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Option A, there is no "in universe" change. They take the 3E "this is just viewing the world through a different lens" approach.
Option B, Return of the Runelords acts as a "Time of Troubles" meta clusterduck that in-story alters reality.
There was no major story change when the setting went from 3.5 to Pathfinder. I'm not sure there would be a need for an update this time around either. Based on what we've seen in previews, I don't see anything that happened in the 1e adventure paths that can't happen in 2e.
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So far we've been focusing on mechanics, but since this is Golarion, and basically physics have fundamentally changed are we getting an explanation for it, ala Starfinder's gap?
I don't think ANY change is necessitated by the mechanical changes. For the most part, we're seeing mechanics that are 'under the hood'. Alchemists 'casting' potions vs making non-magic ones doesn't change the story: both involve them drinking their creations for abilities. Casters have less spells but that in and of itself doesn't alter stories. Resonance vs slots: most stories don't revolve around these aspects of the game. Hit's, misses, and crits: again, it's all behind the scenes.
So IMO, pathfinder classic can end on a tuesday and new pathfinder can start on a wednesday and continue without skipping a beat.
So far, nothing revealed in the blog justifies a major update in the way Golarion works. Wizards are still arcane casters with books full of spells, paladins still have a strict code, rogues are still sneaky, fighters still fight, and clerics still worship gods. Whatever mechanical differences between PF1 and PF2 aren't going to change world history.
At most, we could see a cultural evolution explaining why and how a few goblins slowly integrate into mainstream society? And even that isn't strictly necessary. It's quite possible to treat all PC goblins as incredibly rare exceptions within their kind. This is how they've been a playable race in PF1 for quite some time.
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At most, we could see a cultural evolution explaining why and how a few goblins slowly integrate into mainstream society?
Ah, I forgot about them: IMO, there is going to have to be some MAJOR event to push goblins into the mainstream. If they are staying "incredibly rare exceptions", it seems quite odd for them to take up space in the core books.
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Not to have the goblin discussion again, but we have mostly seen one broad region around the sea, only lightly delving into other areas. It's entirely reasonable for goblins elsewhere in less detailed regions to have more culture and be better integrated into society, and those form the bulk of the goblin PCs in PF2 due to those regions now getting more "screen time" and increased trade or whatever.
But I think he was primarily asking about the mechanical side, and yeah, they're almost certainly going to just use the 3E explanation. Which is totally fine. Nothing changed in universe, just the rules and perspective representing it did.
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At most, we could see a cultural evolution explaining why and how a few goblins slowly integrate into mainstream society?Ah, I forgot about them: IMO, there is going to have to be some MAJOR event to push goblins into the mainstream. If they are staying "incredibly rare exceptions", it seems quite odd for them to take up space in the core books.
Yes, but that is more of a setting change requiring a setting explanation than a mechanical change.
Not to have the goblin discussion again, but we have mostly seen one broad region around the sea, only lightly delving into other areas. It's entirely reasonable for goblins elsewhere in less detailed regions to have more culture and be better integrated into society, and those form the bulk of the goblin PCs in PF2 due to those regions now getting more "screen time" and increased trade or whatever.
But that's what I'm saying with a 'MAJOR event": A whole new area would be opened up AND a significant interaction with it would need to happen in an incredibly short time. Then add the fact that it has to create a sea change in attitudes towards the random goblin...
But I think he was primarily asking about the mechanical side, and yeah, they're almost certainly going to just use the 3E explanation. Which is totally fine. Nothing changed in universe, just the rules and perspective representing it did.
Oh, I covered that in my first post: nothing in the mechanics so far require an overt alteration in the setting.
Yes, but that is more of a setting change requiring a setting explanation than a mechanical change.
As I said to Fuzzypaws, I already expressed my opinion that nothing in the mechanics so far seem to necessitate a setting change. So far the only thing that's going to require that is goblins IMO.
I'm hoping that 1 of the 2.5 APs between now and PF2 releasing brings goblins into the fold. Maybe even the one later this year, so that the playtest can reference it in part.
Although we know at least some of the storyline will be advanced, so I'm curious if anything else will be added in.
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If you track goblin appearances in Pathfinder from their first time ransacking Sandpoint through the various modules, comics, and Society scenarios, there's already been an evolution on that front.
