So far I like it...But...

[Wolvencroft]

As said, I like everything so far & can't wait to run 2e when it comes out. I just want an to know that one major thing ain't gonna happen. I hope that you guys at Paizo don't change the geography.
I just spent nearly 300gp laminating a ton of pathfinder maps & I don't want them to be obsolete.
When D&D made 4e they totally changed the geography of the Forgotten Realms & that killed me.
So please keep the geography the same.

[Deadmanwalking]

They've said that the only setting changes are those in published Adventures.

As far as I know the only 'geography' changes are maybe there being a couple of things that should be marked on the map in Varisia that aren't on the PF1 maps, and the Worldwound having technically closed (though that region is still a demon haunted wasteland).

Well, and some internal stuff in the River Kingdoms, but that's probably not on most maps anyway.

[Weather Report]

Hopefully they have realised the backlash of edition/rule changes effecting lore, started with that Time of Troubles garbage. Always stick with the original campaign setting book/boxed set, all followers are imposters, and ruin the integrity.

[Planpanther]

Agreed. You can make interesting setting changes that dont ruin past materials. /signed

[Igwilly]

I find it highly unlikely.

4e FR was a big mistake, even from a 4e fan like me. Nuking the setting to that extend is just bad business. It's no wonder that WotC's main focus on fluff was fixing FR. I guess Paizo knows that.

[Weather Report]

Igwilly wrote:

I find it highly unlikely.

4e FR was a big mistake, even from a 4e fan like me. Nuking the setting to that extend is just bad business. It's no wonder that WotC's main focus on fluff was fixing FR. I guess Paizo knows that.

Yes, that was unfortunate, they did not do a lore change/cataclysm/plague what-have-you with 3rd Ed, they stated "it is looking at the Realms through a different lens" to explain the rules changes, fine.

Funnily enough, 2nd Ed was a big perpetrator of this campaign setting shattering nonsense, aside from Al-Qadim (top setting of all time), they brought out these wonderful, evocative settings, and would immediately set about massacring them with the novel line and modules:

Dark Sun: Prism Pentad, ruined everything.
Ravenloft: Grand Conjunction, ruined everything.
Planescape: Faction War, ruined everything.

[Fuzzypaws]

Weather Report wrote:

Igwilly wrote:

I find it highly unlikely.

4e FR was a big mistake, even from a 4e fan like me. Nuking the setting to that extend is just bad business. It's no wonder that WotC's main focus on fluff was fixing FR. I guess Paizo knows that.

Yes, that was unfortunate, they did not do a lore change/cataclysm/plague what-have-you with 3rd Ed, they stated "it is looking at the Realms through a different lens" to explain the rules changes, fine.

Funnily enough, 2nd Ed was a big perpetrator of this campaign setting shattering nonsense, aside from Al-Qadim (top setting of all time), they brought out these wonderful, evocative settings, and would immediately set about massacring them with the novel line and modules:

Dark Sun: Prism Pentad, ruined everything.
Ravenloft: Grand Conjunction, ruined everything.
Planescape: Faction War, ruined everything.

Yeah. In some cases they actually got off to a good start but just /kept going/ when they should have left well enough alone.... the first Dark Sun book was fine, but everything after that basically pissed all over the setting.

"Stick with the original boxed set" is definitely a truism and one I've been hearing since before I even found online D&D forums. XD

[Weather Report]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

Weather Report wrote:

Igwilly wrote:

I find it highly unlikely.

4e FR was a big mistake, even from a 4e fan like me. Nuking the setting to that extend is just bad business. It's no wonder that WotC's main focus on fluff was fixing FR. I guess Paizo knows that.

Yes, that was unfortunate, they did not do a lore change/cataclysm/plague what-have-you with 3rd Ed, they stated "it is looking at the Realms through a different lens" to explain the rules changes, fine.

Funnily enough, 2nd Ed was a big perpetrator of this campaign setting shattering nonsense, aside from Al-Qadim (top setting of all time), they brought out these wonderful, evocative settings, and would immediately set about massacring them with the novel line and modules:

Dark Sun: Prism Pentad, ruined everything.
Ravenloft: Grand Conjunction, ruined everything.
Planescape: Faction War, ruined everything.

Yeah. In some cases they actually got off to a good start but just /kept going/ when they should have left well enough alone.... the first Dark Sun book was fine, but everything after that basically pissed all over the setting.

"Stick with the original boxed set" is definitely a truism and one I've been hearing since before I even found online D&D forums. XD

Yeah, the only good thing to come out of the revised Dark Sun boxed set is that cloth map.

