Wizards vs. Clerics


Prerelease Discussion


So with the wizard blog out of the hedges (see what I did there?), it strikes me that the comparison between clerics and wizards is on. While of course a healer might be important (so far he hasn't been). The cleric already gets a healthy amount of advantages that could point into a direction. Yes of course by tradition the wizard has the more flexible spell list, but the cleric could prove to be more efficient. With a powerful spell list on his own and no need to add it to a pesky book and more ways to customize the character up to 3 domains with up to 6 powers (probably not the wisest way to spend those feats, but hey its possible). In the long term if you truly want to have one certain spell that isnt on the cleric list, you probably find a deity you can ask nicely. Sarenrae already hands out those fireballs if thats your stick.

Also clerics get a boatload full of relevant harm/heal spells (always highest level). Whereas a wizard will add 1 spell of the highest level. Both always have cantrips available so thats not taking the cake for one side.

So several points: do you see a lack of customisation when it comes to wizard? Both classes have been starved in the past with meaningful longterm customisation. But the cleric truly seems ahead with additional domains.

Do you think that the wizard spell list, will pull the class "ahead" or even out the playfield, especially with the core spells only? And a lot of probable nerfs to magic in general.

By your guts, you have a fighter, a rogue and a paladin goblin in your party, would you rather take a cleric or a wizard, with the information given?


Wermut wrote:

So with the wizard blog out of the hedges (see what I did there?), it strikes me that the comparison between clerics and wizards is on. While of course a healer might be important (so far he hasn't been). The cleric already gets a healthy amount of advantages that could point into a direction. Yes of course by tradition the wizard has the more flexible spell list, but the cleric could prove to be more efficient. With a powerful spell list on his own and no need to add it to a pesky book and more ways to customize the character up to 3 domains with up to 6 powers (probably not the wisest way to spend those feats, but hey its possible). In the long term if you truly want to have one certain spell that isnt on the cleric list, you probably find a deity you can ask nicely. Sarenrae already hands out those fireballs if thats your stick.

Also clerics get a boatload full of relevant harm/heal spells (always highest level). Whereas a wizard will add 1 spell of the highest level. Both always have cantrips available so thats not taking the cake for one side.

So several points: do you see a lack of customisation when it comes to wizard? Both classes have been starved in the past with meaningful longterm customisation. But the cleric truly seems ahead with additional domains.

Do you think that the wizard spell list, will pull the class "ahead" or even out the playfield, especially with the core spells only? And a lot of probable nerfs to magic in general.

By your guts, you have a fighter, a rogue and a paladin goblin in your party, would you rather take a cleric or a wizard, with the information given?

Well, ignoring the Paladin Goblin... I'll just assume it is a Paladin as I detest those green skinned buggers... I'd rather have the Cleric.

Why?

Because healing via a CLW wand isn't a thing anymore. You need to expend resonance to do it. You don't need to expend resonance to get a spell cast on you from a Cleric.

A Fighter, A Paldain, and a Rogue can bring enough damage to bring down a hardy target. Toss a healer in and you're fine. Without a healer they might still be fine, but they are more likely to be in a bad spot if they get hurt.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Considering that there have been reports of non-Clerics functioning as the party's main source of healing I don't think a Cleric is strictly necessary. It's probably the most reliable healing source in the game with all other options included, especially if you need burst healing in combat or want to get it done quickly, but people have been running with parties that have multiple Wands of CLW instead of a healer in PF1 for years. That said, given the limited info we do have I'd want a Cleric for the condition removal they can provide. My d20 rolls are already bad enough without taking Blind and Sickened penalties too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The wizard spell list has always been the place where wizard customization happens, but because it is flexible, it is often difficult to look at the wizard "by the numbers" and do a comparison against other classes. Both look pretty well balanced and I think the way they are balancing spells by removing level based variables is a good idea/much easier to plan around. A lot of the the cleric spell powers look underwhelming to me, and like they will be available as rituals (or rituals will be able to cover a lot of the same effects.) I am curious about what kind of wizard spells get moved into rituals as well. If it is most of their utility spells, and other characters can pick them up to, then the need for a wizard will drop dramatically. If spells like haste and fly and invisibility and heightened senses and dimensional door are still primarily wizard only spells, then I'll stick with the wizard.


I havent seen school abilities or all the wizard feats so right now its hard to say. The cleric definitely sounds more interesting to play with the small sample we have been given.


Planpanther wrote:
I havent seen school abilities or all the wizard feats so right now its hard to say. The cleric definitely sounds more interesting to play with the small sample we have been given.

Yeah the Domain blog certainly helped a lot since it not only covered the rudimentary basics on domain but also on how gods work and what they provide. Wonder what fridays topic will be.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It seems like a Paladin can provide pretty solid healing, and this group doesn't need the martial proficiency of a cleric much... So I'd rather have the better spell list of the wizard.

Liberty's Edge

I'd rather get the Wizard because I have not yet seen trace of any slaughter of these 2 sacred cows :

Offense is better than defense

Wizard"s list is stronger in the offense than Cleric's list


So the spellist will remain the staple of the wizard and thats what makes him usefull. But what about customisation? The layered design of the cleric (choose god, choose domain, potentially choose negative or positive channeling, choose daily spells out of all spells available) is very tempting in regards to (choose school or not I am not your mother! And buy yourself some spells!).


The Raven Black wrote:

I'd rather get the Wizard because I have not yet seen trace of any slaughter of these 2 sacred cows :

Offense is better than defense

Wizard"s list is stronger in the offense than Cleric's list

At odd levels, Cleric can use one action to heal about half their health. At first level, they can do this five or six times per day. Any spell that's going to take out half your health is going to take at least two actions, so you've got some pretty solid action economy advantages.

Liberty's Edge

Channel has great action economy in PF1. But in most cases, the Cleric will use their action to help finish the combat faster

Disabling your opponents ASAP has been a tried and true method of surviving in this game for ages


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, but a Heal can potentially be done in conjunction with offense. Heal, Stride, Strike. Heal, Verbal+Somatic spell. Heal, Strike, Strike.

I think defensive actions in general will be better this time around.

Liberty's Edge

I think PF2 wants to avoid rocket tag

Beyond that it's still a game of kill or be killed

Even defense is only valuable as a way to keep your party's offense high

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