Personally, I'd prefer to see the evolution continue rather than have the attitudes toward goblins drastically change over the course of a single adventure path. Then again, if the adventure path was a fun one...
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If you track goblin appearances in Pathfinder from their first time ransacking Sandpoint through the various modules, comics, and Society scenarios, there's already been an evolution on that front.
Personally, I'd prefer to see the evolution continue rather than have the attitudes toward goblins drastically change over the course of a single adventure path. Then again, if the adventure path was a fun one...
If you track goblin appearances in Pathfinder from their first time ransacking Sandpoint through the various modules, comics, and Society scenarios, there's already been an evolution on that front.
I have to say, I haven't see the "evolution" others seem to see. There have been some isolated instances of non-evil goblins but they have been FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too minor to evoke any kind of shift in attitude: those few times in "various modules, comics, and Society scenarios" have extremely limited impact and are ultimately unknown to the average person in the setting. An attack on Sandpoint? they might have heard about that. A non-awful goblin in module x? Not so much.
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If you track goblin appearances in Pathfinder from their first time ransacking Sandpoint through the various modules, comics, and Society scenarios, there's already been an evolution on that front.I have to say, I haven't see the "evolution" others seem to see. There have been some isolated instances of non-evil goblins but they have been FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too minor to evoke any kind of shift in attitude: those few times in "various modules, comics, and Society scenarios" have extremely limited impact and are ultimately unknown to the average person in the setting. An attack on Sandpoint? they might have heard about that. A non-awful goblin in module x? Not so much.
Agreed. I've said it before, but the issue isn't Goblins as a playable race or even Goblins as a core race. It's the same core race line up with Goblins hot glued to it that is the problem. If the line up was for example: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Orc, Hafling, Goblin, Gnome, and Kobold with the half-breeds and planar touched races covered as subsets of the races, I would hardly have an issue. But saying everything is the same except in 10 years Goblins became one of "The most expansive and populous of Golarion’s races" is too big a pill to swallow. Why are other races not deserving of the same PR upgrade? It doesn't matter what excuse the writers think up, it doesn't change the fact that it is a made up excuse used to justify an inorganic change to the setting.
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When APG was released, Witches, Oracles and Alchemists appeared out of nowhere in Golarion and had always been there
We seamlessly took it in stride
This.
Why the hate on goblins but not these?
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When APG was released, Witches, Oracles and Alchemists appeared out of nowhere in Golarion and had always been there
We seamlessly took it in stride
This.
Why the hate on goblins but not these?
For one, they didn't appear out of no where. Clerics, Wizards, and Mystic Theurges changed to casting classes that better suited the characters. Much like Blackjack didn't appear out of no where but changed from Rogue to Vigilante. For two, those class changes didn't represent a fairly major shift on the last decade of presented material.
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When APG was released, Witches, Oracles and Alchemists appeared out of nowhere in Golarion and had always been there
We seamlessly took it in stride
This.
Why the hate on goblins but not these?
They didn't represent a 180 degree CHANGE in the lore: they simply added new info. SO it's apples and oranges: Adding alchemists is quite different from taking a known class, say paladin, and suddenly out of the blue saying they are now only allowed to be good anymore. It's that kind of change, a complete turn around in attitude.
Goblins already exist and they are know to be just awful. To everyone. And even goblins hate other goblins...
Well they aren't going to write every goblin that ever became tolerated. If we take content to be a sample, rather than a list of exceptions, it means the phenomenon is more widespread. If only 1 in 20 Goblins are decent, that is still thousands across the world.
It's more that it's going from a 1 in a million exception to that 1 in 20. I don't see how a place goes from killing goblins because they frequent raids to them being cool with them...
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Can we not do the Goblin argument again? Please?
I personally agree that there needs to be an in-setting explanation for that one, and suspect we'll get one (maybe in the final AP?) that will be satisfying to most (though not all) people, but the argument's already been had. Several times.
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My personal bet is on the Return of the Runelords AP will contain the most 'swing' of the remaining material on the Goblin front, likely involving some kind of 'enemy of my enemy' cooperation between a chunk of a/the goblin population and other cultures, which can leave us with an 'uneasy peace' afterwards, as well as exposing more individual goblins to more civilized behaviors (relatively speaking). Not to say it will swing the goblin contingent as a whole to 'friendly', but perhaps bring them closer to 'indifferent' as the default attitude.
