draconic or Abyssal Claws or anything...

With everyone having a full BAB, they might actually be useful in the new system, especially if they use their spellcasting proficiency for them.


Healing spells for sorcerers would be awesome especially for celestial, fey, verdant and any other bloodline that gets the divine or primal spell lists. Though fiendish related bloodlines might get the divine spell list but they might only get the negative energy stuff based on the 2e rules for clerics.


Isn't that ignoring that negative/positive is being decoupled from alignment? Now Undeath bloodlines, sure...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Even (especially) if Occult is the name of the 4th tradition, I highly doubt that they will introduce PF1 occult spellcasting. That would complicate things needlessly

Liberty's Edge

The Raven Black wrote:
Even (especially) if Occult is the name of the 4th tradition, I highly doubt that they will introduce PF1 occult spellcasting. That would complicate things needlessly

How components work doesn't seem at all tied to Spell List (with Wizards and Sorcerers using Material Components very differently, for example), so it'd be possible to have different Components for different Classes that use the same List.

So yeah, I don't think we're getting Thought or Emotion components in the corebook.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Even (especially) if Occult is the name of the 4th tradition, I highly doubt that they will introduce PF1 occult spellcasting. That would complicate things needlessly

How components work doesn't seem at all tied to Spell List (with Wizards and Sorcerers using Material Components very differently, for example), so it'd be possible to have different Components for different Classes that use the same List.

So yeah, I don't think we're getting Thought or Emotion components in the corebook.

But "Performance" or "Musical" component? That could be a way to introduce different kind of component for spells, like we already see with Divine focus serving to replace the Material Casting component. So when they finally introduce the Psychic casting using these two other ones, we'll have already seen that before in core.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Elfteiroh wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Even (especially) if Occult is the name of the 4th tradition, I highly doubt that they will introduce PF1 occult spellcasting. That would complicate things needlessly

How components work doesn't seem at all tied to Spell List (with Wizards and Sorcerers using Material Components very differently, for example), so it'd be possible to have different Components for different Classes that use the same List.

So yeah, I don't think we're getting Thought or Emotion components in the corebook.

But "Performance" or "Musical" component? That could be a way to introduce different kind of component for spells, like we already see with Divine focus serving to replace the Material Casting component. So when they finally introduce the Psychic casting using these two other ones, we'll have already seen that before in core.

They're taking a different approach. Bard still uses somatic and verbal components, but can substitute music for the verbal component.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Even (especially) if Occult is the name of the 4th tradition, I highly doubt that they will introduce PF1 occult spellcasting. That would complicate things needlessly

How components work doesn't seem at all tied to Spell List (with Wizards and Sorcerers using Material Components very differently, for example), so it'd be possible to have different Components for different Classes that use the same List.

So yeah, I don't think we're getting Thought or Emotion components in the corebook.

But "Performance" or "Musical" component? That could be a way to introduce different kind of component for spells, like we already see with Divine focus serving to replace the Material Casting component. So when they finally introduce the Psychic casting using these two other ones, we'll have already seen that before in core.
They're taking a different approach. Bard still uses somatic and verbal components, but can substitute music for the verbal component.

And they could, in the rules explaining this, call them actions with different names, so the Emotion/Thought actions of the psychic would work in a very similar manner. Emotion Casting, Music Casting, Verbal Casting, Somatic Casting. All of these fit and could work similarly with different rules. Emotion needs calm, Verbal need the possibility to speak, Somatic needs movement, Musical needs to make music. Now that casting is made to "look" really modular... well it's easy to make it modular for real.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I kind of like the idea that the sorcerer is MUCH more determined by their bloodline compared to P1, think the P2 domains, just more-so. I could also see Sorcerers have a ton of spell points and "spell-likes" (for lack of a better term) instead of having access (even if just theoretically) to the same spell list as a wizard.

If they REALLY wanted to go crazy, you could have a sorcerer be able to select any 2 essence list they want or have each bloodline assigned 2 essences depending on theme.

Who says sorcerers have to be so closely linked to wizards?


j b 200 wrote:

I kind of like the idea that the sorcerer is MUCH more determined by their bloodline compared to P1, think the P2 domains, just more-so. I could also see Sorcerers have a ton of spell points and "spell-likes" (for lack of a better term) instead of having access (even if just theoretically) to the same spell list as a wizard.