Spelljammer did not get hit as bad, but they seemed to try to take it in another direction with the Astromundi Cluster (lame and boring).

Oh, intersting bit of obscure lore, some might find interesting, in the 2nd Ed Dragonlance Wild Elves product, there are drow on Krynn, in The Valley off Perfect Silence, they spelljammed there from a world/sphere called Nightlok.

[Tallow]

Weather Report wrote:

Hopefully they have realised the backlash of edition/rule changes effecting lore, started with that Time of Troubles garbage. Always stick with the original campaign setting book/boxed set, all followers are imposters, and ruin the integrity.

I believe that The Forgotten Realms went through four iterations before 4E. And some of their changes were significant, but they didn't "destroy the moon." Destroying the moon is apparently a world building and adventure writing euphemism similar to "jumping the shark." People like consistency on a psychological level, and in real world terms if the moon were to suddenly be gone one day, we'd be devastated.

That being said, each iteration of the FR changes, starting with the Time of Troubles, was significant sure, but I thought was brilliant in the way it made the world feel like a living and breathing entity. Huge events reshaped the world in hundreds and thousands of little ways. I was fascinated and awed everytime these iterations hit the shelf. I was, however, also an avid reader of their novels.

4E effectively destroyed the moon for me. The change was so utterly drastic that I no longer recognized The Forgotten Realms. And to be honest, this had more to do with why I didn't invest in 4E, than the fact I didn't like the system very much. The system could have grown on me and been tolerated.

Golarion is a fantastically rich world with robust history, legend and great stories constantly being told. Each AP tells a Region Shaking story with really fantastic end games. But after following Golarion for over 7 years, it's stale. The fact that over 20 Region Shaking stories, and we have no real changes to Golarion Canon makes it a static, lifeless world to me. Which is why I'm so happy to see the world is being updated with many of these smaller changes.

I also fully appreciate that one of the first things Paizo said, is they are committed to not destroying the moon.

[Weather Report]

Tallow wrote:

Weather Report wrote:

Hopefully they have realised the backlash of edition/rule changes effecting lore, started with that Time of Troubles garbage. Always stick with the original campaign setting book/boxed set, all followers are imposters, and ruin the integrity.

I believe that The Forgotten Realms went through four iterations before 4E. And some of their changes were significant, but they didn't "destroy the moon." Destroying the moon is apparently a world building and adventure writing euphemism similar to "jumping the shark." People like consistency on a psychological level, and in real world terms if the moon were to suddenly be gone one day, we'd be devastated.

That being said, each iteration of the FR changes, starting with the Time of Troubles, was significant sure, but I thought was brilliant in the way it made the world feel like a living and breathing entity. Huge events reshaped the world in hundreds and thousands of little ways. I was fascinated and awed everytime these iterations hit the shelf. I was, however, also an avid reader of their novels.

4E effectively destroyed the moon for me. The change was so utterly drastic that I no longer recognized The Forgotten Realms. And to be honest, this had more to do with why I didn't invest in 4E, than the fact I didn't like the system very much. The system could have grown on me and been tolerated.

That's cool, I can see what you're saying, from a narrative point, but I just didn't like the way the Forgotten Realms Adventures book went out of its way to basically say "The multiverse has changed, because Assassins and Monks are no longer available classes!".

Of course, in some of their 2nd Ed products they referenced/used monks (the Horde boxed set and numerous Kara-Tur accessories), and then they released both classes in the Scarlet Brotherhood accessory, many years later.

The weird thing about the Spellplague, was that they didn't even deliver on that, I remember them saying it was to be like a Roger Dean painting (did some album covers for the band, Yes).

[Staffan Johansson]

Weather Report wrote:

Yeah, the only good thing to come out of the revised Dark Sun boxed set is that cloth map.

I'm somewhat on the fence (still, after over 20 years) regarding revised Dark Sun. I really do love the original setting, with its extremely flavorful description through an unreliable narrator, and its emphasis on savagery and survival. But on the other hand, the setting described felt very static - the feel of the Wanderer's Journal was very much "This is how the world has always been, and this is how it's always going to be."

The Revised Dark Sun instead presented a setting on the verge of great changes. You have city-states in great upheaval because of the loss of their monarchs, and they handle it in different ways. You have an army of dray ready to pour forth from Giustenal and take over Raam. The Kreen empire beyond the Ringing Mountains is on the move due to geological events. And there are many more locations described, with a greater variety. This provides more opportunity for the PCs to do things that matter.