Can we not do the Goblin argument again? Please?
I personally agree that there needs to be an in-setting explanation for that one, and suspect we'll get one (maybe in the final AP?) that will be satisfying to most (though not all) people, but the argument's already been had. Several times.
Argument isn't over until the CRB goes to print. And the issue is that waiving your writer's wand at the last minute does not provide an adequate and, more importantly, organic change to the story. It's a fantasy setting, they can make up whatever they want. They could literally have Godzilla come to Golarion and say "Goblins are cool" as the stated reason. The issue is that changes like that are bad writing. Goblins become core may not take as silly an explanation, but it will require one as egregious. Especially when none of the other races are getting the PR upgrade. Again, the Inner Sea Guide lists the core races as "The most expansive and populous of Golarion’s races".
My personal bet is on the Return of the Runelords AP will contain the most 'swing' of the remaining material on the Goblin front, likely involving some kind of 'enemy of my enemy' cooperation between a chunk of a/the goblin population and other cultures, which can leave us with an 'uneasy peace' afterwards, as well as exposing more individual goblins to more civilized behaviors (relatively speaking). Not to say it will swing the goblin contingent as a whole to 'friendly', but perhaps bring them closer to 'indifferent' as the default attitude.
I agree it will likely be something along those lines. Which raises the question of why none of the other races got in on that action? And the answer, of course, is that those races weren't made core in 2E. Which is not an acceptable or satisfactory answer.
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Especially when none of the other races are getting the PR upgrade. Again, the Inner Sea Guide lists the core races as "The most expansive and populous of Golarion’s races".
Without diving too deep into a conversation that can turn sour pretty quickly, none of the "planar" races (aasimar, tieflings, undine, sylphs, oreads, ifrits, etc.) meet the criteria of "The most expansive and populous of Golarion’s races", while goblins absolutely, 100% do. There are goblins everywhere in Golarion, from the sewers of Magnimar, to the wildlands of Varisia, to the markets of Katapesh and the waters of the Shackles. Given the rate at which goblins breed and reach adulthood, it's possible that not even humans are as "expansive and populous" as goblins (though they certainly win in public relations and establishing permanent settlements). Goblins even breed and reach adulthood faster than kobolds, as well as being known to inhabit a wider swath of Golarion. If "expansive and populous" is the only measure used to establish what should or should not be a core race, goblins would actually have precedence over every single one of the current edition core races, with the possible exception of humans.
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Without diving too deep into a conversation that can turn sour pretty quickly, none of the "planar" races (aasimar, tieflings, undine, sylphs, oreads, ifrits, etc.) meet the criteria of "The most expansive and populous of Golarion’s races", while goblins absolutely, 100% do. There are goblins everywhere in Golarion, from the sewers of Magnimar, to the wildlands of Varisia, to the markets of Katapesh and the waters of the Shackles. Given the rate at which goblins breed and reach adulthood, it's possible that not even humans are as "expansive and populous" as goblins (though they certainly win in public relations and establishing permanent settlements). Goblins even breed and reach adulthood faster than kobolds, as well as being known to inhabit a wider swath of Golarion. If "expansive and populous" is the only measure used to establish what should or should not be a core race, goblins would actually have precedence over every single one of the current edition core races, with the possible exception of humans.Especially when none of the other races are getting the PR upgrade. Again, the Inner Sea Guide lists the core races as "The most expansive and populous of Golarion’s races".
I'm not really vying for planar races to be core beyond folding them in with human ancestry. Which may or may not be viable, as I said the core list I gave was an example. The example being more that having a new list of core races that includes Goblins is better than just gluing Goblins on to the existing list. However, it should be noted that Aasimars are so populous in Tian that they have their own country.
Goblins do not have a country. They hold no territory, they have no cities, no real society beyond temporary tribalism. Even the monster cities don't like them. So they go from having the societal placement of literal rats to a core race of the Inner Sea in a 10 year period? Not only that, but without any of the other races also having a similar meteoric rise. What organic reason could they possibly give?
The goblins being literally everywhere is actually a point against them. If they are so present everywhere the current view of Goblins hold, that means there isn't so much of a back water village that doesn't view Goblins as puppy torturing monsters. Oh but one of them passed the test of the Star Stone, nevermind all that now? COMEON.gif
Again, goblins are a setting change requiring a setting explanation, not a mechanical change. The goblin explanation is off-topic for this thread.