If they REALLY wanted to go crazy, you could have a sorcerer be able to select any 2 essence list they want or have each bloodline assigned 2 essences depending on theme.

Who says sorcerers have to be so closely linked to wizards?

I like a lot of this. Especially the last part.


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j b 200 wrote:
Who says sorcerers have to be so closely linked to wizards?

I do. But I don't work for Paizo, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Elfteiroh wrote:
Bardarok wrote:

The more I think about it the more I like the bard as an occult caster. Picking up bits and pieces of lore from songs and stories seems to fit the kind of hedge-mage occult style magic.

Also I really hope the Sorcerer spell list depends on bloodline, that would be very cool.

Occult is different than my proposed "Hedge magic" in my "4 spell lists" thread, but it still fit well and I'll be quite happy if it ends up close to that.

Since the witch is not a core class, they could very well have a 5th list of "witchcraft" or "hedge magic" as their spell list.

Also -- while it might be a bit confusing, could it be possible that occult magic and psychic magic are two different things in PF2?


QuidEst wrote:
j b 200 wrote:
Who says sorcerers have to be so closely linked to wizards?
I do. But I don't work for Paizo, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Ooh. I feel exactly the opposite about them. But, I don't work for Paizo either. So again, nothing to worry about. :)

Liberty's Edge

David knott 242 wrote:
Since the witch is not a core class, they could very well have a 5th list of "witchcraft" or "hedge magic" as their spell list.

Given the way the Essences have been framed, I suspect the entirety of PF2 will only have 6 spell lists ever. That being the case I find this unlikely.

David knott 242 wrote:
Also -- while it might be a bit confusing, could it be possible that occult magic and psychic magic are two different things in PF2?

This is actually my expectation. Occult would be Mental/Vital, while Psychic would be Mental/Spiritual.


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Nothingness is a worrisome concept.
Silence sings a sweet serenade, voicing vivid visions of a vibrant void.

Grand Lodge

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I would like to see Bards use mostly Spell Point abilities, and get spells in a similar way to 3.5's Factotum, which Jason helped create. It would reinforce the notion of Bards as dabblers in magic, and I'd give them access to all four lists.


Aristophanes wrote:
I would like to see Bards use mostly Spell Point abilities, and get spells in a similar way to 3.5's Factotum, which Jason helped create. It would reinforce the notion of Bards as dabblers in magic, and I'd give them access to all four lists.

I was kind of thinking something like this. Like, if they don't have their own spell list but just cherry pick from the others?


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That would be interesting, you could have a evil bard with animate dead, command/control undead, etc. a bard with earth themed spells, etc.


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Dragon78 wrote:
That would be interesting, you could have a evil bard with animate dead, command/control undead, etc. a bard with earth themed spells, etc.

The NECRODANCER Lives on!


ChibiNyan wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
That would be interesting, you could have a evil bard with animate dead, command/control undead, etc. a bard with earth themed spells, etc.
The NECRODANCER Lives on!

You know when something unexpectedly makes you so happy, that it kind of overwhelms you to the point where you think maybe you're gonna cry? Yeah...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lady Melo wrote:
gwynfrid wrote:
- The bard, after all, needs to entertain the crowd all day long, not just cast a bunch of spells and be done in five minutes.

Isn't the bards musical power in Pathfinder 1 measured in rounds per day? How long till you actually last 5 minutes? (4+Cha; +2 rounds per level)

Also most of the "performances" could be written up as spells with intricate verbal (vocals) or somatic (body movement like dancing) elements, or even material ones (such as instruments?). This already seems largely in line with spell casting since those performances are magically infused. Also a single spell that has a duration of an hour pretty much changes that whole 5 minute bit doesn't it?

for me kloth from a wise man fear

Silver Crusade

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ChibiNyan wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
That would be interesting, you could have a evil bard with animate dead, command/control undead, etc. a bard with earth themed spells, etc.
The NECRODANCER Lives on!

Port over some class features from the Dirge Bard, give it the Danse Macarbre masterpiece and add Threnodic Spell as a class feat and you're cooking with the methane released from a decomposing corpse!


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I'm sure I could cut you a deal too...


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
1of1 wrote:

Nothingness is a worrisome concept.

Silence sings a sweet serenade, voicing vivid visions of a vibrant void.