Now, I have no doubt whatsoever that TSR would have ruined this by detailing the results one invasion or the other - I think there was even a book being written about Dregoth's plans at the time TSR went under, and I recall seeing it advertised in one of the last Dark Sun products.

See, what I look for in a setting is not a plot or metaplot. I look for the potential for having different plots. For example, I think the approach Wizards took with Eberron is great - all the books describe the setting at a given point in time, and at that point there are a myriad different things that may or may not happen. This creates lots of possibilities, but none of them are real until they're made such at any given gaming table. If I'm running a campaign about Aundair trying to reclaim the Eldeen Reaches and the PCs trying to stop that through various means, I don't have to worry about a novel coming out that has Aundair instead going to war with Karrnath.

Quote:

Spelljammer did not get hit as bad, but they seemed to try to take it in another direction with the Astromundi Cluster (lame and boring).

Personally, I think Astromundi would have worked better as the start of the product line instead of the end. Focus on the possibilities of wildspace and spelljamming for its own sake, as opposed to as a means of connecting different settings.

[Weather Report]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Weather Report wrote:

Yeah, the only good thing to come out of the revised Dark Sun boxed set is that cloth map.

I'm somewhat on the fence (still, after over 20 years) regarding revised Dark Sun. I really do love the original setting, with its extremely flavorful description through an unreliable narrator, and its emphasis on savagery and survival. But on the other hand, the setting described felt very static - the feel of the Wanderer's Journal was very much "This is how the world has always been, and this is how it's always going to be."

The Revised Dark Sun instead presented a setting on the verge of great changes. You have city-states in great upheaval because of the loss of their monarchs, and they handle it in different ways. You have an army of dray ready to pour forth from Giustenal and take over Raam. The Kreen empire beyond the Ringing Mountains is on the move due to geological events. And there are many more locations described, with a greater variety. This provides more opportunity for the PCs to do things that matter.

Now, I have no doubt whatsoever that TSR would have ruined this by detailing the results one invasion or the other - I think there was even a book being written about Dregoth's plans at the time TSR went under, and I recall seeing it advertised in one of the last Dark Sun products.

See, what I look for in a setting is not a plot or metaplot. I look for the potential for having different plots. For example, I think the approach Wizards took with Eberron is great - all the books describe the setting at a given point in time, and at that point there are a myriad different things that may or may not happen. This creates lots of possibilities, but none of them are real until they're made such at any given gaming table. If I'm running a campaign about Aundair trying to reclaim the Eldeen Reaches and the PCs trying to stop that through various means, I don't have to worry about a novel coming out that has Aundair instead going to war with Karrnath....

I agree with pretty much everything, it's just that they somehow took Dark Sun's balls away, for me, I like meta-plot stuff, as long as it is mainly hooks/background, not reestablishing things, though I do like that Githyanki invasion.

This is actually an important reason why I dig Al-Qadim so much, no interference by writers with their stories, just full of rich lore and hooks to go to town; Wolfgang Baur did an excellent article in an old Dragon, Scimitars Against the Dark, on how to give your Zakharan campaigns a Lovecraftian/Cthulhu-type feel (Forbidden Lore).

[RangerWickett]

If you look at how much the real world has changed since PF1 was published, there have been some upheavals in smaller nations, and new trends are taking hold like anti-immigrant backlash ('I refuse to accept goblins should be treated like real people,' maybe?), but even some major changes with high profile leadership in places like Taldor aren't dramatically changing the geopolitical landscape.

Now, will the fabric of reality change? I don't think so, not to any great extent. I mean, in my home campaign I'm sure as heck having a big world-shaking event coincide with the release of PF2, but that's just a rebalancing of game mechanics, not a visible change to the narrative way people use magic.

[Weather Report]

RangerWickett wrote:

If you look at how much the real world has changed since PF1 was published, there have been some upheavals in smaller nations, and new trends are taking hold like anti-immigrant backlash ('I refuse to accept goblins should be treated like real people,' maybe?), but even some major changes with high profile leadership in places like Taldor aren't dramatically changing the geopolitical landscape.

Really, no need to politicise this thread. Plenty enough of those shenanigans going around.

[LuniasM]

There are a couple APs that could have effects on the setting geography, such as Kingmaker adding a country or Wrath of the Righteous and [REDACTED]. Those are the only ones I know of, but there's a bunch I never read or played either. My bet is any such changes will be minor and not world-changing to the degree that old maps will be useless. May want new ones for specific areas but you likely won't need to redo most of it.