What are you talking about? This is a thread discussing possible story changes to explain changes made to the game.
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I do have a question: Does all of the story lore represented thus far point to goblins being reviled everywhere in the same way that goblins are reviled in Sandpoint/Varisia? Is there literature stating that goblins are reviled from Absalom, to the Garundi continent, to the Shackles, to Magnimar, to Riddleport, and back again? I might be misremembering, but I don't recall it anywhere, and in particular most races are at least tolerated in the larger metropolises. (Even MINOTAURS are tolerated in Absalom!)
I can see smaller backwaters having "shoot goblins on sight" attitudes, but heck, they tolerate SLAVERS in Absalom and Katapesh! As long as the little dudes aren't randomly starting massive fires or mass-murdering parts of the populace, I doubt the places allowing minotaurs, slavers, and probably scores of intelligent undead who keep their cover are not going on pogroms for goblins, as they are a source of slave and cheap labor, who aren't likely to demand better working conditions because they're by choice illiterate, and will pretty much happily receive and even eat garbage as payment.
My personal bet is on the Return of the Runelords AP will contain the most 'swing' of the remaining material on the Goblin front, likely involving some kind of 'enemy of my enemy' cooperation between a chunk of a/the goblin population and other cultures, which can leave us with an 'uneasy peace' afterwards, as well as exposing more individual goblins to more civilized behaviors (relatively speaking). Not to say it will swing the goblin contingent as a whole to 'friendly', but perhaps bring them closer to 'indifferent' as the default attitude.I agree it will likely be something along those lines. Which raises the question of why none of the other races got in on that action? And the answer, of course, is that those races weren't made core in 2E. Which is not an acceptable or satisfactory answer.
Well, if its Varisa, we might get Drow too. I never played or read Second Darkness, so I have no idea if that makes sense, but they could throw a couple Drow feats as options for Elf Ancestry. Regular Elves can become Drow and back again anyways, right? Ancestry feats might actually let the mechanics facilitate the story if that's the case.
I do have a question: Does all of the story lore represented thus far point to goblins being reviled everywhere in the same way that goblins are reviled in Sandpoint/Varisia? Is there literature stating that goblins are reviled from Absalom, to the Garundi continent, to the Shackles, to Magnimar, to Riddleport, and back again? I might be misremembering, but I don't recall it anywhere, and in particular most races are at least tolerated in the larger metropolises. (Even MINOTAURS are tolerated in Absalom!)
I can see smaller backwaters having "shoot goblins on sight" attitudes, but heck, they tolerate SLAVERS in Absalom and Katapesh! As long as the little dudes aren't randomly starting massive fires or mass-murdering parts of the populace, I doubt the places allowing minotaurs, slavers, and probably scores of intelligent undead who keep their cover are not going on pogroms for goblins, as they are a source of slave and cheap labor, who aren't likely to demand better working conditions because they're by choice illiterate, and will pretty much happily receive and even eat garbage as payment.
The overwhelming majority of the lore has goblins as baby eating monsters. There are numerous examples of non baby eating monster goblins, but they are presented as "exceptions to the rule". Good for examples for Goblins as a playable race, but hardly enough to justify them becoming a core race. Which is the issue at hand. Few mind goblins as a PC option.
As an example, Kaer Maga is one of the major monster cities. Goblins are present in the city, but the other monsters basically view them the same as everyone else. They do have the same rights as humans in Whitethrone. However, normal humans are a near slave-like 2nd class and really you only have the rights you have the power to keep. This is kind of the issue, even the best examples for goblins hardly lend credence to them being a core race.
As far as Goblin workers or minions, I would probably point to the hyenas from Lion King for comparison. Yeah if you are a villain that just need some murder monsters, they'll probably get the job done. If you go beyond that, especially if you want to have a functional society, they are far less useful.
Well, if its Varisa, we might get Drow too. I never played or read Second Darkness, so I have no idea if that makes sense, but they could throw a couple Drow feats as options for Elf Ancestry. Regular Elves can become Drow and back again anyways, right? Ancestry feats might actually let the mechanics facilitate the story if that's the case.My personal bet is on the Return of the Runelords AP will contain the most 'swing' of the remaining material on the Goblin front, likely involving some kind of 'enemy of my enemy' cooperation between a chunk of a/the goblin population and other cultures, which can leave us with an 'uneasy peace' afterwards, as well as exposing more individual goblins to more civilized behaviors (relatively speaking). Not to say it will swing the goblin contingent as a whole to 'friendly', but perhaps bring them closer to 'indifferent' as the default attitude.I agree it will likely be something along those lines. Which raises the question of why none of the other races got in on that action? And the answer, of course, is that those races weren't made core in 2E. Which is not an acceptable or satisfactory answer.