Nice alliteration there!


John John wrote:
Question, can everyone "cast" a ritual or only spellcasting classes?

I forget where, but in one of the reveals/dev posts it was mentioned that non-spellcasters (at the minimum, might have included casters as well), had to take a feat, and got access to rituals that way.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
willuwontu wrote:
John John wrote:
Question, can everyone "cast" a ritual or only spellcasting classes?
I forget where, but in one of the reveals/dev posts it was mentioned that non-spellcasters (at the minimum, might have included casters as well), had to take a feat, and got access to rituals that way.

*nods*

They're tied to certain skills and skill feats.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

More Druid information, thanks to a high-def video posted by Know Direction.

Druid wildshaping is much shorter. You have a wildshaping pool that you can spend points from to cast various spells from. From the context, I'm guessing that they're auto-heightened, but not otherwise modified. At 10th level, you can take a feat that allows you to extend the duration of a spell you cast this way (provided it lasts at least one minute) to one hour at the cost of an extra action casting time and reducing the spell level it heightens to by 1. (It can't be used on spells that weren't being heightened about their original level.)

Druids that aren't of the storm order don't seem to increase their spell point pool for taking storm order powers. There is also a non-order ability to significantly enhance your summons by spending a spell point, and it doesn't provide an increase to your spell point pool. (My guess is this would normally be adding an extra action, but summoning spells are three actions, so it's instead drawing on your spell point pool.) The options are:
- 80 ft. fly speed.
- Burrow speed 20ft., land speed reduced by 10ft. (minimum 5ft.), resistance 5 to physical damage.
- Attacks deal +1d6 fire damage, resistance 10 to fire, weakness 5 to cold and water.
- Swim speed 60ft., spend an action after hitting to attempt a Shove (ignores iterative penalties), resistance 5 to fire.

Other order-specific perks are:
- Green Tongue gives everybody and their leshy the ability to talk to plants, but leaf order generally treats plants as starting at friendly.
- Specialized Companion can be taken by anybody, but animal order can take it multiple times for multiple specializations.
- Verdant Metamorphasis transforms anybody into a plant creature, and allows transforming into a plant as a very thorough disguise, but leaf order can rest in that form to heal to full health and remove a selection of non-permanent conditions.

Further notes:
- Druid is a prepared caster, but appears to have spells known, and spells appear to have rarities (at least common and uncommon). Taking the feat for 10th level spells at level 20 gives you a 10th level slot, and lets you add two 10th level spells of rarity common or uncommon from the primal list to your list of spells known. You appear to have default access to common Druid spells for other spell levels.
- The Leyline Casting capstone (1/minute cast a 5th level or lower spell without expending it) has the following restrictions: you have to add an action to the casting, and it must not have a duration. (That is to say, instantaneous spells only.)

Coming up: More about animal companions!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Quid can you post a link I am having trouble finding the video you are talking about.


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Spell rarities :|


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Spell rarities :|

I frowned for a moment and then thought about it. It's actually a pretty cool idea. If they limit what spells you can normally get through advancement, but open up awesome flavorful spells in the world.

By making, for example, a spell taught to members of a desert cabal of Druids a rare spell, not everyone can just pick it. But a player might want to seek out a Djinni to teach it to them. So long as it isn't too restrained it can open up a lot of plot hooks.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

- Animal companions have the minion trait. (No, it's not like 4e minions. Or Despicable Me minions, thank goodness.) That means that they get two actions on your turn if you spend a Command an Animal action. This replaces the normal effects of that action.
- Animal companions that are at least one size category larger can be ridden by you or an ally. They need the mount trait to use anything other than land speed. If somebody is riding them and they don't have the mount trait, then they can't use their Work Together ability with you.
- Animal companions calculate their modifiers, DCs, etc. like PCs, with one exception. The only item bonus they can benefit from is barding for +2 AC.
- Starts as trained in unarmored defense, barding, unarmed strikes, all saves, perception, athletics, and acrobatics. They can't do smart things like Decipher Writing unless their specialization lets them.
- The base mods are Str +2, Dex +1, Con +0, Int -4, Wis +1, Cha -1. (Each animal type increases two of these by 1.)
- Hitpoints are (6 + Con)/level plus some starting ancestry points (4 for bird, 8 for bear). If they do kick the bucket, it's a week of downtime and no cost to replace them.
- When your animal companion reaches adulthood, increase its Str, Dex, Con, and Wis modifiers by 1, make its natural attacks two dice instead of one, increase proficiency in perception and saves to expert, and increase its size by one step if it's medium or smaller.
- I think the two available specializations are nimble and savage.
Nimble: Increase Dex mod by 2, and Str, Con, and Wis by 1. Unarmed strike goes from two dice to three. Get expert proficiency in acrobatics and unarmored defense. It learns its animal type's advanced maneuver (badger rage, bear hug, flyby attack, etc.).
Savage: Increase Str mod by 2, and Dex, Con, and Wis by 1. Unarmed strike goes from two dice to three. Get expert proficiency in Athletics. It learns its animal type's advanced maneuver (badger rage, bear hug, flyby attack, etc.). It increases its size by one step if it's medium or smaller.
- Individual animal companions have movement, two ability scores they increase, senses, damage, additional skills they're trained in, a specific work together benefit, and an advanced maneuver or ability.
- Work Together takes on of their actions, and restricts the other to moving to get into position. Benefits include making your attacks prevent the target from taking the step action (unless they can normally do so in difficult terrain), giving your attacks +1d8 damage (or +2d8 with specialization), giving your attacks +1d4 persistent bleed damage (or +2d4 with specialization), or making your attacks cause flat-footed until the end of your next round (two rounds on a crit).

Further notes:
- Pounce and other fancy abilities come online for a Druid's animal companion at level 14. The presentation talked about two big cat companions ending up differently, but it seems that "end" is pretty important there- there doesn't seem to be anything different until level 14 (as opposed to PF1's feat selection hitting as soon as first level, and opening up if you increase Int).
- Companions seem much more balanced with one another.
- If your companion ever finds itself unable to hit, Work Together lets it boost your attacks instead.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Emeric Tusan wrote:
Quid can you post a link I am having trouble finding the video you are talking about.

Link!

Shadow Lodge

So no more flying mounts unless you spend a trait for it? Or pick a flaying/swimming mount that has the trait?

Another notch against the setting I see.


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Unarmored Defense has its own proficiency. That should make it easier for monks and neked barbarians.

EDIT: Also makes a floor of 10 + Lvl -2 +Dex even for untrained unrmored AC.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:

So no more flying mounts unless you spend a trait for it? Or pick a flaying/swimming mount that has the trait?

Another notch against the setting I see.

Flaying mounts would be awesome, but I don't think those were a part of the setting before, unless there's a kyton I didn't know about. I think it's a stretch to interpret "we're not making any major changes to the setting" as "anything that the rules allowed before will still be allowed". Druids riding birds wasn't a major part of the setting before; it was something PCs could do.

Traits are not something you spend. I'm not sure how exactly one gets a companion with the mount trait- I'm guessing that classes that get mounts add the mount trait, and it's likely that there will be a way to add it for other classes.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't see the problem of needing to pick a companion that can fly or spending a resource to make them so, in order to have a flying mount. Not sure where the knock against the setting comes from there.


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Spell rarity is a very exciting revelation. I want to know if that only applies to level 10 spells.


Probably some kind of feat. Also, was there anyway to get a flying mount without spending resources in PF1? At a glance, I see a couple of medium flyers that turn large at 7... But there's a cost there of having a much less effective killing machine compared to a cat or Dino.

We may wind up getting something like that which has the the mount tag and can also fly. Who knows.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Probably some kind of feat. Also, was there anyway to get a flying mount without spending resources in PF1? At a glance, I see a couple of medium flyers that turn large at 7... But there's a cost there of having a much less effective killing machine compared to a cat or Dino.

We may wind up getting something like that which has the the mount tag and can also fly. Who knows.

There might be ridding pterodactyls or some similar shenanigans.

I think mounts may become the meta for animal companions. When you are mounted up, they let you get a move and a mount attack as one action. Even if you build a character not suited for melee, they still let you deliver your fighter friend to the fight. I also suspect there are gonna be ways to get your mount to fly.


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Spell rarity, huh? Good bye, easy Blood Money... (grins)


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If Druids (and presumably, Clerics) have Spells Known limiting their access to their spell list that's a pretty significant and well-warranted nerf to CoDzilla.

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