Drow are a bit iffy. Second Darkness made it clear that Drow were nothing more than evil elves. Not like Forgotten Realms with a curse that makes them lean towards evil, but actually corrupted elves. From what I understand they've leaned back from that but I'm not sure if they have formally changed it. I don't remember if they can turn back or not. However, before Second Darkness Drow were a closely held secret. Whether or not Drow remain evil, they might be an elf ancestry just from being known now.
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I do have a question: Does all of the story lore represented thus far point to goblins being reviled everywhere in the same way that goblins are reviled in Sandpoint/Varisia?
No. The primary places where there is a clear trend established across multiple products of goblins being viewed as a constant menace are in Varisia and Isger, which (coincidentally or otherwise) happen to be the areas where human colonists murdered the native goblin populations and stole their ancestral homes. If I murdered someone's parents and stole their house, I'd probably want to paint them in an unfavorable light as well.
In the Shackles, if you happen to be a merchant being attacked by pirates, you'd actually hope that they're goblins, since the goblin pirates in that area are much more likely to leave their victims alive and allow them to take the life boats. If you live in Magnimar, you literally count on the local goblin population to keep your sewers (relatively) safe and clean. If you live in Kaoling, you have a hobgoblin council ruling the entire nation. In Cheliax, there is an entire tribe of goblins with a human nobleman acting as their patron.While none of that precludes there being broader events that could lead to better integration of goblins into broader society, they do occupy a huge swath of Golarion, there are multiple major cities that have goblin populations which aren't murdered on sight and are often even an integral part of the area's ecosystem, and there is established variance in both how they are viewed and in how they act across different geographical areas. In the Kaava Lands, the average human would be much more likely to view a halfling with fear and distrust than they would a single goblin.
Sorry to perpetuate the digression there. Closer to (what I assume is) the main point of the thread- there's very little that would need to change in-world to justify the mechanical changes of the new edition. As graystone noted earlier in the thread, the vast majority of these changes as revealed so far are "behind the scenes" tweaks to how things work rather than a reimagining of what is possible. Particularly when you take into account that the existence of mythic PCs and NPCs is canon, the universe surrounding Golarion already assumes that there are high level fighters capable of making 20 foot aerial leaps and whatever other legendary-type options are likely to be made available. Likely the reason that this thread turned to goblins so quickly is that they're one of the only elements of the new edition that does beg for some elaboration. The idea that "physics have fundamentally changed" as posited in the OP doesn't really have any teeth to it, so there's no need for a story explanation to justify it.
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What are you talking about? This is a thread discussing possible story changes to explain changes made to the game.
OP was asking if there will be any story changes related to the change in the *rules*.
So far we've been focusing on mechanics, but since this is Golarion, and basically physics have fundamentally changed are we getting an explanation for it, ala Starfinder's gap?
Why or why not? Discuss here.
Goblins aren't a change in the rules, just a change in their stature in the setting.
Let's focus on actual rules elements that might benefit from some setting explanation.
No. The primary places where there is a clear trend established across multiple products of goblins being viewed as a constant menace are in Varisia and Isger
And Cheliex, and Molthune, and Nirmathas, and Ustalav, etc. Hardly just the two places.
If you live in Magnimar, you literally count on the local goblin population to keep your sewers (relatively) safe and clean.
Korvosa relies on otyughs, shall we make them core?
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Goblins being added to the Core Rules are point of fact a rule change. But you can feel free to leave the discussion.
Which rules changed, pray tell? Goblins exist in PF1. They even exist as a playable race.
I was looking forward to an interesting discussion about actual rule changes before this derail.
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I was looking forward to an interesting discussion about actual rule changes [...].
One thing that pops out to me as having some very interesting potential—How can rituals change the types of stories being told? Depending on exactly what spells are being transformed into rituals, you could have an adventure where a high level drow fighter has gathered the components to create a new moon with a wish and create an eclipse that allows them to lead a warband against the surface, or where the rogue leading a thieve's or assassin's guild is creating networks of portals that allow his agents to threaten even the most heavily guarded individuals and estates. That is definitely one element of the new edition that I'm really looking forward to seeing explored, is how the addition of rituals that anyone can perform changes the landscape of high level challenges.
Clan Daggers for dwarves! Elves dying earlier! Both need to be explained.
Eh, the "Elves Dying Earlier" I'd argue is just simplifying the maximum age rules, and even increased over the average max age from PF1e by around 50 years.
My apologies to everyone for raising the dreaded and dreadful matter of the goblin on this thread. I think it was on topic, but I should have expected the reaction and avoided that path.
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I was looking forward to an interesting discussion about actual rule changes [...].One thing that pops out to me as having some very interesting potential—How can rituals change the types of stories being told? Depending on exactly what spells are being transformed into rituals, you could have an adventure where a high level drow fighter has gathered the components to create a new moon with a wish and create an eclipse that allows them to lead a warband against the surface, or where the rogue leading a thieve's or assassin's guild is creating networks of portals that allow his agents to threaten even the most heavily guarded individuals and estates. That is definitely one element of the new edition that I'm really looking forward to seeing explored, is how the addition of rituals that anyone can perform changes the landscape of high level challenges.
A nod to the increased availability of rituals would be nice to have in an AP. I'm not sure how that would be represented narratively, though. A global revelation by Nethys, perhaps. Any ideas?
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I was looking forward to an interesting discussion about actual rule changes [...].One thing that pops out to me as having some very interesting potential—How can rituals change the types of stories being told? Depending on exactly what spells are being transformed into rituals, you could have an adventure where a high level drow fighter has gathered the components to create a new moon with a wish and create an eclipse that allows them to lead a warband against the surface, or where the rogue leading a thieve's or assassin's guild is creating networks of portals that allow his agents to threaten even the most heavily guarded individuals and estates. That is definitely one element of the new edition that I'm really looking forward to seeing explored, is how the addition of rituals that anyone can perform changes the landscape of high level challenges.
It certainly gives the DM a lot of freedom. Powerful effects that dramatically change the landscape or story can be a lot of fun. Less so when they can be spammed 3 times a day. Having an effect be rare because you need these ingredients, 4 sacrifices, a week of ritualistic dancing, during the new moon on a winter solstice makes the effect more interesting and prevents the spamming. Legend of the Seeker comes to mind. Bad guy cast a spell that trapped the hero in a dream. Just cast if from dozens or hundreds of miles away. Super effective but the moons only lined up for the spell to work every few decades or so. This made for an interesting episode. It would have been garbage if the villain could just cast that every time. Fantasy is just full of similar effects. Not having to have a high level caster always be the villain is nice as well.
Where you find the rules does not fundamentally change the rules.
It does when the game system views the core rules as different from other rules. Especially since the Campaign Setting book draws a distinction from core races and other races. I thought you didn't like this conversation?
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Clan Daggers for dwarves! Elves dying earlier! Both need to be explained.Eh, the "Elves Dying Earlier" I'd argue is just simplifying the maximum age rules, and even increased over the average max age from PF1e by around 50 years.
It could be a simplification and I would be fine with that if it is their explanation. But if I remember correctly max age for an elf was 750.
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I was looking forward to an interesting discussion about actual rule changes [...].One thing that pops out to me as having some very interesting potential—How can rituals change the types of stories being told? Depending on exactly what spells are being transformed into rituals, you could have an adventure where a high level drow fighter has gathered the components to create a new moon with a wish and create an eclipse that allows them to lead a warband against the surface, or where the rogue leading a thieve's or assassin's guild is creating networks of portals that allow his agents to threaten even the most heavily guarded individuals and estates. That is definitely one element of the new edition that I'm really looking forward to seeing explored, is how the addition of rituals that anyone can perform changes the landscape of high level challenges.
I'm definitely keen on exploring the possibilities of that! You can have it be part of the "job" of a King or Queen in certain nations to conduct important rituals for matters of state and national interest. You can have "shrine maidens" maintaining blessings upon an area or sealing away a great evil, who no longer have to actually be clerics or druids. There's a lot of space for cool stuff here.
Since that actually IS a place where the rules change affects setting detail, it'd be interesting to see an explanation of that. :)